Willpower

Re: House Rule: Adding body damage to a game Actually, guns in DC Heroes automatically did killing damage, though you could buy it differently, but a lot of weapons and such had that distinction built in. Several types of attacks, like there Claws power automatically did killing damage.

Re: House Rule: Adding body damage to a game Actually that is really good for an idea. Maybe if I was just starting out my campaign I might use something like this. It does need a bit of fleshing out, but this was sort of the way I came up my house rule. It is more suitable to add to an existing game, as it doesn't change as much, but this might be better if worked out fully, and implemented at the start of a campaign. This is actually very much like how the old DC Heroes game worked BTW. I like the implementation of the -2 penalty for switching to killing damage BTW. It also makes it to where you wouldn't use killing most of the time, but you can when you really want to. It also makes covering someone better, or someone strong grabbing you something to be feared as then they can switch to killing the phase after they grab you.

Re: House Rule: Adding body damage to a game

Re: House Rule: Adding body damage to a game I like this idea, but have a couple problems with it. First off, it would definitely slow down combat, which is already slow enough. Second, if you choose Con, which is most appropriate typically (Though I could see Ego for mental attacks that do body damage), than you still have that Con Race. (I am not actually sure if it would start a Con Race. Being stunned is already a hazard everyone tries to avoid, and I think they would still want to avoid that more than this, as with how it is built, it shouldn't add TOO much body damage.) The only other problem I have with it, is it doesn't add a scalable affect to the amount of Body damage taken. I have seen people get hit for 150 points of stun and no body damage. I think based on how much stun damage they take, the amount of body taken should go up too. For instance if someone with a 30 Con took a 50 stun attack, under my system they would take 1 Body, which is the same they could take with your system if they failed a 5- roll (9 + 30/5 = 15- minus 50/5=10 for a total of 5-). However in my system if that same person is hit for 150 points of damage, they then take 5 points of Body minimum, but in yours they still take only 1 if they fail a roll of 3-. (Minimum roll, since 150/5 would be -30 to a Con roll of 15-.)

Re: House Rule: Adding body damage to a game Yes to all... My mistake on the math, and I didn't think about other effects besides KB, that just seemed most obvious to me. This is actually the main reasons I didn't want it to be extra damage, but a Body Damage Minimum. Of course I haven't said it, but it should carry over, that this should apply to all attacks that do body, and not just to normal attacks. We can call Trauma damage, which is just a fancy way of saying body damage minimum, so if the person already takes body damage from the attack, it doesn't do extra damage, just insures that at least this amount gets through.

Re: House Rule: Adding body damage to a game

Re: I disagree

Re: 4d6 Major Transform: d20 Gamer to Hero Gamer! Put 5ER on a scale, and all three core D&D books on the other scale. Then look at them and quote Stan the Man, "Nuff' Said". No wait, that will likely scare them off... Use Hero Lite instead, then spring all the other rules on them like a guru afte their converted. Then you'll have devoted followers without paying the points for them

Re: House Rule: Adding body damage to a game That is very true. However, I am fine with a body damage being rare thing. Even given these rules would be somewhat rare, how often do people get stunned. Probably once or twice a session at most in a typical session. That is only 1 or 2 body, which is hardly a crippling injury. Personally I just think that in a straight up fight, with two people without killing attacks their should be at least SOME danger of taking serious injury. But it is very true that this type of thing is very much based on what you want for your own game.

Re: How to kill characters? Sure, I'll try too. Though as I mentioned it is probaby a ways away, not too far, but at least a few months.

Re: How to kill characters?

OK, I just thought of a house rule I could add to my games. I keep reading comics today, and people seem to do a lot of body damage at times. (In the latest Crisis in DC, when the original Superboy got into a fight with the Titans, he was mopping the floor with them, but worse than that he was literally killing them, when he didn't want to because he had too much power for them. I know some people would say, oh that could be done with a killing attack. Well, DUH I know this, but SERIOUSLY, this was Superboy, aside from his heat vision, I do not think he would have a killing attack on his sheet. Not only that, if he did, he certainly wouldn't have to use it. I only bring this up to illustrate a basic point most people know about Champions. Unless you are using a killing attack, and typically even then, you aren't generally going to be doing body damage to other supers. Unless, you have a huge attack, and they have really low defenses. However, examples of what body damage would look like you see in comics all the time. And rightly so. Characters, should be able to die from a really good pounding, even when there are no killing attacks used. But that generally won't happen in hero, where the typical Super has at least 18 to 20 PD/ED, and the typical damage is generally not much more than 12d6. A REALLY good 12d6 roll may do some body damage to a person with 18 defenses, but in my opinion it shouldn't be limited in that fashion. I know, I know, this was done on purpose, when Hero was designed, because heroes, and villains don't die very often in the comics and this was meant to reflect this. The comics have changed drastically though, but Hero remains the same. The short stint with the Fuzion rules changed that with the 5 Stun equaled 1 body thing, but that worked better because body was equal to stun so it washed out fairly well. You can't do 5 stun equals 1 body in Hero, because heroes in Hero have so much less Body than stun. Plus I think it may be too much of a random number. Why 5? Why not 6, or 10. Just because it was easy? Probably. Well, I had an idea that may allow you to put body back into the game, even when doing normal damage, even against tough foes, which works, provides an actual number that works with the individual characters being damaged, and isn't so overwhelming that it will kill people all the time. I was thinking, as a house rule, it might work well to have people take a point of body when they take as much stun from one attack as their Constitution. That way, if someone is hit with an attack that does 100 Stun, but no body, they take at least some body for the massive damage. We could also set it up, that it doesn't ADD body damage, only provides a minimum body damage done, that way if someone did take 100 stun, and 10 body from the attack, they wouldn't take extra body on top of that. We could also push it further and add additional body damage minimums for damage beyond that. I have two trains of thought with that. The first is that for every amount equal to their Constitution taken you add 1 body. I am not sure if that is good enough though, as you won't generally take too many multiples of your Constitution in one attack generally. Though that might be why it works. The other train of thought is to go back to the 5 stun equals 1 body thing, so every 5 stun over your Constitution does 1 body damage minimum. That might be too much though, so we might want to go to 10 to 1, or just stick with Con damage in stun as a multiple. What does everyone think?

Re: combat calculation That is a good way to do it. I was going to mention the math was wrong, but it turns out, MY math was wrong, as I was taking the result and thinking of that as the or less needed. That was shearly out of habit from the way the book mentions it though. It would be cool to add that number to character sheets. Instead of just saying OCV, you could add the modified OCV number so you can remember it easily. Then you just have to add any levels of other modifiers.

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"? Well, for one I at least try to make sure all of the players are playable, and at least somewhat defensable against most attacks. At least against most attacks that aren't meant to really kill supers a lot. That is why, when describing my campaigns I try to have a range of appropriate defenses. I know it keeps from being able to play in DC type games at least somewhat, because their range is so great that if someone like a normal was hit full force by someone even in the remote Superman level power range, they would be totaly wiped. But then I have found when you do play at those levels everyone invariably ends up wanting to play a character in the Superman level power range, because if you have a huge fight, and that level of diversity, typically the lower powered characters end up feeling there isn't much they can do. And if you have a fight in the lower power range, then the higher powered characters end up dominating so much, that the lower powered characters still feel useless. Mixing it up doesn't work either, because at that point the only fight that really counts is the high powered one. (Example: Batman versus Joker, Superman versus Doomsday in a big fight. Batman beats Joker. Yea! OK, Doomsday beats Superman... OK, good luck Bats. Other way around. Joker beats Batman. Boo! Superman beats Doomsday... You really think Joker has a chance? This just shows why in Champions I use a range of appropriate power levels and defenses so that all characters can work together. You will still have some people that out power others, but it won't be so overwhelming that the other guy has no chance at all. I ran a game one time, where someone played a Dark Knightish type guy, who investigated a warehouse, only to find that was where Eurostar was planing their heists. He flubbed one of his rolls and was spotted. Big fight ensued. Normally, this guy fight on equal footing with only a few members of Eurostar, but he was at least built to a good enough level that he could affect most members at least somewhat, and take a few shots even from Durak. (That was his name back then.) This Dark Knightish type guy, fought like the blazes this time though. It wasn't that the dice were with him, he was just really trying to use his surroundings and fight smartly. He did, and ended up defeating all but one member of Eurostar before finally being overwhelmed, and that was only because it was Durak that was left, was untouched, and he only had a few stun left at that point. There have been many times people have approached me with a character build and I have had to tell them that they would get killed unless we added a bit more defense somewhere. Typically, they do and it works alright. One time I had someone ignore what I said. After the first fight that group was in, and he was taken out first thing, by a lot, and out the whole fight, he wanted to readjust his character.

Re: How to kill characters? Sorry, one last thing. I, as a GM, try to guide people into making better characters, but it is they themselves that make and run the characters they want to run. Aside from keeping the characters in my guidelines and trying to make sure two don't overlap too much, the rest of making characters goes to the players. Now I manage to keep things from getting silly (unless it is a silly campaign) but I try and let people play what they want. It is their characters, not mine. It just so happens that some of the concepts aren't the best. The player with the problem's concept was decent, it was basically just a martial artist, who developed into a sort of martial arts speedster. But he kept trying to throw these kind of silly asian influenced powers in. They weren't really asian influenced, which is why I call them silly. But if the player wants it, and can fit it in with their concept somewhat, and it doesn't violate my rules for the game, then it is fine for them to make the character that way. I don't run the game through martial law, and only allow characters to be made the way I, being great and powerful, would make them.

Re: How to kill characters? Ok, I'll address these. First off, the second part of your second cardinal rule is what I am attempting to do here. That is why I made this post. As for being desperate for the companionship of "these people". One of them, the less vocal, who isn't the real problem has been my friend since before high school, so it isn't as simple as you indicate. He is a friend, not someone that I roleplay with that I am hoping will be my friend... "Oh please be my friend?" What do you think I am 13? As for being desperate, no, this is a bit of a different situation that most people with a campaign, as the game night is not soley mine. The game night we have, for a long time was run mainly by another friend of mine, who currently is away for the better part of a year. So in the meantime, I have picked up my campaign again, which I ran occasionally when the first GM, who is currently gone, wasn't running. Also, I am now running this alternately with another who runs a different game, when I am not running. So it isn't like I can completely change the landscape by kicking people out and inviting new ones. Sure I don't need the one who started the problem, and that would be fine, he would simply play in one game and not in mine, but I cannot simply invite new people all the time as we then typically open up the other games being played to them as well. We don't HAVE to, it is just easier that way. (I am married, and have a kid, so I can only game once a week, so we end up sharing games.) Finally, if I were to bend to your suggestion to just kick them out of the group rather than give people what they want. How would that make me a better GM. In my personal opinion, a GM doesn't just run a game, he leads it. As such, he or she has to take the feelings of their players into account. That doesn't means letting them walk all over you, but taking what they feel into account. If they are fine with things ending one way, but not another, then I do my best to try and give them what they want. That does not mean I give them 750pt characters, that does not mean I only run scenario's they personally like, though in that situation if you only ran things you liked and didn't care if anyone else had fun, you would have no players. Being a GM has a lot more give and take than some of you are giving it credit for. Trust me I've been GMing for over twenty years.

Re: How to kill characters?

Re: How to kill characters?

Re: How to kill characters? Well... It is not that I simply want to change venues. I do, but thats neither here nor there. The campaign itself is approaching the intended conclusion. After that it is possible that we continue the game, but the campaign itself would have to change. They could keep their characters if they want to and the team simply becomes a standard superhero team. The problem I am having is when I even approached the topic of changing to a different campaign, I got shouted at (well, as well as one can shout over email). So I am not set on changing to a different campaign once it is finished, though that is what I would like to do, since that was the original intention. Right now I am simply exploring ways to kill their characters, should I decide to change campaigns after it is done. Which, with the idea of changing the universe itself someone suggested, is looking like a more and more prominent idea.

Re: How to kill characters? Then your not reading it. Thanks for wasting mine and everyone elses time.

Re: How to kill characters? Thats actually really good. Someone else suggested something similar, but I thought it was a bit beyond the scope of thiss campaign. However the more I think about it, the more it isn't. The character that is the brick of the group who used to be a big bad guy first had his accident that diminished his powers when he and a team of Viper agents and villains investigated a mysterious artifact at the bottom of the ocean. Something happened, and Boom all died but him. He was taken down from about 850 pts or more to around 350 and given the mind of a child. I never, ever considerred his character the main character of this campaign, but it could work if I used this artifact to help with something like you are suggesting. Also, my first adventure with the group introduced an entity named Entropy who appeared originally as one very powerful NPC. He took on the whole group. Later they ended up running into hundreds of this Entropy. It turned out that Entropy was an insanely powerful cosmic entity. The individuals of the Earth including the PCs were merely below his level of recognition. Were would be the equivelant of microbes to him. This being they knew of as Entropy they figured out were actually just physical representations of thoughts of the actual being. Basically he was looking for his daughter, Karma, (who I mentioned earlier)who upon her creation, was somehow captured by Viper, and them having her made them unbeatable. Anyone in the outfit, literally got what they wished for. However their were some limits to these wishes, they couldn't simply wish to rule the world for instance. Basically, it allowed all agents and villains in viper to have a cosmic VPP. I could try and work this into the artifact mentioned earlier, maybe the artifact in question holds Karma's mother, contained within, and that is why when Karma came into existance she was vulnerable on Earth.

Re: How to kill characters? *Exactly* On a side note. I have boached this subject before simply for the sake of fun, and not actually kiling any characters, and I ALWAYS get get everybody and their dogs coming out saying how you shouldn't do it, and just to talk to your characters instead... Even when it is just a theoretical conundrum meant for fun. This was one of the reasons I started off a bit pessimistic about this thread.

Re: How to kill characters? Ok, after reading this one, I think I have come up with the reason why a lot of you cannot really understand what I am talking about when I say these guys don't want to switch characters, but have no problem with it if their characters die. One thing I failed to mention about both of these players is that by FAR they are both more experienced at roleplaying in D&D. In fact for the older one, he has never played in Champions until this campaign. As such, they are used to characters dying before making a new one. In Champions however death is typically something that is decided upon by player or player and GM. They do not obviously think in this fashion. At least one of them is much more used to hack and slash, the both are more used to D&D. Maybe now you'll see why they have no problem dying, they just want it to be in the game, not something planned out. Knowing Champions the way I do, it is hard to kill characters though, unless you try to. So the trick if I need to do so, is to try to, without looking like I am trying too.

Re: How to kill characters? Thanks... hehe, and the attacking en mass thing just happened. Not all villains, but all Viper. The villain in question that took over Viper, is basically the more powerful evil twin of our teams Brick. So he took out our teams Brick, got onto the grounds and into the midst of the heroes before attacking them. This was all a distraction so that thousands of Viper agents being led by Viperia could descend upon the base unnoticed. They have nearly killed our teams version of Professor X and the base is nearly destroyed when the our brick finally got back with a neighboring superhero team. They immediately knew this was more than even both teams could handle so a cosmic entity that is a member of the other team tried to teleport all of our team onto their craft. She used area effect though, and Viperia and the villain dupicate of our brick were in the area. (I know that is really hard to actually do, I caveated it for story purposes. Plus it is not technically illegal as it CAN be done if no one resists.) Can we say BIG FIGHT in a small space with not one but two villains in the level of Viperia fighting. Not saying they will win, but they are still just over most of Viper who has probably around a hundred attack vehicles there, and several hundred flying agents. Not to mention the ground agents that seriously outnumber even the other two.

Re: How to kill characters? The players in question are around 36 or 37 and the other is about 50 to 55. But the older one doesn't appear too experienced in roleplaying games. Not positive though It is the first game I ran him in, I have played with him in a couple of others, one being on Hiatus due to the GM being gone for a while, and the other alternating with mine. The younger player is a more experienced roleplayer, but not top notch. Nothing wrong with that mind you. Six months is a short campaign, very short. Though not unheard of. Six years is about right, though not all campaigns ast that long. This one is only a few years old (2 or 3) and has just recently progressed to the point it could end. It was always considerred that it would end when Viper was defeated. I hadn't planned that Viper would become defeatable this soon, but things that happened in the game made that option, one that made a lot of sense. Still, even though right now it is defeatable, doesn't mean the players WILL succeed at defeating them. Viper needs a strong leader again that knows how to run an organization like this and keep it alive. This is one of the main reasons I may end up having the Supreme Serpent still alive. If he is and helps the heroes defeat the bad guy, then it is possible that he takes control of the organization again, and begins to restrengthen it. It should also be noted that the events that led to the villain taking over occured right after the "Sharper than a Serpents Tooth" storyline, so Viper was already weakened by the conception of Coil. there are a few, though their schedules may be a problem with ours. It is not simply my game as I split with another so I can't just uproot the night. I gave them the option of continuing their characters in a different campaign, albeit that depending on the campaign the characters may need a bit of tweaking. I haven't heard back on that idea. I don't expect to hear from the older player on it for at least a week or two, as he said in his last email, not to bother writing him for a week or two, as the emails will simply be deleted without being read... Yeah, this is the player I don't really mind losing. In fact, I am still not positive if he will be welcomed back at all, since all of this was simply about me mentioning the potential of a new campaign sometime in the future. The other player that explained things to me, said he was under other forms of stress and just dumped it on me, so I may be tolerant...