iamlibertarian

Anyone have a working link to Galactic Champions PDF in the Store? 

When I google it, I am coming up with nothing but 'this page no longer exists' and other such nonsense.

The description for Constant Powers (6E 127) Explicitly states that constant powers end with loss of LOS.

Trigger description does not explicitly undo this, but implies it: Arkelos and his magic traps when Leaving the area,  (6E1 351) when it speaks of land mines. Don't even have to be on the same plane for the mines to go off. Warding Spell (6E1 352).

So I am assuming that the LOS is based on the location of the triggered item (A triggered explosion, such as when a trip wire is activated, for example.



 

2 minutes ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

The problem of course, is what in the world does Focus Man do when his Focus gets taken away?  All his Super-ness was in that Focus!  Without it, anyone tougher than a street thug is going to slap him silly.  He can't superfight supercrime! 

This is, admittedly, the fault of the way the character was made for not having a backup in case of Focus loss.  But it's a very common issue.  Look at Defender's 5e writeup.  Without his OIF suit, he's throwing 3 DCs at 5 CV, has 3 SPD and 5 PD/ED.  Most instances of battlesuit users and Super Because Of This Object Man cease functioning in combat if the Focus becomes a Limitation.  That's fine if it just becomes a combat loss condition, but if it's not fixed/returned by the start of the next fight they're going in already having lost. 

Does the player just sit out combats until the GM tells them they can be Super again?  Does the plot get put on hold while everyone goes and fights non-super enemies?  Are there suddenly no combat encounters until the Focus is restored? 

If the GM has permitted Focus Man, then the only Appropriate Time is "until end of scene".  The only alternatives are to disallow Focus Man or to make Focus a non-Limitation. 

It's a terrible situation, and I'm ranting because my M&M group has a Focus Man in it and I expect things to go badly. 

I cannot disagree with you. If you purposely put all your eggs in one basket, that is dumb, and on you. At least Iron Man got it right. Everything is in one basket. But he was smart enough to buy Summon (arrives under its own power) on his suit, lol.

2 minutes ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

Fragile just means it's easier to take away via damage.  Fragile has nothing to do with permanence of loss. 

I only meant Fragile, as in one way to 'lose your focus'.

I think I am seeing a consensus beginning to form.

Foci can be lost, stolen, given away, etc. If so, those points can come back in some form (regaining the item Eventually such as a story to recapture or rebuild it), transferred to another item (Thor from Hammer to Axe), and the like. The penalty for stupidity (or pissing off tooo many bad guys with this ultra-powerful item is they target getting that item away from you) is not having it for an Appropriate Time (whatever that may be under the circumstances).

Foci can be gone Forever if we get a bonus (less cost) for buying the item as Fragile, Unique, or the like. But without buying those limitations, those points do come back in some manner (hopefully via a good story).

6 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

I think that de-coupling constant powers from SPD might be something to think about in any future edition but some consideration should be given to what that means for costing (and not just for SPD).  I think, if constant powers were to cost END, by default, four times a Turn, then it is an advantage for most characters.  If I made my Energy Blast constant, does that mean it only damages four times every Turn, does it mean it damages every segment (with concomitant END costs).

 

What about damage shield? Does it only cost in a phase where someone gets damaged or does it cost every segment, or would it only cost four times a Turn?

Good points all. Advantage is currently to slower characters. Or should i say Adantages. It affects not only END, but also Charges, etc. So slower characters get an advantage for using constant powers. Especially if they use constant powers which do not use END or Charges or the like every phase but rather only on their phases, like AE or Damage Shield. Or is it a Disad to the Speedy character? Or both? So it is advantageous for Speedy characters to stay away from these kind of powers.

So I see your point about, if we decouple Constant powers from costs per active phase, maybe the cost of SPD should go up. Hmmm...

Lol, true, and not a bad idea.

Ok, so Time Limit is supposed to be a Limitation for long lasting effects, "Limitation for powers that ordinarily last for long periods of time. Primarily this means inherently Persistent Powers such as Mental Defense or Enhanced Senses), but it can also apply to Instant Powers that create objects or effects which linger indefinitely (such as Barrier, Entangle, or Telepathy). (6E1 346).

I want an 'all or nothing' healing of the transform to be a hard limit of time (as opposed to healing back body). Easy enough to do when creating a character on paper. However, when trying to apply Time Limit in Hero Designer it Only offers me Time Limit as an advantage. Has anyone run into that before? Found a fix?

Maybe I should calculate the proper limitation fraction and just add that into Designer as a Limitation, and re-type the limitations title as Time Limit?

GM Fiat, but I like it. Or base it on the Average speed of the group or the typical Joe (if Average SPD is 2, pay END on Activation and 6 phases later).

4 hours ago, massey said:

Regarding the "focus doesn't really have the power".  That's a personal focus.  The easiest example is Dumbo's feather.  Dumbo needs the feather to fly, because he thinks he needs it.  But if you or I grab that feather, it doesn't do anything for us.  You can keep Dumbo from flying by taking away the feather, but you don't gain anything by keeping it.

I like it. Personal focus has no power, it just is (as mentioned somewhere above) a crutch, helping the owner have the ability to use a power. But then a Universal Focus actually holds the power. For example, a pistol can be either. If it has in its grip a DNA Detector limiting use to the owner (yes, DNA can be copied - anything can happen for the sake of the story - but would either be a rare occurrence  or a plot line). Whereas a store-bought off the rack pistol would be a Universal Focus.

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Regarding someone taking your focus and running away with it, that's fine.  It doesn't matter.  It's on your character sheet, you don't lose it.  Your character's point total isn't like a bank account where someone can steal from it.  Your point total is a measure of your character's power.  Steve just yoinked that dude's rocket pack?  Why can't he keep it?  Because Steve is a 350 point character, and if he had a rocket pack too, he'd be 375 points.  But this isn't a 375 game yet.  It's the same way that a guy with 15 points of wealth can't buy a bunch of cool vehicles and weapons automatically.  There's nothing really preventing him from purchasing them, but once he does that his character is a lot more powerful, and this story is about people who are less powerful than that. Anyway the guy who loses his focus will get it back, or will get something equivalent back.  Captain America paid points for his shield.  It's his shield.  His character costs however many points because he's got that shield.  He can lose it temporarily during an adventure (some jerk with a robot arm grabbed it), but he'll get it back by the end of the scene because that's how it works.  Iron Man has replacement suits waiting for him, Hawkeye can always get another bow, Spider-Man knows how to make another set of webshooters, and Thor can hold out his hand and his hammer comes back.  Cap always gets his shield back because that's how the story works.  If somebody were to steal it, he'll be able to find it again, by the next adventure at the latest.  Either that, or he gets another shield (or some other weapon) to bring him back up to full points.  Remember those triangular looking forearm shields from Infinity War? 

Sometimes a character goes through a story arc where they don't have their focus.  Thor's bitchy sister shows up and shatters his hammer.  He's down a bunch of points at the beginning of the adventure until he discovers his Super Thunder God Powers.  You see, Thor's player was getting kind of bored and he wanted to change something about the character.  "Okay," says the GM, "we'll swap out the hammer for some souped up lightning bolt powers.  Cool?"  Thor thinks cool.  By the end of the adventure, Thor has shuffled around his points and spent some saved XP.  Now he's got super lightning.  Of course by the next adventure, Thor's decided he wants this big axe thing, so the GM lets him change his points around yet again.

Great examples! Not only are we looking to keep game balance, but also, at least in Champions, we are looking to create stories that actually fit Comic Book paradigm.

And to fit the paradigm, it would be great of the GM to create some epic story arc involving the return of the item (Thor being able to call his hammer after breaking through some mystical barrier), or replacement thereof (getting materials so S.H.I.E.L.D. can build another shield (pun intended) for Cap, or the changing of powers (Thor creating an axe instead of getting the hammer back).

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Thanks!

The -only- thing I don't like about the Hero System is how SPD affect END. I swear I can't think of a better way to do it though.

But it bugs me that Constant powers cost more END just because one Can take more actions. No biggie for some powers, like Potion of Giant Strength (+20 STR). Don't use it and you don't pay extra END just because you are faster.

But create an AE Smoke Screen (without continuing charges or Red. END or the like), and just because you Can take actions 6 times per Turn (an expensive purchase extra SPD is), you pay 3x the END of someone who  can only take actions 2 times per Turn, even though they are the exact same power, built the same way.

Anyone have any thoughts on how to get around that, and restore the balance, besides GM Fiat?

4 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

...If you have to give away a physical "thing" to grant the power, and in so doing you no longer have the power (unless you have multiple things), and you have to receive back the physical thing in order for you to have the power again-- That's a Focus.

 

if you have _infinite things-- or at least enough to always just happen to have a spare...  That's UOO.  If you don't have to transfer possession of a thing at all, well that's UOO as well.

 

 

I am almost certain that this didn't help, but I really, _really_ hope it did.

 

Actually it did help. It may not help me create a power that I can then, if I ever find a group, lol, just drop on an average GM and have expectations of automatic acceptance. But it does help me understand the Concept of Focus vs UOO better.

Thank you Hugh for answering my questions. The thread kind of devolved a bit into separate parts (LOS vs Consciousness vs UBO vs Focus, etc., which made it hard for this dork to keep up. But all your answers make sense. And thank you Bolo for summarizing all of the loss of consciousness parts so this addled brain of mine could put the whole picture together.

And thank you everyone else for the parts you answered as well.

8 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

A focus is not a UoO power - it is a focus.  As long as Shirley keeps that Universal Focus, she can fly.

Even if she is stunned, knocked out, or sleeps?

4 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Looking at the rules (a good idea, as I have already shown...:)), if the grantee is stunned or KOd, he loses the granted power.  I would extend this to sleeping, so Shirley cannot keep that power forever.

Grantee: Makes logical sense to me. But only if you have time and know where, might you point me to that rule? It can take forever looking through the many books available. Again, only if reasonable for you to do so. And, I am assuming this is speaking of a UBO, not a Universal Focus.

4 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Now, if the character had a Focus Shirley took, we need to assess what happens based on special effects.  Does the PC Enchant a ring of flying?  Maybe it needs maintenance, so after a couple of days, he enchants a new one and the old one runs out of enchantment.  Maybe it is an artifact, one of a kind.  Then the player needs to get an opportunity to retrieve his focus - those CP should not be lost.  Worst case, we might agree he has lost the ring permanently, and let the player re-spend those points on something else (a radiation accident, essentially).  Maybe some day, he finds Shirley and gets his ring back - now he has to pay points if he wants to keep it.

These all make sense. But what if that Ring of Flying is a Universal Focus instead of UBO. Does the loss of consciousness (or sleeping) of Either of them cause the power to end?
Thanks again!

1 minute ago, Hugh Neilson said:

To keep flying when KOd, the power would have to be Persistent, not just 0 END.  Without the character directing it, the flight normally ends.

Thank you for the info. But if you read above, some have said that if instead the Ring of Flight were handed to another character for a one-shot use (fly back to the base and get some equipment), others have said that if the character Giving away the ring were to lose consciousness, the power would not end. I am not saying you (or they) are wrong. I am just confused.

6 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

A universal focus is self-contained.  Think of it like a gun.  Its disconnected from you, they can run off to the moon with it, and it still works, because the power is entirely in the focus.

Thanks. That is what I figured, and makes sense to me. But(!) Just to be absolutely sure... Said Ring of Flight mentioned above, built on a focus... if my character is wearing it, (if it has Reduced END 0) and gets knocked out, he does not immediately lose the flight power crashing to the ground, instead continuing merrily on his flight (though it might be funny to see what he crashes Into, lol).

10 minutes ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

Bolding mine.  Some UOO constructs require LOS.  6e UBO does not. 

OMG. Complicated. But useful info. Is it in the original powers that the need for / lack of need for LOS is found? Or is it somewhere in the UOO description? I know I am asking a lot, but I really appreciate the help!

Nevermind. I just found what you were talking about on 6E1 356, Proximity Modifiers. The recipient can go anywhere including LOS unless a limitation is used.

So I am assuming the same applies to a Universal Focus.

Wait: Now I am confused. It has been said above that said Ring of Flight does not have the power broken when handed to someone else (1 time, not a gift) and they fly away (back to the base in the example given above), which breaks LOS. But 6E1 360 gives an example (Multiform, Summon) of the grantor leaving LOS and the power is broken.

So *does* a UBO or Focus lose its power if LOS is lost unless Uncontrolled or Continuing Charges is purchased as well?

3 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

Here's an interesting bit of trivia, though.  Usable On Others with Differing Modifiers is almost entirely the original Create effect from Fantasy Hero 1e, that was used to create magic items.  And FH 5e and 6e have both suggested using that as one way to create magic items.  For me, conceptually, UBO/UOO with Differing Modifers can be sort of... the Power to create the Power, I guess.  I know that doesn't clarify it much.  (Create a power with the Focus Limitation, then create a UOO With Differing Modifiers Power that takes a "blank" of the Focus, Extra Time, RSR: Enchantment (or similar), whatever additional Limitations are required... then you activate the UOO, and suddenly you have a magic item.)

I am assuming that if this were built as, say, a magic item for example (focus) which then could be given to another, then at least in a Supers game, that receiving character would have to pay CP to keep it?

And, I am assuming that once cast/given away (with just UBO, not built as Simultaneous), it could not be re-created for a second character. Or can it be 'recast' a second time for another character?

So just for clarification and summary:

UBO truly grants the power to another.
 

Focus (Universal) allows another to use your powered item, with all the attending advantages (being able to hand it out in Rare circumstances if needed for example)  and disadvantages (can be stolen, lost, broken, etc.) of doing it that way.

Neither causes a said power to end if the grantor dies, goes unconscious, loses LOS.

True, but if it is a Universal Focus, I thought you said UBO wasn't needed (at least if it is a one-shot use of the focus)?

Oh, that begs another question though: 

If my character gets knocked out, say in the case of the Ring of Flying, does the flight end and the ring wearer crashes and burns?

If so, is there something which can be paid for/built into the power, like Continuing Charges or Uncontrolled or the like to handle that?

Now all I have to do is find a group, lol. Until then, character creation is still a blast

Just looking to make sure I understand this correctly:

UOO (for example UBO) literally grants the power to another character to use as s/he will (barring limitation preventing some types of uses).

Focus (if universal) literally puts the power into the item. So anyone can use it. (I know, I know, I am not trying to hand out weapons to everyone to permanently keep, or to use every gaming session, lol.) So it doesn't have to have UBO?

So if, for example, my character has a Ring of Flying (Universal) for himself. But my character is occupied in the middle of a scene and needs another character to fly back to the base and grab something, he can give the ring to another character to make that journey?

Or say, a Potion of Healing. My character has 2 of them. Two characters go down at the same time. My character rummages in her Bag of Holding and pulls both out, uses one on one character and hands the 2nd one to another to use on the other downed character. Still no UBO needed if the potions are Universal?

Thanks!
DC

On 9/10/2019 at 5:55 PM, Hugh Neilson said:

Transform (character into character with Healing/Regeneration that takes extra time, and encased in ice/unable to take any action/in suspended animation); Transforms back when fully healed.

Would the target not then have to pay for the new special power (able to heal/regenerate), since Transform is permanent?

DC