Brian Stanfield

This is exactly what I was running into. Even when sample characters were given, he didn't see how to get there from where he was as a beginner. He was overwhelmed by the flexibility, or rather the openness left him feeling a bit rudderless. Part of the problem was not having a very strong setting to work in, and that's a story for another thread. With a good idea of what the world is supposed to be like, he'd know what his characters are supposed to look like. Then everything begins to affect everything, and it gets even messier! It's hard work being a GM. This is partly why I think a very basic beginner version, with a minimal setting, is the best way to go. The world, nor the characters, would be built to last for an entire campaign, so all those tough questions wouldn't have to be answered. Just a dungeon crawl, or a wilderness exploration, or whatever is good enough to say, "here you stand, now go kick ass and have fun!"

Whelp, that pretty much looks similar to what I've been thinking, except 408 pages seems a bit much for an "out-of-the-box" game.

I'm starting to feel the same way, and I started playing it back in the '80s! After a long time off, and a bunch of new editions, I'm relearning everything again myself. There's so much more now, which I love! But there's a step learning curve. Hence this thread, right? These are good points, and important to remember. That's what was holding my buddy back: he understood the fantasy tropes we are all familiar with, but he didn't understand what they looked like in Fantasy Hero. He appreciated the flexibility, but he was also overwhelmed by it, and couldn't figure out how it would look on paper. I was more than willing to help him do the translations, but he didn't even now where to start asking questions. He wanted to actually look at something and read it, not just depend on my explanation, and that probably ended out making everything worse for him.

Why is it listed in the 5e Star Hero part of the store? Has it been updated?

I have the same experiences with Hero Designer. I'd rather have a book in hand anyway to read the rules as I try things out. As you say, it helps create familiarity. As for the pre-gen, here's the funny part: I sat down with his 11-year-old daughter when I was back home for Thanksgiving and we built a character in half an hour! I just asked her what she wanted to play, and she just started rattling off stuff (a young woman raises by wolves but taught druidry by an old woman who found her in the wilderness, she can talk to animals, control the weather, she lacks social skills, frightens people easily, and defends nature with ferocity). She really got into the spirit and the whole world was open to her. She even came up with her own Complications through the process. I think this is what we're really supposed to be doing when we build characters! I tried the same thing with my buddy, and his decades of experience with D&D and Pathfinder made him really unsure of what he could or should pick, how the different parts related to each other, what templates were more useful, etc. etc. He was crippled by his gaming expertise, stuck trying to figure out if spells or swords were "better," which skills were "better," and things like this. I gave him the "Hero in 2 Pages" to read, and he looked at the combat example document I found somewhere, but it just seemed to confuse him more because now he got derailed in wanting to know all the minutiae of the characteristics in combat, and he spun off into more questions than he could handle. Meanwhile, his little girl just jumped in with both feet and had a blast because I was there to translate everything for her. We never did play over Thanksgiving weekend, which was our plan. I gave him stuff to look at for when I returned for Christmas and New Years, but by then he had read so many different things that he got even more confused, even after I offered to build a character for him. We never did play over the holiday break this time either. This is what got me thinking in the first place. Some sort of document that can give newbies baby-steps, but also give some sort of orientation for more experienced gamers who aren't familiar with the Hero System yet. In two long holiday weekends we got exactly 0 hours of play in. Part of it is my fault, I understand, but I need an easier way to try to teach the game. That is part of what, I think, Hero has to always fight against. Its lack of familiarity is "hard" for experienced gamers, and its complexity is too much for new gamers. In all honesty, when I grabbed the GURPS Lite document that someone mentioned last week, I read and understood it in an hour, enough so that I felt like I could maybe make a character with some people and play a little bit in one evening. We need something like this. Something more than 2 pages, but less than, say, 700, or even the 266 pages of Fantasy Hero Complete.

Have you tried Hero Combat Manager yet? I haven't, but it takes care of a lot of that stuff for you (from what I understand).

I'm inclined to agree with you here. Although I like the utility of pre-gens, I never really like playing them myself. I think a gallery with variations, or groups of templates to choose from (one from race, one from profession, etc.) that are all balanced in terms of points is the better option. So we don't have to create characters that may or may not interest someone based on their own preferences, we only need to offer them a list of choices to pick on their own. It would be a very simple character creation method, but gets their feet wet with some of the choices to be made and how they relate to each other. Someone wants to play a dwarf? Fine. A dwarf archer, you say? I hadn't thought of that. It's weird, but hey, go ahead and pick that skill set to go with the dwarf template. Let's see what happens. There's a little bit of investment in terms of character building, but it doesn't derail into the rabbit hole of research that paralyzed my buddy when he first looked at the character sheet.

I have never looked at Robot Warriors. I'm going to go pick it up now just to see what you're talking about. I notice that they are a special point of explaining the quick-start Battle Game as a way to play the game right away. This is what I'm trying to develop here as a concept.

Yes, in retrospect I think maybe this is the point I was trying to make. I agree. I'm more inclined to say, as has been bought up, "pick 5 spells: 2 attack, 1 defense, 1 utility, and 1 of any kind" just to make things simple. Attack spells can only be cast one at a time, but defense spells and movement spells can be maintained. This would all be revealed in the "build appendix" later.

So let me play devil's advocate here (my own custom professional template?): I started this thread with the idea that I wanted to simplify learning the game rules, but also the character creation rules. So if we give pre-gens it is not teaching a simplified method of character generation. I know I always hated pre-gen characters when I learned a game. That's just me, but as has been pointed out, one of the great strengths of Hero is that it can offer templates without creating undue constraints on character generation. Don't get me wrong, I totally get your point here: learn the game play first and then learn how to build characters. But if we keep adding more to it, as you suggest in multiple parts, that potentially gets to be a huge document again. Would it be a good compromise to offer quick-creation rules? Say choose one race template, which are all built with an equal number of points, and one professional template based on the same number of points, to create the basic framework for the player. Perhaps a list of skills, weapons, and spells to flesh out the basic starting structure. It seems like it would be a step up from a pre-gen in the sense that it offers the flexibility, shows variety, but also get their feet wet while keeping it simple. That way we don't have to limit things to one dwarf fighter, one elven archer, etc., but could have the templates to choose from, all with a tight point cap to keep them equal no matter what you choose. I'm kinda curious to see what these Champions character creation cards are going to look like. I've also brought up the Champions quick character creation in 5th and the Super Hero Gallery in 6th edition, but nobody seems to have an opinion on these things. It seems like the could offer a model for quick, balance character creation.

I tried this before, giving him basics on the magic system I had in mind, and he just said, "show me a list of spells I can choose from." That is fairly instructive for this project, and is partly why I started thinking about it. For him, I think, he was already beyond frustrated and just wanted things to me made as simply as possible. By the time he finally just said, "how about you just make a pre-gen for me," we ran out of time and haven't been able to get back to it since. In addition, Lucius, I let my beginner friend play around with Hero Designer, but it really didn't help him at all because he didn't have any sort of reference point for which skills, talents, etc., were really useful because he didn't yet understand how the game played. Even after I bought all the Fantasy Hero Hero Builder packs he was still not very comfortable or clear about what to choose. He had no rationale in his mind yet. With this in mind, Spence's (and others') suggestion that the build information is provided in an appendix or separate document is a really good idea. Giving a rationale for each build seems like it would be absolutely essential to helping players learn the hows and whys about building a character.

I agree that a multipower doesn't have to be complicated, but now you're running the risk of this getting confusing for a beginner again. A magic multipower is pretty straightforward, but once you start talking about the reserve, spells which aren't part of the multipower, etc., it gets to be potentially confusing. It seems like you could bypass some of the troubles by requiring attack spells to carry the limitations of gestures and concentration, so only one could ever be used at a time. The movement and defensive spells don't have to have these limitations so that they can be maintained from phase to phase. All of this information would be, of course, hidden from view so that they don't have to keep track of this stuff in their first few games.

Thanks for hanging in there! You're right, we need to consider what the GM needs to know right "out of the box" as well. So far we've been focusing on the character creation, with the assumption (perhaps?) that the GM would be the experienced one. But what if the GM was new as well? We covered a lot of what the beginning player needs as far as charts and such. What is the bare minimum a new GM would need? There is a great free download for a GM screen, but it gives all kinds of crazy details. Perhaps we'd need a new, simplified GM screen with all the tables and info in one place. What else?

Very good point. What do you think of the quick-build templates that I brought up before, or the quick-build cards that are coming out this year at High Rock Press? Although I like the simplicity you're bringing to the table, do you think there is merit in offering a simplified character creation method rather than offering a list of pre-gens? With this in mind, Christopher Taylor (IIRC) suggested starting with 100 points, and letting the next 75 come from the introductory adventures. Characters could buy or acquire new skills, etc., as they learn how the game plays. It's not a bad idea at all, and if we gave some base templates to work from we could create some basic characters in a few minutes, and then develop them over time. By the way, I think that we're going with 6e, more specifically Fantasy Hero Complete since that's the one that's actually getting some support at this point. We shouldn't tag an out of print book or ruleset to a beginner product.

And here we run into the problem of a reasonable magic system, yet again. So many threads on this! I guess You already mentioned that what Christopher Taylor has presented looks a lot like a VPP, and I'm inclined to agree if there is some sort of cap on how many spells can be used. This would have to be resolved. But then again, I'm really looking at trying to create something that works for a first-time exposure to Fantasy Hero, and will only run for a few adventures. Once they get their feet wet, with all the data neatly hidden from view but dutifully cited, then they can begin to learn Fantasy Hero Complete. So really, for 5 or so adventures, if there is an arbitrary limit of, say, 5 spells to start with, and then maybe a couple learned along the way from scrolls or something, it gives the players enough to run with. So with that in mind . . . My explicit goal (in this thread only) is to not create something that has to live beyond a few adventures. So there is no need for "reverse engineering" the spells. I would prefer referencing spells from the Hero System Grimoire, but in simplified form as Chris posted, with the more detailed build information cited for their further development. I know my buddy's mind shut down when he looked at spells and saw all of the abbreviations, modifiers, etc. I don't want to dissuade people from having access to this info, but I am really emphasizing hiding the technical stuff away for another day (but making it easy to find when the time is right). What I imagine all of this doing is to create some quick characters and have some adventures, and then discover everything they'd do differently with their characters now that they understand how the game plays a little better. This was my buddy's suggestion, and it makes a lot of sense. Nobody ever likes their first character they build for these very reasons. The more we can strip out the frontloaded information, at least for absolute beginners, while still staying true to the game, the better off they will be. They can forget about what all the terminology means and just focus on playing. The less technical jargon we can hide, the better. This is, again, for beginners only. This isn't intended to be a substitute for the full game. Computer games always have those hokey tutorials where you press the buttons when they tell you to, and move to pick up that highlighted item, etc. I'm not trying to recreate that, but I do have in mind something where players can whip something up and try it out with as little reading and preparation as possible. Included in this concern is making sure there is as simplified an interface as possible so they don't get hung up on the data. What I don't want to happen is for someone to give up because those spells seems cool, but can't figure out what "RKA 2d6 (vs. ED), Area of Effect (30m Line, Nonselective; +1/4) (37 APs); Beam (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), No Range (-1/2), Restrainable (-1/2). Total Cost: 13 points" actually means. I seriously watched my friend go into a shell when he was presented with the spells for Fantasy Hero. He was excited up until that point, and then just flipped to some other stuff that would hopefully make sense. I literally watched his interest fade away as he looked through the spells. Even with cool names and explanations, he still got hungup on the terminology which he felt he needed to know. My goal is simply to say, "Hey, there's all this stuff to know in the complete rules, but here's how it works in simple form. Don't worry about all that build information and other stuff. You can find more details in Fantasy Hero Complete when you're ready for it."

I like the idea of characters starting with 100 points and working their way up through the first adventures. As for the difference in talent levels, I'm down with that. But I'm wondering, if you keep the talent system, if you'd have a cap to the number of spells available? As Cantriped pointed out, it's starting to look like a VPP. I'm as concerned with the number of spells available as the AP cap because if you make the spells free, a player could have a ridiculous number of spells. If you introduce some limit to the number of spells known you'd have to introduce a mechanic for that. 2xINT number of spells? Total of Real Points can't exceed the AP cap in the talent (in which case, it is a VPP). I guess for a beginners' product you could select just a handful to start the game and not worry about all of this stuff, right? As for the magical skills and spells, I think matching the Hero System Grimoire is the most attractive option. Schools and spells are already there, and you could just pick a few for beginners. Then you don't have to worry about explaining the builds, you only have to reference the book and page numbers of the already-existing spells. I'm wondering if you've based this (roughly speaking) on the Kestrel Grimoire you created?

This is pretty much what I was shooting for at the beginning. The stuff up front can have references to other books so the details may be looked up if desired. But you throw stat blocks up there, no matter how simple, and people get freaked out and wonder what they're supposed to do with that information which they don't understand yet, and then begin to dread that they need to know it all before they can learn the parts. At least this is what I watched happen to my buddy (remember, he is the inspiration for this thread). If it references the Grimoire then the details can be learned when the player is ready.

This is starting to look like the problem I was wrestling with in my other post about VPP magic. Your concern about game balance is the big one in Fantasy Hero. But I'm more inclined to say that warriors and wizards begin to distinguish themselves based on their point-builds over time. Things like telekinesis, flight, and fancy magic stuff gets to be more expensive, and so isn't as much of a concern for beginners. But as they progress, the points balance out. At least in theory. This is why I always require wizards to pay for their spells, always. If spells are treated as other equipment, then they could amass piles of devastating spells for no cost, which then leads to the unbalancing effect you point out. If they have to pay points, you will have: Wizards who can cast and kill things, and do other skill stuff (navigate, speak languages, etc) but less effectively because they decided to spend their points on spells, such as warp time and space, summon things, use telekinesis, heal wounds etc, etc, but only as much as they can afford. So they can choose between a few more powerful spells (which won't be available for a beginner with an AP cap), or become more generalized and therefore not overly dominant in the game. Warriors who can fight and kill things, and do other skills stuff a lot more effectively​ because they'd have spent their points on CSLs and talents that the wizard can't because he's specialized in spells. ​This is of course a problem of defining the magic system as a whole. How does END fit in (another one of my most recent threads), and stuff like that. But if there is no point cost, it seems like one of the most efficient things balancing magic in the game is lost.

I hadn't really thought about the activation roll process. I just always used it as an assumption (and to keep costs down). I never really liked the idea of offensive spells always automatically "hitting" without a roll, although I understand the desire to keep the number of rolls down. It seems like it would be unbalancing.

I'm curious too. My buddy (the source of this thread) was having enough trouble with understanding how all the characteristics and skills worked together along with combat. When we sorted that out and he ran into the powers section of Fantasy Hero Complete, he just shut down like he ran into a wall. The powers, while the engine that makes Hero System work, are admittedly not easy. So with that in mind, I'm thinking a simple skill-based system would be the way to go for a basic beginner, with a list of spells to chose from (extracted form the Hero System Grimoire) in order to keep things simple. The spells would be grouped according to different types of magic, and maybe a simple explanation with the AP and real cost included. The reason why I'm thinking this would work is that it would avoid the 100 pages of powers and modifiers in the middle of the book. A spell list is not as fun as making your own spells, but again this is for beginners who probably won't be building their own stuff right out of the box anyway. But if the spell lists match the HS Grimoire then they can be used as learning tools for understanding how the powers work. After the first few adventures, and maybe some curiosity about different spells, then perhaps they'd be ready to read about the powers, using the complete spell builds from the Grimoire as examples to fiddle with and expand on until they are ready to build their own. By this point, they'd be much more experienced, and the campaign would be more fleshed out and ready for more advanced play. Just a hunch on my part. . . .

I think that's part of Champions LARP . . . . This could be a game changer for Fantasy Hero, though!

To Eisenmann, Christopher Taylor, and Cantriped: I love your ideas! For the time being, let's leave production costs and logistics out of consideration. Brainstorm without constraint! The cards have come up many times. Has anybody noticed the announcement from High Rock Press https://highrockpress.com/blogs/news/high-rock-press-production-schedule-2 that they will be producing character creation cards for Champions? Anybody have any idea how these cards will work? This would work even better for Fantasy Hero, it seems, because a lot of things like spells and weapons can be pre-fabbed. The character classes and races could also make for great starting-points for building characters with cards. Contriped, you seem to be right in line with this sort of idea. Equipment cards, complication cards, etc., are a great idea. Eisenmann, I really like your idea of using little beads or whatever, or Cantriped's tokens, to track different stats. This is visually intuitive. The only possible problem I can see is that players need to keep track of specific numbers of STUN, for example, to determine whether their characters are stunned (compared to their CON). Perhaps this may be one of those rules that could be eliminated for basic play, but it's pretty basic to the game. Do you use a card for the aquarium stones to show what the pool is, and what is used? It's possible to indicate "if x number of STUN is moved from your pool, you are stunned for one phase," or something like that. What do you do? With all of that being said, I mentioned this before, but it's come full-circle: anybody remember the Quick Character Generator in Champions 5e? It has all the archetypical character types (brick, speedster, etc.) and variations on those. This would work really easily for fantasy, as I already pointed out. Does anybody have any experience with using the Quick Generator?

One of the problems I always had with learning new games was that their unique worlds has different rules and archetypes, etc., which made it harder for me to learn (at least in my own mind). If I'm used to D&D character classes and races, it's hard to shift to something different. As you point out, it's a meta-problem, but a real one. I'm picturing using the traditional (i.e. D&D) tropes for the game in term of classes, races, spells, weapons, economy, etc. This makes the transition a little more intuitive. As a side note, what I do not want to include is a level system and Vancian magic. These two things are the exact reasons why I turned to Fantasy Hero in the first place in the '80s! Your introductory adventure is a great idea. I think I may have read a similar post from you in another thread before, and I really like the built-in situations that give a player their first combat, skills tests, new contacts, and XP.

No worries, everyone. I don't think anyone was trying to derail anything. Thanks for the input you've given so far. Everyone has really good ideas on what can be done, but what I was hoping was that, rather than theorizing about what is scaring off the newbies, I could actually get some insight from the newbies themselves. Eisenmann's last comment seems to sum up how largely unsuccessful this has been. I do appreciate your suggestions though.

I'm going to venture a guess that you're reading the past two pages of posts in the same way I am: why has this backslid into a rules debate about healing? These are the complex discussions that, while interesting and important, are exactly what intimidate the newbies from posting. Let's try to stay on track here. . . .