Scott Baker

Powerful Heroic campaign, actually, but I bought CC because I didn't need all the fluff examples like 5er has.  I also own most of the 5e published material.

 

 

THANK YOU.  You have no idea how much looking (as in flipping around in the usual places) in the CC book I did looking for base values.  That's part of why I was pretty disgusted by it -- because when you hunt for a half hour on something that should be up front and easy to find, it's disconcerting ... especially when the past locations (like the character sheet) omitted the very info you're looking for.

 

 

 

Incorrect read: I -want- to move to 6e, but I'm not going to read CC cover-to-cover unless the time to do so can be justified.  Learning 6e is absolutely NOT worth doing if the gaming group won't adopt it.  And the group will need to be sold on it.  Hence this thread: I need the list of selling points to provide to the group.

 

​Honestly, it's rather comical to me that a complete list of benefits is not spelled out somewhere in stickied fashion as a marketing/upselling tool for the new edition.  The 2-page conversion doc talks about differences but doesn't provide the rationale for the changes ... and the rationale is the important part to our group.

You just want somebody else to do all the work for you. I stand by my post that you make claims without even reading the basics of the rules you say you want to use. If you want to use them, make an effort. 

No need to respond as I won't see it.

That is something I hadn't noticed considering I already know what the characteristics are -- and have not yet committed to reading the book cover-to-cover (because I won't bother spending time in that way if there's not enough justification, hence this thread).

 

There was not a concise breakdown/listing (a la character sheet style) anywhere in the book that I could find after consulting the character sheet in the back of the book, the index, and the table of contents.  For comparison, the character sheet in the back of the 5er book -does- have the base values.  Why they didn't include the base values on the character sheet in the back of the CC book (and probably the 6e book, too, I'm guessing) ... is beyond me.  This is a quick place to find all base values in one listing without having to read pages of info -- and has historically been there in each editions' stock character sheets...

 

From my perspective there's irony in something called 'Champions Complete' ... being incomplete (compared to previous versions). I think I've got firm ground to stand on when I compare the concise listing in the 5er book in the form of a character sheet with all base values shown on it .... to the lack of base values on the 6e sheet in the CC book.  One shouldn't have to read multiple pages and all characteristic descriptions/definitions to find these...

It sounds like you really don't want to make the switch from 5E. You say you want a list of benefits to moving to CC, yet you won't even do the basic research of reading the rules--and I don't mean cover-to-cover. And then you claim the information you are looking for isn't there. This doesn't doesn't really seem to be about convincing the people you play with to make the change, but wanting us to convince you for some reason,

I'm sure others will keep plugging away at this, but if you can't explain why you want to make the move, it's not worth my time.

If you take nothing else away from this, know that it's OK to stick with 5E. If you don't like the rules in CC (although I recommend reading them before deciding), or you just don't like the format, no one here is going to force you to make the switch. And no one here can make you like something it seems clear you don't like. And it's not our job to.

 

Ah, I see. That does make a difference.

 

Nonetheless, I would still suggest discussing adding selected 6E components to your 5E game with your group, in the name of ease of use and cost effectiveness.

 

Honestly, I would counsel against viewing "new stuff coming out for 6E" as a pressure to switch from 5E. It isn't hard to convert most 6E materials to 5E. While the pace of that new stuff coming out is, frankly, pretty sluggish. Since you mentioned Champions Complete I'm guessing your group plays supers primarily; and there is a vast amount of published material available for 5E. You can even buy it from this website's online store for half its original cover price.

In support of this...I ran a session in a 5E game. I handed one of the players a 6E villain character sheet to run for me and away we went. I may have gone so far as to say, "X used to be named Y," for one of the powers, but I wouldn't swear to it. Other than some of the fiddly bits where the differences have already been called out, there's enough crossover to use resources from one edition to another without difficulty.

I actually have Champions Complete (and the PDF for it) -- but have already noted some things are missing from it (items confirmed on these forums, no less).  A good example would be the basic template that players start working from (Straight 10's in what was formerly the primaries, 3's for CVs, 2 SPEED, 2 PD/2 ED, 4 REC, 20 END, 10 BODY, 20 STUN, 12 RUNning, 4 SWIMming, 4 Leaping).  I couldn't find that anywhere despite reading about characteristic sellbacks.  (i.e. I couldn't locate that from which one would commence such a sellback!)

Every characteristic description starts by listing the base value for that characteristic, followed immediately by the cost (CC 13-20).

Wasn't aware of that. So they abandoned the one idea I liked.

No, just poor continuity (and lack of caring) on the part of those making the movies. I'm sure they also saved a few $ not doing the FX.

from UNTIL Superpowers Database Revised (written by Steven S. Long) page 261,

 

 

Here is the core attack from the Nega-Beam character sheet:

 

HM

There's also Animate Object, and Cyberkinetic Chauffer (which summons a vehicle) in the 2005 update. And possibly more. I did a quick check and Steve L. carried all three of these over to the Champions Powers book for 6E as well.

It should be noted that all 3 of these powers actually summon a thing with stats (characteristics, etc.). So from that perspective I imagine Steve might say that these are "beings" as opposed to summoning an object (like a focus).

Hero System Martian Arts 6e book

You've piqued my interest! Maybe now I can run my Canals of Mars campaign!   

For attacks, maybe you want to consider the DCs rather than just the point cap. 

If I had set a cap at 60 points as you give in your example, I would consider the first option to be a clear violation of that. I also wouldn't let you buy a 4D6 HKA and increase it using a power framework (e.g., a multipowr slot for +2D6 HKA).

Scott Baker, on 17 Jan 2016 - 11:00 PM, said:

There's absolutely nothing that states that they have to ever be in combat with the PC...

True. But on the flip side, there's no rule saying they can't all be in combat with the PC. So if I impose that restriction, shouldn't the player get some kind of discount for it?

For purposes of game balance during play GMs often "restrict" things that players don't get a limitation for. This is Hero, you can roll your own as you like. 

Yes it is, because the back end toasted itself sometime last year and I haven't ever gotten around to fixing it.

 

This one works, and may have even more on it than my last incarnation held:

http://masterlistsofcomplications.wikia.com/wiki/The_Master_List_of_Complications_Wiki

 

Also, I agree Physical Complication is the way to go, anywhere from 5-15 Points depending on the severity and frequency of the issue in game. Modeled after the automaton one mentioned above in some fashion.

Last time I was there it wasn't as complete and wasn't very active. By the total number of entries, it doesn't look like much has changed. But it is still a good resource. 

I'm of a mind with Lord Liaden. Pay for all of the followers. There's absolutely nothing that states that they have to ever be in combat with the PC, so there's no reason to reduce the cost. 

I am planning a GC game too, using my newly acquired Champions Complete book.

 

I am still going through the rules, since I have not played Hero system in many years.

 

I will probably keep the game on the high end of the heroic scale, maybe 250 or 275 CP, Because I don't want to have the PCs start with superhuman stats I will use the suggested characteristic maximums for Heroic games. Since it is a heroic game, I will not make the PCs pay CP for equipment.

 

For the next couple of weeks I will work on learning the 6e rules, making sample characters, and having a few practice combats. 

 

At the moment I am not planning to turn this into a campaign, so I will pre-generate a half-dozen or so characters, write up a plot, and run it as a demo game a couple of times. Then I will be comfortable with expanding the game to an ongoing campaign with PCs making their own characters.

Sounds like fun. Welcome back to Hero.

Steve Perrin posted to these forums some years ago, updated character sheets (in 4E HERO) for the original Terror, Inc

Thanks for those files LL, are they in 6E format?

4E as LL noted.

I know it's been mentioned before, but Manic Typist said it most recently: this appears to be a communication problem. You and the players need to talk about what is/is not working rather than trying to come up with some way on your own to try and railroad the players into changing their behavior.

Galaxy Quest...'cause...Alan Rickman.

tl;dr - I'm still excited for Journey to the Center of the Earth

There's been a lot of activity over on the Strike Force thread so I wanted to make sure you know that I'm still waiting for you to take my money.

I know...be patient...artwork...KS prep....

I'm guessing that if the rule from page 366 is invoked that there really wouldn't be 2 separate VPP's.  Instead, there would be the primary VPP and then a 'Limited Bonus to the primary VPP' that is built exactly like a VPP but since it cannot be used independently it would not invoke the prohibitions to combining VPP's per the rules on 6e1 page 398.  Again, Mr. Long would need to confirm.  IF this is not the case I have no clue why the section I highlighted was included.

 

HM

If you ask Steve I think he'll point you to 6E 401.

Well, I know in previous editions there was a rule against building a Partially Limited Multipower (and by extension VPP) but I just found the following section of 6e that appears to indicate that GoldenAge's original idea of 2 separate VPPs would actually be legal now (and less expensive than my examples above).  Of course, further clarification from Mr. Long would be necessary to confirm this.

 

From 6e1 page 366,

 

 

HM

Not so much. I'll refer to 6E1 398 -- No Combining of Frameworks.

Edit: And CC 122 -- Slot Purchases. (Not sure what GoldenAge is using.)

One pitfall I'd warn against is the Big Picture Trap. One can get to wrapped up in specifying the location and details of every empire, kingdom, and city state, or the various relationships among the Deities of several pantheons, or the historical conflicts and alliances among a dozen schools of magic, as to never get around to writing the first adventure.

 

If you are actually going to eventually run a game, you have to keep coming back to "What does this look, sound, and feel like to the individual adventurer?"

 

Lucius Alexander

 

This tagline looks sounds and feels like a palindromedary

Right. When you get into that level of detail, you really aren't looking at the Big Picture any longer. Too much detail early on can be extremely limiting for future adventure planning as well. 

Your games obviously favour swords. Players rarely tend towards less efficient options.

My first thought is that spell casters in your games likely pay for their spells with character points, but the swordsmen get their weapons and armor as equipment they can purchase in-game money. This ties in directly with Doc Democracy's statement about, "less efficient options."

Regardless of genre, I use Hero Designer for character creation.

I bought these months ago and just have not gotten around to reading them (or a bunch of other stuff). I was intrigued by the descriptions for sure. I'd certainly be interested in seeing more of the series.

Word (at least the latest version since I don't have any older versions installed currently) can save a file directly as PDF now. There are options for creating bookmarks and also an option to "bitmap text when fonts may not be embedded". I haven't played with that last option, so not sure exactly how it's implemented. And someone else may have offered better alternatives.

As I suspected but could not confirm until now, the rule is listed in 5er (Steve Long has stated that 5er is essentially 5e plus all the FAQ rulings that he had made up till the point of writing that 2nd book).

 

From 5er page 112:

 

A version of this doesn't make an appearance in the 6e rules until APG1 page 55:

 

HM

Thanks! You just saved me a bunch of time looking for this.

I corresponded with Killer Shrike a couple of months back over at rpg.net. I was inquisitive about FATE and he pointed me to his Pathfinder Fate Accelerated hack. As with all things Killer Shrike, he put a lot of creative energy and heart into fleshing out FAE into a really awesome resource. I got the impression that KS was a little burnt on Hero and was taking a break. He never explicitly stated as much, but context clues and all.

Thanks for the update.

Tasha, I'm curious to hear from anyone who has ever played a Fantasy game with that rule in force. One BOD gets through and you need new armor.

I'm pretty sure we just ignored this the last time I played fantasy with Hero.

Since I don't normally play fantasy I took a look in FHC and see that the rule carries over verbatim to that version as well.