cbullard

Aquaponics should work very well for that, too, although the water weight could be an issue. Still, if you're talking about a colony ship, this could help keep several of your plant varieties readily available for planting upon arrival. (or kill them off in a ship-wide blight, too) According to some looking around (I won't dignify it by calling it "research") a few years ago, one person's food supply for a year can come from an aquaponics setup of 25 sq ft. I think that must have been a typo and they meant 25 ft sq. But if that is accurate, then the only extra thing you would need to haul would be food for the fish.

I agree, you need to be able to move that much mass, which in a 1G gravity well is the same as weight. Of course, that applies no matter what method you're using. And honestly, to me that makes perfect sense. To me, no matter what form your "tractor beam" takes, your ship's engines should have to be able to carry that load. It would completely blow my suspension of disbelief to see an X-Wing or the Millenium Falcon towing a Cruiser, for example. Gorn Anchor? No, I've never heard of it. What is that, please?

Thank you for pointing out these out. You raise very good concerns. For the "range of self" restriction -- I'm afraid I'm not sure of the 6e wording, as I only have the 5e books. For 5e, the wording is: "Generally speaking, characters cannot make [Self-ranged] Powers work at Range, nor can they apply the Area Of Effect Advantage to let others use the Power at the same time they do (that requires the Usable On Others Advantage, unless the GM gives permission otherwise).... Generally speaking, characters can make these Powers work at Range by applying the Ranged (+½) Advantage." (5e, p.101) If nothing else, I can also see some GMs agreeing to place it under a "rule of cool" umbrella regardless of what edition is used at that table. It gives a different flavor and significantly different ramifications to something that has become a bit of a SciFi trope. In my example, I also applied the "Increased Maximum Range" advantage. Whether this was allowed, and to what extent, would be a GM call. I did it in this case to make the two powers being discussed be as much of an "apples to apples" comparison as I could manage. And no, this option doesn't prevent the target from moving, it only prevents it from moving relative to you. Yes, this certainly means your ship could (and in many cases certainly would) be dragged along with whatever you're attaching to. That initial moment of contact could be a bit bumpy for those on your ship, too! For it to be otherwise, your pilot/flight officer would have to match vectors with the object -- essentially the same as a docking maneuver. Thank you for the input!

Not typically, no.

Some of these are VERY helpful, thank you! There was one entry that was particularly evil, though. WarpDrive: See Alcubierre drive. Alcubierre drive: [entry does not exist] ;-)

Ah, okay. Sorry for the misunderstanding. As for the limitations, almost every single one that could be applied to TK would also be applicable for Clinging, and you're starting with such a significantly lower AP value. Regardless, the point was never meant to be, "TK for Tractor Beams is bad!" It was just meant as, "Here's another alternative to consider, that costs WAY less."

Why would the relative positions limitation meaning you couldn't move a ship out of danger? Is there some reason you wouldn't be able to activate this power onto a ship in danger, then activate your own engines and tow it? I would disagree with the Only vs Other Ships limitation for a tractor beam. Why shouldn't you be able to use it on an asteroid, etc? Also, I don't recall any fandom saying that tractor beams can't be used in atmosphere or in Zero G. On the contrary, they were used on a planet's tectonic plates in Trek:Next Gen to make people on a planet think they were experiencing an earthquake ("Devil's Due"). I can see limitations like Affects Whole Object, Beam, and Requires A Skill Roll, but it's still not exactly cheap. Consider a fighter-sized ship (Size 9, STR 55). To get a 55 STR for you tractor beam, you need: Telekinesis, STR 55; Affects Whole Object (-1/4), Beam (-1/4), Focus OIF Bulky (-1), Requires a Skill Roll (-1/2) AP: 84, Real Cost: 28, END: 8, Range: 420" By the same token, Clinging (even without the "only on one axis" limitation) for the same ship gets you: Clinging (Normal STR, 55); Beam (-1/4), Focus OIF Bulky (-1), Requires a Skill Roll (-1/2), Ranged (+1/2), Increased Maximum Range x1 (375", +1/4), Costs Endurance (Every Phase, -1/2) AP: 17, Real Cost: 5, END: 2, Range: 375" So you have a slightly shorter range, and once you activate it you then have to use the ship's engines to actually move the object (so it won't work for a base or other non-mobile platform), for less than 1/5 of the CP cost and for 1/4 of the END cost. If your ship is powerful enough, you could even do a fast turn with the ship and slingshot the object in question.

I know I'm late to the party, but I have a couple of observations re: the stargate as portrayed in the Stargate movie and TV shows. Known capabilities/limitations: Open a wormhole to transport personnel or small fighter craft to another stargate anywhere in the galaxy (100,000 light-year diameter). Can only open wormholes to other stargates Can only keep the wormhole open for 33 minutes Ejects a horizontal plume upon establishing the wormhole. This plume can be prevented from forming by a solid barrier or force field at the event horizon, but if it forms, everything caught in the plume is destroyed. From watching the first activation sequence in the movie, it takes approximately 1:30 to dial the gate, for the wormhole to open, and for the plume to clear. In SG-1 “Children of the Gods” (season 1 episode 1) it is approximately 1:05 from the time one of the guards hears a rumbling sound until the incoming wormhole is formed. In the movie, it took 25 seconds from the time the probe entered the event horizon until the tracker stopped moving. Location (Abydos) was described as “somewhere in the Kalium galaxy” and “on the far side of the known universe” but this was later changed in the series to place it in the Milky Way galaxy. In “Children of the Gods” it took approximately 12 seconds for the box of tissues Jack tossed through to reach that version of Abydos. However, subjective time for those traveling appears to be instantaneous, as evidenced by those diving through one gate and still emerging in the same dive from the other gate. Stargate wiki says a Jumper is a 4.7m diameter x 8m long cylinder, and can carry 20 people. This is a Size 6 vehicle: 4 hex length x 2 hex width, 6.4 tons = 5805 kg + 2000 kg for people = 7805 kg. In the movie and early episodes of the SG-1 series, those emerging from the gate were covered in frost. In the Pilot episode Carter explains that the freezing is due to the momentary compression of your atoms needed during your reconstruction on the other side. “By the time you get to the other side you’re frozen stiff, like you’ve just been through a blizzard, naked.” Let’s look at these in order, in terms of Hero System powers and capabilities. Open a wormhole to transport personnel or small fighter craft to another stargate anywhere in the galaxy (100,000 light-year diameter). Teleport 1”, Megascale, 1” = 100,000 light years, can be scaled down to 1” = 1km. Continuous (+1), Usable on Other (+1/4), Gate (-1/2), Two-dimensional (-1/4), OAF Bulky (-1 1/2), Area of Effect (Radius) x4 Radius (4” Radius defined down to 3” Radius, +1 1/2), Requires A Skill Roll (KS: Stargates, -1/2), Gestures (Dialing the coordinates of the destination gate, -1/4) Can only open wormholes to other stargates Can only teleport to fixed locations: other stargates (-1) Can only keep the wormhole open for 33 minutes 1 continuing charge lasting 1 Hour, defined down to 33 minutes (-1/4) Ejects a horizontal plume upon establishing the wormhole. This plume can be prevented from forming by a solid barrier or force field at the event horizon, but if it forms, everything caught in the plume is destroyed. Major Side Effect, 5d6 RKA in an 8m line directly in front of the gate, upon activation. (-1/2) From watching the first activation sequence in the movie, it takes approximately 1:30 to dial the gate, for the wormhole to open, and for the plume to clear. In SG-1 “Children of the Gods” (season 1 episode 1) it is approximately 1:05 from the time one of the guards hears a rumbling sound until the incoming wormhole is formed. Extra time, 1 minute, only to activate (-3/4) In the movie and early episodes of the SG-1 series, those emerging from the gate were covered in frost. In the Pilot episode Carter explains that the freezing is due to the momentary compression of your atoms needed during your reconstruction on the other side. “By the time you get to the other side you’re frozen stiff, like you’ve just been through a blizzard, naked.” “Momentary compression” and the freezing effect sounds like the process involves Shrinking for the relativistic instant during which they are traveling through the wormhole. Compound Power: Shrinking, 5 levels (62 AP), Instant (-1/2), Usable On Other (+1/4), Linked to Teleportation: lesser power can only be used when the character uses greater Power at full value (-3/4), Focus: OAF, Bulky (-1 1/2), Minor Side Effect, travelers take 1d6 cold damage. Side effect only affects the recipients of the benefits of the power, Occurs automatically whenever power is used. (-0). Real Cost: 33. 0.0625m tall, 0.031 kg mass Stargate wiki says a Jumper is a 4.7m diameter x 8m long cylinder, and can carry 20 people. This is a Size 6 vehicle: 4 hex length x 2 hex width, 6.4 tons = 5805 kg + 2000 kg for people = 7805 kg. This means we need to step up the teleportation effect from 100 kg to 7805 kg. Fortunately, our Shrinking has already taken care of that by reducing the mass to 1/32768 of the original. That means our gate can now transport 3,276,800 kg So our final Stargate looks something like this: Compound Power, Teleportation and Shrinking Total Active Points: 79, Real Cost: 19, END: 6 Teleportation 1”, Usable On Other (+1/4), Continuous (+1), Area Of Effect (4” Radius defined down to 3” Radius; +1 1/2), Two-Dimensional (-1/4), MegaScale (1”=100,000 light years; + 4 3/4), Can Be Scaled Down 1” = 1km (+1/4), OAF Bulky (-1 1/2), Fixed Locations: Can Only Teleport To Other Stargates (-1), Extra Time (1 Minute, Only to Activate, -3/4), Requires A Skill Roll (KS:Stargates -1/2), Gate (Power loses about a third of its effectiveness, -1/2), Major Side Effect, 5d6 RKA in an 8m line directly in front of the gate upon activation, Side Effect only affects the environment near the character, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used, -1/2), Gestures (Dialing the coordinates of the destination gate, -1/4), 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Hour (defined down to 33 minutes) (-1/4) Active Points: 17 Real Cost: 3 Shrinking x5 (0.0625m tall, 0.0031 kg mass), Usable On Other (+1/4), OAF Bulky (-1 1/2), Linked (Teleportation; Lesser Power can only be used when character uses greater Power at full value; -3/4), Instant (-1/2), Side Effects (Travelers take 1d6 cold damage, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used, Side Effect only affects the recipient of the benefits of the Power, +0) Active Points: 62 Real Cost: 16

The typical way of doing Tractor Beams for starships seems to be Telekinesis, and that does seem to fit the bill pretty well. But it gets expensive, especially if you're trying to make one strong enough to hold another ship from getting away. What do you guys think about doing a crude tractor beam as Clinging, with the Ranged advantage and the limitation that once it is activated the relative positions between the two vehicles cannot be changed. You have to turn off the power, make the adjustments to relative positions, then turn the power back on again. If you wanted, you could also add the limitation that it only works along one axis of the ship (directly in front/behind the ship, directly above/below, etc). Thoughts?

Honestly, the rules for vehicles are massively screwed up. I mean, seriously. Let's look at two real-world aircraft as presented in Ultimate Vehicle. P 77, F-18 Hornet Flight 35, Speed 5 This works out to a whopping 65 mph (35" * 25 phases/min * 60 min/hr = 52,500"/hr. At 804.5"/mile that's 65.24 mph) Or even more ridiculous... P 81, Boeing 747-400 Flight 11, Speed 3 That's 12.3 mph. That's more like "taxiing down the runway" speed, not flight speed. And yes, I know that both of them have considerably faster non-combat speeds, but we're supposed to believe that these are the speeds those two planes fly in combat. I seriously doubt that the F-18 could remain airborne at 65 mph, and I know good and well that a 747 traveling 12 mph is falling out of the sky.

I agree completely. Per "The Ultimate Vehicle" p.118: "For example, perhaps you decide that weapons, defenses, propulsion systems and power systems all have a mass of 2 kg per AP and a volume of 0.5 cubic hexes per 5 AP." There are similar formulae on p. 119, 135, and 158. They vary a little bit, but they're all pretty insane. On the surface, that formula sounds fine. But when you actually try to use it, it is total crap. Allow me to explain. The volume of half a hexagon (2m across = 1.15m sides x 1m tall) is 3.43 cubic meters. (3/2 * sqrt3 * s^2 * h = 1.5 * 1.73 * 1.32 * 1 = 3.43 ). That much space per 5 AP. Mass of 2 kg per AP means 5 AP weighs 10 kg. 10 kg, for 3.43 cubic meters. Or about 2.9kg/cubic meter. 2.9kg, or 6.4 lbs, per cubic meter? Let's compare that to something really light, such as feather pillows. Per https://im.kendallhunt.com/HS/students/2/5/17/index.html, the feathers in a pillow have a total mass of 59 grams. The pillow is in the shape of a rectangular prism measuring 51 cm by 66 cm by 7 cm. That's 23,652 cubic centimeters. A cubic meter is 1,000,000 cubic centimeters. 1,000,000 / 23,652 = 42.44 feather pillows in a cubic meter, while a cubic meter of our drive system weighs as much as 2 feather pillows. Not the engine room that houses the drive systems, but the drive systems themselves. Ditto for weapons and other systems. TL;DR: feathers are 21 times more dense than vehicle engines, weapons, etc. It's not that I think such calculations are important for the game. But the people who are going to use such numbers are the uber-geeks like me who are curious about a bit more realism and detail in the game. So if they're going to give specific numbers, could they please make sure that the numbers they're giving aren't completely destructive to the goal of adding some realism?

An interesting idea -- thanks!

Yeah, most people seem to think that sonic booms are constantly shattering windows, etc. It's more of an annoyance. For a commercial supersonic transport plane (SST), it can be as loud as 136 decibels. By comparison, a loud rock concert is around 120 decibels. Pain levels for most folks would be in the 120-140 decibel range, which is why they outlawed supersonic flight over US territory.

Ah, okay. I hadn't read those, "Battlefield Earth" was the first time I ran into them. Have you read the others? Are they worth digging up a copy? (Not just for that aspect, obvviously - for the story) Thanks!

My apologies, I don't always have the precise lingo yet. That is on me, and I beg the group's patience as I build my vocabulary. What I mean is, assuming there is nothing in the game world that would change this law of physics, what would be some ways in which a character could specify powers/skills/etc that would allow him to travel within an Earth-normal atmosphere at speeds greater than Mach 1 but not to create a sonic boom?

You wouldn't consider it to be under the heading of "Side Effects" like the various "Dangerous Exhaust" listings on p. 30 of "Ultimate Vehicle"?

Just found this in the 5th Edition book, where it is talking about IPE on p.126: "For example, a character might want to create an Invisible Darkness field which would still interfere with Sight of those inside it (and those trying to look into or “through” it), but whose source and/or special effects could not be perceivable." I could easily see that as an *alternate* solution (with Invisibility being the obvious primary solution) to creating a cloaking device. That would seem to eliminate all the debate over visible special effects, exhaust fumes, etc. provided that none of them leave the area of the Darkness power. Don't you agree?

I am of the same mind as you. Unfortunately for me, we have more than one GM in our group, and they can't come to a consensus, so they suggested I seek input from this group.

But the Hero Generator lists multipliers for Source Only, SFX only, or Hide Effects of Power, as well as options for single sense, sense groups, and fully invisible. > What special effect do the engines have? I believe it was the Psychlo ships in the L. Ron Hubbard novel, "Battlefield Earth" that I stole the idea from: the ships move/fly by means of continuous teleportation. (Game terms: compound power Flight + Teleportation, must pass through intervening space. Yes, I figure I could justify doing either power singly and calling the rest a special effect, but went with the more expensive compound in order to forestall arguments -- a failed effort, as it turns out.) As such, it would be an inertialess drive, with no need for emissions. > Why so anti-IPE on the Flight, anyway? Stealth aircraft have to reduce their hull's radar signature AND baffle their engines' heat and noise. Mostly because I feel like I'm being "over-charged" due to some in-group rules lawyering. The ship already has Stealth to cover the radar/sensor cross-section. I've already bought the power in a very expensive way (see above), and one of the reasons for doing so was to cover things like this. To add IPE, I would probably have to add it to BOTH Flight and Teleport, and frankly, after all the points I've already spent on it, that just doesn't seem reasonable to me. > the laser gunner woefully advises the captain that he cannot get a lock on and is immediately eaten by the captain. Bad gunner! ROFLMAO! Thank you, I needed that! :-) >On the other hand, if the ship moves by manipulating gravity (and would show up like a bonfire on gravitic sensors), the Baddicon cruiser, without gravitic sensors would be totally unaware. On the other other hand, if a Psi-goon ship turned up, their esper navigator may well simply mind scan the location of your ship. Yep, I completely agree -- espers, or several other types of sensors, would not be fooled in the least by this. > Although once your exhaust leaves the area it would become visible (and the same applies to your darkness field). It absolutely would, regardless of which approach the ship uses. ANYTHING that leaves the area of effect of the cloaking device (whatever form that ends up taking) would immediately become visible. > But you can't turn it into Invisibility by applying IPE. And I can certainly respect that position. That said, there is nothing in RAW forbidding applying IPE to Darkness, so what WOULD that do? Again, thank you for your thoughtful replies on this -- please don't take anything I've said to mean that I don't appreciate it!

Ah, yes. I still love that movie! And the send-up comment I heard about it: Considering that, "In space, no one can hear you scream," they sure made a heck of a racket! ;-)

LOL Amen! Unfortunately, my GMs don't seem to recognize the "Just That Good" power! ;-)

Thank you. You all have raised some excellent points, and I will definitely be giving them more thought. Unfortunately, my original question remains mostly unanswered: How, IN GAME TERMS, could you avoid creating a sonic boom aside from slowing down? Mrinku's comment about Flash "vibrating between molecules" might be considered a form of desolidification, which I agree ought to mean no sonic boom. And yes, Flash can canonically desolidify and pass through solid objects. But logic would seem to dictate that either he is desolidified/passes through objects/doesn't create a sonic boom, or that he can interact with the physical world/causes a sonic boom, or that anything he wants to do while running that fast has to have the "affects physical world" advantage. Are there any other ways, IN GAME TERMS, that you can you think of that would accomplish this objective? Thanks again!

I'm completely good with weapon-fire visibility being a separate thing from ship invisibility. But I do have an issue with "Invisibility means the ship is invisible only as long as it doesn't move." That's the description for Chameleon, not Invisibility. Regardless, there is almost always more than one solution to a problem. Do you think that Darkness with the Invisible Power Effect advantage would have the same end result of making the ship non-detectable, as described previously in this thread? If not, what effect WOULD it have, in your opinion? Thanks in advance!

The Flash. Superman. Iron Man. A Quinjet. The Batplane. All of these and many more can travel at speeds considerably faster than Mach 1, which means they're creating a sonic boom. What is a sonic boom? According to physlink.com: "...[when a plane] is going at subsonic speeds (lower than that of sound), the sound of the plane is radiated in all directions. However, the individual sound wavelets are compressed at the front of the plane and further spread at the back of the plane because of the forward speed of the plane. This effect is known as the Doppler effect and accounts for the change of the 'pitch' of the plane's sound as it passes us. When the plane is approaching us it's sound has a higher pitch than if it is going away from us. Now, if the plane is traveling at the supersonic speeds, it is going faster than the speed of its sound. As a result, a pressure (sound is variation in pressure) wave is produced in the shape of the cone whose vertex is at the nose of the plane, and whose base is behind the plane. The angle opening of the cone depends on the actual speed the plane is traveling at. All of the sound pressure is contained in this cone. " (http://www.physlink.com/education/askexperts/ae53.cfm) Note that this is a continuing effect trailing behind the character/vehicle causing it, not just a single-instant thing. So if a character wanted to avoid angering the local populace every time you ran/flew through the area, how (in game terms) could you avoid creating a sonic boom (aside from the incredibly obvious, "slow down," of course)? As a side note, supersonic flight by civilian vehicles over US land. So a military Quinjet would be clear, but any of the others could be up for prosecution, if the authorities could find a way to press the charges and were inclined to do so. In an "Age of Ultron"-type of political climate, I could see them being willing...

You bring up another aspect of this application that I'd been looking at. I'm wanting something more like the ST:TOS Romulan Cloaking Device. My thought was that Invisibility should cover it, but RAW indicates that the special effect from the ship's Flight power would still be visible unless I *also* bought "invisible power effects," which seems like I'm having to pay again for what should already be covered. But like I said, I'm not the GM, so I don't get to make those decisions. Literal "black blob" darkness is not a requirement for the power under RAW. "...Darkness can create a field that’s impervious to one Sense Group (usually the Sight Group). Some examples of Darkness include smoke grenades, mystic spells of silence, and blinding fields of impenetrable blackness." Any way you look at it, though, it creates an area that is opaque to whatever sense, and that very opacity could be noticeable. As has been mentioned already, Change Environment could make it harder to notice the ship, but we're still having to use multiple powers to accomplish what I think should be dealt with by one. And that doesn't consider the PER modifiers for things like possibly loud engine noises, sensitivity of detection devices, etc. What would happen if you bought a Darkness power with the Invisible Power Effects advantage? Would that give you something like the old D&D power, "Invisibility, 10' radius"? (and yes, I know you can add an Area of Effect advantage to Invisibility, but we're still stuck dealing with the problem of the special effects rendering the ship visible again.)