Brian Stanfield

This reminds me of another thought I had earlier. My assumption is that a group of newbies will probably have an experienced GM to lead them. I think that's a safe assumption, in which case a lot of this stuff is taken care of by the rules shepherd. What I'm interested in is if there's a way to "dumb it down" enough so that players can learn even without an experienced GM. A few people in this thread have talked about starting from scratch, which would scare the hell out of me, but some people are game for that. Is there a way to help them out without an experienced GM to pre-generate 12 characters to choose from, etc., as you describe? This is all simply to edify my curiosity: how much can we trim away for the sake of simplicity, yet still maintain what makes Hero unique?

So I'll mark you down for "not interested in contributing" to this project . . . .

I ran out of my likes-quotes for the day, so I thought I'd acknowledge this another way. I love your work, and have much of it. For now I'm looking at this as an open-source approach to a beginners' guide. I'd love if Hero Games were to support it in the end, but I don't expect it. I'm just looking for a way to help try to reverse what looks like a contraction of Fantasy Hero.

But without a beginner's book, there is no new community and no need for a full product line. I know you're familiar with this catch-22, and I don't disagree, but a baby step is needed to break inertia. Perhaps a successful beginner's product, independently produced, will create a demand for a product line. Anyway, that's why I'm dragging this out into the light again. I'd really like to hear what beginners actually want, and try to get away from years of veterans trying to tell beginners what they should want. The books that are intended for beginners are really not as helpful as they think. They are the same books boiled down and re-served, with the same old tired explanations about how to learn the system, without acknowledging that maybe there's another way to teach it. I look forward to your input because you seem to have a clear idea of what could help.

This is a shame. I'm going to try to do something about this. I've seen you discuss this problem before, and I can see where you're coming from. HERO spent years generating new genre books, rules supplements, and things like that. But they were never very good introductions for new people. Even the Basic Rulebook is a bit dense for someone whose never played before. It may take a little time before I can plan this out, but I'm really interested in coming up with a better way to introduce new people to the Hero System.

Awesome! It looks like you pretty much got bit by the same bug as most of us. One book leads to another . . . . I like Chris Goodwin's introduction as well, and don't want to step on his great work. I'm not trying got steal his thunder, but even he will admit that we've all played Hero for so long that we don't remember what its like to look at the rules for the first time. So this thread is intended to allow some beginners to give some input into what kind of product they'd like to see. What would be the most helpful to you for learning the rules for the first time?

This is more like what I'm talking about. It's not that I want to eliminate rules. I want to present the basic rules so that new players can have a fun new experience, and then want to learn more. I remember the Basic D&D set (the little red book), and it was perfect. It was simple, only a few choices, and then an adventure or two. And then came the Expert set, and more rules. The first module I remember was The Keep on the Borderlands, which added a few more rules as it introduced the setting. Plenty of adventures there. And by the time Advanced D&D came out, I was hungry for more rules! This is the path that I want to try to recreate for Fantasy Hero. So easy first-builds would have some class and race templates, some skill sets, a magic system and spells (without all the Hero arcana . . . yet), and a setting for some first adventures. Every step of the way would document where to look for more rules and examples in the other books, but in an unobtrusive way that can be ignored for a while until the rules begin to make sense. Then curiosity will lead new players into the larger ruleset.

This is what my buddy struggled with. Apart from the starting values, he was lost with regard to what was "good," what was "great," etc. He understood he couldn't be great at everything, but he couldn't even grasp what "good enough" was yet. Of course, that's an experience issue, but perhaps some examples would help. ​The "powered by Hero" idea is interesting and has come up several times in other threads. I like that. I also am thinking of a skin that can be used to translate the material in a very basic way, as an introduction to Fantasy Hero. Like a first step into the larger world of Fantasy Hero Complete, which is also another step into the larger world of HERO System core rules. ​I like this too. I'm thinking lots of this kind of summary and reference would help. Would it be better as an introductory few pages giving an overview of all the terminology, or is it better to give it at it comes up, understanding that some terminology hasn't been covered yet? What do you think would be the most useful presentation of something like this?

Hi ArcaneArchitect. Thanks for your input! I really am hoping we can get some more beginner involved in this so I can figure out what needs to be included in a beginners' guide. The Damage Classes thing is something that is based on Active Points, which is how they are defined in FHC 183, but unless you see the chart that usually goes with this in other books, it's hard to grasp. DCs for Normal Damage are generally in d6. DCs for Killing Damage are in increments of thirds of a die (1d6, 1d6+1, 1 1/2 d6, etc.). Also, unless you totally understand how the powers work with Active Points, the DC stuff sounds like gobbledygook! So learning the powers is a huge hurdle for newbies. As you say, they are essential to the HERO System, but they are hard to wrap your head around as a beginner. And the info is spread all over the place so that, unless you're used to how Hero lays its book out, you feel a little lost. Or a lot lost. Which is why I started this thread. I'd like to come up with some sort of skin for Fantasy Hero to act as an introduction, in very basic form, for beginners. I'm thinking templates for classes and races, a simple magic system with pre-generated spells without the power-build information (although with plenty of references to other books to help facilitate the transition to building them yourself), a weapons and equipment list, and a basic setting that can be easily added to. Then whole idea is to help create characters in a very short time, and then a handful of encounters in the setting to get everyone going as quickly and easily as possible. What do you think of this kind of idea? What do you see as the essential information that absolutely must be presented (and what can be cut for a basic introduction). I'm curious what a beginner who is still wrestling with Fantasy Hero Complete thinks about these things. Welome, and thanks for your input!

This is a great summary, but there is one thing to correct (I think): PD still applies to Stun, even in Killing Attacks. The character would take 3 Body and 7 Stun in this example. There is a long explanation with examples on HS6e2 page 103.

Don't worry! Keep in mind, I started this thread with the idea that beginners are having a hard time learning all the rules. I don't want to replace the rules, I just am looking for a way to re-skin them for beginners to learn in a very quick and easy way. The powers, while making HERO awesome, are also overwhelming. My buddy's face literally went blank when he hit that part of the book. I tried to explain that everything in the game is built with the powers (monsters, spells, weapons, etc.), and he hit a wall. He understands it in principle, but really just wanted some easier baby steps to help ease him into the game. As a GM, I know that's my job, and as you say this is an ongoing argument. What I'm interested in is not whether the rules are good (they are), but what are some of the things newbies are looking for to help simplify the learning process. I'm really just looking for a first step to encourage them to then want to go on and learn more about he powers and how the building process works. The idea is not to dump the toolbox, but rather strip things down for a Fantasy Hero Beginner (as someone else has called it) to act as a way into the toolbox. My plan is to come up with something that will reference the larger rulebooks, and ease a transition into the larger world of HERO System.

Speaking of font, is there a way to change the default settings for these forums?

This would not be a bad thing. Your hobby horse pops up in different threads and is one of the many reasons I have started considering this issue. In fact, my buddy looked through the download section of herogames and found an Excel version of the character sheet that did all the calculations for him and he immediately gravitated toward that. I tried to let him use my HeroDesigner and that went right out the door. It's too wide open. Even after I spent the better part of a week building prefabs and templates, it really didn't help him at all. I purchased the FH6 character pack, and it didn't help either. I think maybe he's a pen and paper guy all the way (so am I). Some of the exports for HD simulate the stripped-down needs of a character sheet, but they each have their own problems and I don't really want to spend the time coming up with a different layout. I new paper character sheet, as you point out, seems to be in order. Characteristics, skills/perks/etc., spells, equipment, and the hit location chart should be right there. I can't believe they got rid of that chart in the new character sheet! I think it may be another issue you've brought up, or at least it is another similar issue, but the presentation of the material really needs​ to have a fantasy feel. Character sheet, images in the book, even the font should all help set the mood. The original Fantasy Hero, IIRC, used a sword for section breaks. It's simple little things like that that help set the mood. That's a small complaint, but to the eyes of a new customer, this is why they picked up the game in the first place: they want to play a game that feels like fantasy. This is partly why I'm so disappointed with Fantasy Hero Complete as a product (not as a concept).

Ah, yes, now we're getting down to business. Thank you! This is what I'm looking for. ​I'm not going to respond to the rules issues (Martian Logic, et al). As you rightly point out, this is how the game was built, and is a separate consideration. I'm looking for how we can better translate the game, as it is, to new folks who want to learn. ​This is a great way to describe what my buddy was struggling with. He said almost exactly these same things when we spent Christmas looking through the books and stuff. His reaction was, "Where are some charts for me to look at?" My answer was, well, here's one, there's another one elsewhere, look in the back of the book for another, and the Damage Class chart isn't in Fantasy Hero Complete at all, so I'll grab a different book for you to look at. He wanted to look at charts to ground himself, and I think this is a very valuable insight you have presented. It's not that the terms all fit together, but how they fit together that is puzzling. In all honesty, Older character sheets used to include starting characteristics so that players could look at what is "standard" for a beginning player. This one little fact is so intuitively useful, and it's been removed from the later edition character sheets. And when I gave him an equipment list to play with (from Fantasy Hero 6), he could see weapons and how they fit in, and then things started to click a little more. As for balance, I think you bring up an interesting problem: how do we actually see​ game balance. Those of us raised on D&D are used to looking for levels, classes, and such. But in all honesty, when I picked up D&D 5e last spring (after a long hiatus from AD&D), my mind was squirming just as much. DC? What happened to my thief's skills? How many bonus actions do I get? I jumped in with both feet and learned as I went. D&D makes that easy. But I immediately saw all these unbalancing things going on: cunning actions, bonus actions, things like that, gave some players lots of actions, and I got to shoot one measly arrow and then wait for next turn. Each game will have these issues. But to come back around to Fantasy Hero, the points are how we compare and show game balance. This needs to be emphasized more, I think, in the introduction to Hero System. To go back to your Zen-like exercise, it seems to me that the best way to clear the mind up front is to intentionally and explicitly clear out levels, classes, etc., and drive home the point system. This is the primary reason I switched from D&D: I didn't want the constraint of classes. Plus the combat is so much more fun for creative players. So, familiarity is needed, which as has been pointed out, requires a stable setting in which to present the rules. So that seems to be my first step: create a basic, standard setting, and then explain the standard fantasy tropes in that context. In addition, it seems that putting the charts up front gives some of that feel for the game on first view. They shouldn't be hidden in the back of the book in appendices. Thanks for your input. Give me more!

Yes! This! This is exactly what I'm talking about! A list of spells and their effects is infinitely more useful to a beginner than how it is built. That's more advanced stuff, and is the eventual goal of players who really love the system, but as far as simplicity and ease of use, including the "recipe" with each character, spell, weapon, etc. is just information overload! When newbies see all the crazy modifiers and the different kinds of calculations going on, it seems to be a real turnoff. If I can hide much of it for beginners, I think it would be especially useful!

I think the basic gist of what everyone is saying is that, if you match the Damage Classes, damage will be similar. It just depends on what you want to emphasize in the campaign (gritty realism or golden age of comics?). The other consideration is what kind of defenses do you see being used in your game. Lots of armor? Killing damage is more important. Street clothes? Normal damage is less lethal. The game is built to use both, but you can choose one or the other if you want for simplicity's sake. I always use both (so you don't have someone trying to stab a door open: see below). One other intuitive example that may help: A knife works great on a person, but it's lousy for busting through a door. My impression has always been that the game is trying to simulate these two kinds of situations with its two kinds of damage. They are both integrated to work together in a game through the use of Damage Classes. This keeps everything (mostly) balanced. As far as this goes, think of the fireball as an explosion (although there are a lot of different ways to build it). It's the impact and the knock back (another game element) that does the damage. You can make it a killing blast if you'd like, or you can add advantages to make the damage continue through burning, but those are all different considerations regarding the basic attack: a blast. Remember that the special effects are a description of the blast, so a lightning bolt, fireball, or gale-force wind all do the same kind of "Normal" Damage. You can fiddle with the finer effects to suit your need. ​As for the goblins, it's a really useful aspect of this game that with a points-build approach you can always generally balance the players with their foes. A party with 600 total points would do well against a single 600 point monster, a group of 10 100-point normal humans, or whatever. This is the reason why I love the Hero System. Game balance is always one of the prime considerations! Players may try to find a way to min-max the rules, but you have a whole group of active forums here where really good and creative rule-hawks can help you figure out particular answers!

If I do actually design something, I'll probably leave out the powers altogether. For a fantasy setting, the spells are what matter and they can be presented in a pre-packaged way. I do like your idea of inverting the presentation, with combat first. I know that one of the things that my buddy was confused about was what role each characteristic had in combat. If you don't know what OCV or PD is, you don't know if you've created a character with good or bad characteristics. If you teach the combat first, it naturalizes the other stuff. Of course, teaching combat without first discussing the characteristics may be a bit tough as well. . . . As with most of these issues, it's a chicken-egg problem.

There is a quick character generation section in Champions 5e which is really interesting. It seems they do a great job of fleshing out the archetypes, and then use them to make quick character generation possible. I think this has some interesting possibilities in fantasy, since many of the archetypes are pretty standard, and the races offer a second layer of variability. I saw that High Rock Press is going to produce Champions character creation cards, and this seems like a really cool idea for beginning characters who don't need to see how the sausage is made. Just mash up some things and get them playing as soon as possible. Let them explore the combat system and other mechanics by playing them, and then let them dig further into the character creation.

The magic systems! I know you've seen a few of my posts about magic. Sooooo many options! So what I'd like to do is create a really simple magic system (like a skill-based system) and leave it at that. As you say, I'd just hard-code it into the setting, and then offer spells from the HS Grimoire in a very boiled down way, and call it good for the first campaign. This makes it easy for the GM, and then perhaps everyone would be ready to explore more detailed character creating, etc.

I'm trying to build it myself, but I also want to do it in a way that might also help other people. Really, I think everyone ought to be playing Hero games, but there's just not good ways to get them into it unless they're already invested somehow. Fantasy Hero Complete is really more like a recap summary for experienced players. It doesn't give newbies what they really need: a setting and some starting points. Seriously, what new player would read that book and then feel prepared to create an entire world for players to play in?! It's intimidating enough to create a character for the first time, imagine trying to do that for every NPC, villain, monster, etc.?! As you say, I'm on my own here, but think maybe this can become a group project if we can figure out the core basics that a newbie needs to get started. I'm hoping we actually can get some newbies into this conversation!

Heh, I don't know how that escaped my attention. That's a big DUH on my part. Thanks for pointing it out. I've seen this as well. I actually grabbed it and planned on using it on our first adventure, but never got through the character creation process. I'd like to create something similar to this with the rules included in a stripped down version. That's a great writeup. I've seen it before, but it didn't occur to me to direct my friend to it. It's a good overview of the whole system! I was thinking of the same thing. Sort of like a Players Handbook for new players. There was something about opening up the original AD&D Players Handbook for the first time and diving right into creating characters. Lots of charts and stuff, and lists of weapons and equipment! It was enough to get me hooked, even after playing the Basic rules. On the other hand, I'm not sure there's much of a need for a GM Guide, because that's basically what the other rule books are for (I'm assuming, of course, that the GM is going to be more experienced. This may not be a fair assumption). But the "Powered by Hero" is exactly what I was thinking. I like the way that Monster Hunters International has that sort of plug-n-play feel to it. It seems like this approach can be used for lots of settings, and as a beginner product it could really help people overcome the rules-overload. I have Two Kings Keep, and plan on using it a little later. I have several of the scenarios you created, and enjoy them and will definitely use them. I hadn't made the connection to The Keep On The Borderland, but that makes perfect sense. But as you say, I'm thinking that a very basic tutorial is the way to go. I'm thinking of an approach like this in a brief players handbook: Here's the world you're in (very locally outlined with maybe a larger map to suggest future adventures). Explain the economics, culture, and the equipment and weapons available. A few hooks for adventures (you meet at a tavern and hear several rumors, etc. etc.). Here's the character archetypes to choose from (fighter, thief, etc.): pick one. Here's the races in the world: pick one. Here's how magic works (in a very basic way: maybe a skill-based system to start off). Here's a list of spells (costs only, and not the build information). ​Pick some skills, grab some weapons and equipment and let's play. ​I think that at every step of the way other books can be referenced, such as the HS 6e1 & 6e2, Grimoire, Bestiary, Equipment Guide​, etc., without needing them to be on hand to play at first. But if I can use stuff from existing books, players won't have to "re-learn" anything as they expand their grasp of the game. If I use monsters from the Bestiary, spells from the Grimoire, and the equipment list form Fantasy Hero 6, I can use them as the core rules that will be constant through all game settings. ​The more I can hide the intricacies at first, and just promote playing and having fun, then curiosity will draw people into wanting to learn the mechanics in more detail. As much as Fantasy Hero Complete is intended to be a learn & play book, it's still too complex for a newbie to feel like he can start right away. The powers section alone is enough to overwhelm anyone, and leave them feeling lost. My buddy's head just about blew up when he hit this section. I tried to tell him he didn't really need to know it, but he didn't feel like he could "know" the system without knowing that. In this case, I think less information is actually better. The GM should know these things, of course, but beginning players don't need to know the build for an invisibility cloak: he just wants to put it on and sneak around.

So I have a few problems with trying to teach Fantasy Hero Complete to new folks. I am tying to teach a buddy FHC, and he's been gaming for decades, but there are some problems cropping up. I'd like to get some feedback from sone newbies, or anyone else, who can see the problems with learning the system from an "outsider's" point of view. My buddy's point is that the new FHC is written with the intention of teaching new people, but it is written and presented in a way that is useful to Hero System veterans, not newbies. First off, in all honesty, it's horribly edited. I can find at least one typographical error on virtually every page, which is really bad form for what is supposed to be the new face for Fantasy Hero. I want to recommend a product I am proud of, and this falls short. This is, of course, a different issue which has been discussed elsewhere. The aesthetics of this book don't really give a fantasy feel in its presentation either. The rules are obviously boiled down versions of the larger sourcebooks. For people who are experienced with the rules, this is a great summary to work with, but for my friend they were hard to understand. He noticed right away that, without examples (which were intentionally removed to save space) the rules were really dense. The layout of the text is not exactly intuitive. From my friend's perspective, he wanted to learn how to make a character. Here is what he found, and didn't find: ​​He found characteristic maxima tucked away on page 24, but couldn't find beginning values (hidden away in the appendix on page 252!). Templates are mentioned on page 12, which is what he was looking for, but there is no reference to where they are available (page 202-211). From an experienced gamer's perspective, he wanted to have some sort of suggestions to work from, and felt like he was floating in the game mechanics without any sort of reference point. He wanted to see what equipment was available, etc. This isn't available in the Equipment chapter (p. 188), but it tucked away on the last page of the book before the Appendices (p. 248)! Again, this was off-putting because none of it was intuitive. ​As discussed in this thread http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/94634-newbie-question-non-killing-damage-is-normal/ my buddy had a hard time understanding the damage in FHC. We sorted it out in time, but I realized that, while Damage Classes are nominally explained on page 183, there is no chart comparing normal damage to killing damage. The definition uses Active Points to explain the two kinds of damage, but the Damage Class chart offered in other texts is an essential tool for understanding how they work. I mean, there is absolutely nothing intuitive about a 5DC killing damage attack when all that is defined is that 3DC is 1d6. There's no way for a beginner to understand this. The powers are mind boggling to my friend. In all honesty, he doesn't need to know the build for each thing (weapons, spells, talents, etc.). It is just too overwhelming for him. Is there a way to mediate the information overload? He doesn't need to see how the sausage is made at the beginning. ​I don't want this first post to get too long, so I'll keep it brief. Please add your observations on how the book appears to new eyes. What is expected, what are the impediments, what would make it better? I'm asking all of this because I'd like to create some sort of introductory text for newbies. Something between the Hero in 2 Pages document and Fantasy Hero Complete. For example, I love how Monster Hunters International​ is laid out. It is different than other Hero System books because it defines the setting first, before the character creation. I realize, however, that there is a very strictly defined setting for those rules, and that Fantasy Hero Complete is intentionally more generic. But are there some things that can be presented as standard beginning material (like a magic system, for example!) that give a new person a feel for the new system? What are the basic tropes that everyone expects to see when they open a fantasy book that can be taken as a baseline for a new game setting/rule book introduction? Some of you may remember the old Basic D&D classic module, The Keep on the Borderlands​. It was simple, generic, but also introduced the players to new rules and things as it also introduced their first scenario. I'd like to create something kinda like this. What would you like to see in it, and what should be included? What is the order of importance for introducing the material?

Welcome! So this thread basically is an exact replica of a conversation with my buddy a couple of weeks ago. We have a combined gaming experience of decades, beginning with D&D. He drank the KookAid on Pathfinder, which I never got into, and he is very deeply conversant with all the intricacies of gaming, skill trees, and all that kind of stuff. But he just couldn't understand the damage in Fantasy Hero Complete​. It took me at least an hour of continuous examples and explanations just like in this thread. He finally got it, and looked back on it and realized it wasn't all that hard. It is just a very different way of looking at combat. AC and HP are all you need in D&D, but he could't wrap his head around different kinds of damage, the role of PD and rPD, etc. This thread should be a tutorial for anyone learning the system! With that being said, I'm going to start a new thread about problems for newbies learning the system. I'd love your input on this. It should be coming in a day or two, and I'd love to get everyone's feedback on this, especially people who are new to the system. *Edit: Here's the thread: http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/94641-problems-with-fantasy-hero-complete-and-newbies/ Please give me some ideas of what it's like to look at the book for the first time, and what could help ease the learning curve.

Thanks for the reminder. I'm going to guess you haven't read all of the previous 100 responses (who would?!), but what came out in the conversation is that I was trying to come up with a way with as few meta-rules or campaign-rules as possible. I was looking for a magic system strictly within the confines of the rules as written (RAW) so that it would be more consistent with the system, and hopefully make more sense for beginners trying to learn the system.

Have you looked at the Twelfth Planet series of books? It's more historical, but his discussion of the ancient gods ranging from the Sumerians to the Egyptians and Greeks would be good material. Out of curiosity, in a metal-poor world with more primitive weapons and armor, are you planning on more detailed martial arts systems, perhaps regionally varied? It seems like that would be the first place people would go if they can't get good weapons.