Dust Raven

In the description of the Persistent Advantage, it states an Instant Power may be made Persistent. Under what conditions may Persistent be applied to an Instant Power?

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

Still doesn't negate the fact that Persistent can be placed directly on an Instant Power.

 

Aid for example. Or how about Mental Illusions.

 

I'm sorry it bothers you - but it's right there In The Rules. The only requirement to add Persistent is the Power must cost 0 END. Whether it be Instant or Constant.

 

This is not a question of inference or interpretation. Under Persistent it SAYS "Instant or Constant"

 

Take up with Steve if you think it's a typo. Beyond that - you're simply wrong in stating Instant cannot be made Persistent directly.

I'm not debating the rules, I'm debating this interpretation of them. I have gotten clarification from Steve Long concerning Self Only making a Power which normally requires an Attack Action only require a 0 Phase and it does not. He even mentions that while a GM an certainly waive this and allow it, it would be unbalancing.

What I'd like is some rules or guidelines as to what Instant Powers it can apply to and when, or if it's just there because you can put Continuous on an Instant Power to make it effectively Constant. I'll clarify that with Steve Long as well I guess.

If you place the Self Only Limitation on a Power which normally requires an Attack Action to use, does the use of that Power still require an Attack Action, or do them become a 0 Phase Action? Examples are most likely to include Adjustment Powers such as Aid, Healing and Transfer, but could also be used for some Attack Powers to simulate a suicide device.

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

These are really 2 parts of the same question. Are you guys actually implying that a power that can only target self should require an attack action? That's the only other option and it makes even less sense to me.

No. I'm plainly stating a power that normally requires an attack action will still require an attack action if you apply the Self Only Limitation to it.

Neither of these rules are clearly stated as such but are certainly implied. This question is really getting into "Let's ask Steve" territory but I doubt we'll get a definitive answer since it is such a narrow subset of the rules as a whole.

Oh, I think we can get a definitive answer out of him for this one. It's a fairly yes/no type question that isn't ready answered by the core rulebook and doesn't involve design philosophy.

Of course, we could still end up with a "if the GM allows it" responses, but I hope not.

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

Because it's an Attack Power.

 

Persistent just means "On until consciously turned off."

 

I didn't say Persistent Energy Blast was a good idea, made any sense, or was useful. I said it was Rules Legal.

 

There's lots of Rule Legal stuff that either a) shouldn't be done or just makes no useful sense.

 

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. The rules are ultimately there for our benefit, the more options the more benefits we can reap, not all options are equally useful.

I don't believe this is a case of "just because you can" because I firmly believe you can't. Persistent does not mean "on until consciously turned off." It means "on with out conscious control or activity form the character, as in staying on even though he's stunned or unconscious." To me, this means you can't have a Power which requires an attack action be Persistent. Otherwise you'd be allowed to continue making attacks versus people while unconscious.

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

Yes, as a matter of fact you can.

 

It will be on between segments (still visible to whichever Senses you've chosen); Require an Attack Roll every Phase it's used; Require an Attack Action every Phase to maintain.

 

Not very useful really. But technically Rules Legal.

That doesn't make any sense. How can a Power that requires you to use an Attack Action to maintain be Persistent?

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

The power works each phase that the owner pays END and is a 0 phase action since no attack roll is necessary.

Where is this rule stated? I've looked and cannot find anything that says applying a Limitation (specifically Self Only) to a Power makes it activate as a 0 Phase.

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

The only requirement for Persistent I'm aware of is the Power must cost 0 END.

 

Also under Duration Advantages under Persistent is says "Instant or Constant" meaning one or the other, not must be Constant first. No inference there at all. It can go from Instant to Persistent without ever needing to be Constant.

By that argument, I can make EB Persistent without adding Continuous. After all, if the only requirement is to have 0 END, something like being Constant or Continuous won't matter for any Power. There is nothing in the description of Persistent at says otherwise.

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

I can see being able to deflect bullets but not lasers...

And I can see being able to deflect lasers and not bullets, but don't see why one should be more expensive than the other.

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

After checking and double checking the rules, I can't find where it's universally legal to place Persistent on a Self targeted Instant Power without also placing Continuous. There is absolutely no reference for this at all, anywhere I can find it. I have not yet checked the online FAQ, however, so it may be there.

Basically, Healing says that it requires an Attack Action to use, but the GM may waive the Attack Roll when used on willing targets. It is my understanding that if you are not buying the Optional version called Regeneration, and just buy Healing BODY, Self Only, you must still use an Attack Action to use the Power to heal yourself.

The only supporting evidence I can find is the word "Instant" in the description of the Persistent Advantage and a surprising lack of any explanation of which Instant Powers are eligible, and the fact Continuous does not appear in the suggested Optional version of Healing called Regeneration.

I belief the Persistent is OK on Self Only Instant Powers is an assumption and nothing more. It may very well be a correct assumption, but it is an assumption (unless the FAQ says otherwise). Of course, it seems like it's a pretty good guideline. If so, what other Self Only targeting Instant Powers might it apply to other than the Option version of Healing called Regeneration?

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

RE: anything other than shapeshift

Another rule I rewrite: Missile Deflection cannot be bought by category. It costs 20 points. Period. If you want to have it apply only versus ranged attacks that are thrown, you apply a Limitation.

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

Actually you'd not change shape at all' date=' you'd change texture. If someone touched you, you would [i']feel[/i] like a giraffe or a tree or a bunch of goo, but still look like you did to begin with. And it would cost a lot to do so.

 

So yeah, vs touch only changes what people can sense with touch and no other senses. Sight changes what people can see, but you'd still feel, taste, smell, sound the same.

 

The power is just poorly designed.

You are plainly interpreting the rule incorrectly, or are simply misunderstanding it. Interpreting the rule your way, I may as well ask what Power I need by to have my skin turn orange when I want to use my HKA (which I've defined as a "death aura" which turns my skin orange when in use). Or maybe I just have the ability to materialize melee weapons out of thin air. What Power do I buy if I just want to food a blind or sighted man I have a sword without actually stabbing him with it?

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

If I have shapeshift only for touch does that mean I can twist my form into any physical shape but unless someone actually touches me no one could tell. Sounds like what shapeshift should be with +1/2 or more of IPE.

Think of Plasticman or Mr. Fantastic. Each of these characters may have Shape Shift vs Touch Group for any shape. As a result, they can bend and contort their bodies into a variety of necessary shapes to perform a specific task. However, upon perceiving them do this you are not fooled into thinking either of them is not who and what they were a moment before they started contorting inhumanly about. That's why they don't by it vs any other senses besides Touch.

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

That's what Images are for. In 5th Ed' date=' you literally do not have any power for changing your physical conformation, except Multiform. I want a power to change my actual, real, physical form, [u']without[/u] gaining other powers, changing my stats, etc. 5th Ed. doesn't have one. It should.

I feel 5th edition does have such a Power, and that Power is called Shape Shift.

RE: Images vs Shape Shift. Images is the Power to make something that isn't there, or isn't real, appear to be so. Shape is the Power to make something that is there (specifically the self), to appear/be different. Shape Shift is a "real" change, rather than a complete falsification of reality. The distinction is in that with Images, anyone may make a PER roll to identify the falsity of their perceptions. With Shape Shift, you cannot.

In fairness, Shape Shift is based upon it's actual game/mechanical effect rather than what you are actually doing with it. It's the same reason why the same RKA 2d6 OAF costs the same (and is built the same) even though it could be heavy handgun, or a high-tech from the future laser gun. Sure, one is obviously worth more in the context of the game, but functionally they are the same. Same with Shape Shift. There is no uniform, measurable utility in changing your shape, nor is there really any way of fairly assigning a point value to it. What the actual effect is, assuming your other Powers or abilities remain unchanged, is how you are perceived by onlookers. Thus you are charged so. There is simply no other way of handling it.

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

Exactly! Well put!

 

Oh, and welcome to the 1000 Rep Power club.

Thanks and... wow. Exactly 1000. Neat!

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

Continuous is an advantage that is only applicable to powers that target others. Once the Self Only Limitation has been taken in addition to the 0 END Advantage it becomes legal to apply Persistent.

How long have I been out of the loop? When did this become a rule and where's it written down at?

Re: Susano's Guide to Adapting Fictional Characters to HERO

You got a PDF file for this by chance?

Re: Can you choose not to Regenerate?

Have you ever had the Persistent/Continuous debate with Mr. Steve? Curious to know the position he took on this...

I believe his position was "See page XX of 5ER for an example build of Regeneration using Healing" or something like that.

Mr. Long doesn't like discussing design philosophy, and all he can really say about the example build is that it's an example and you can build Regeneration anyway you like.

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

I would like to change Entangle.

Specifically, I would like to eliminate the "1 BODY" and "No DEF" and similar Limitations and simply not restrict how you purchase the +d6 and +DEF elements. Much easier to buy a 1d6 10 DEF Entangle. or a 12d6 0 DEF Entangle.

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

I have NEVER met anyone who didn't hate the rules in the rules book. Every GM and every player I've met face to face used 4th Ed. Shapeshift, because it's simple and straighforward.

 

I'll repeat the best thing anyone ever said about 5th Ed. self-so-called Shapeshift; "Steve Long et al jumped on the hobbyhorse of 'its all senses' and rode it right over a cliff."

Although we've never meet ftf, I hope my opinion of this matter will not be invalidated. I like 5th edition Shape Shift. As far as I'm concerned, "changing shape" is one of the many possible SFX of appearing different than you normally are. If you make a Power that causes an actual physical change in the character, then you eliminate other possible SFX, such as illusion, hologram, glamour, etc. Yes, it's much more cumbersome than 4th edition's Shape Shift, but it's also better.

Re: New Advantage: Area Effect Group

... Maybe I'm missing something here. Area Effect hits everything in the area. The spell, when defined, limits who this his instead of "everyone." Thus, when I use my AE explosion, only vs undead, the explosion goes off in the area, and only hits undead targets.

 

What am I missing?

Perhaps I'm the one missing something... Why would a separate or additional mechanic me necessary for this? We already have a "not versus" or "only versus" Limitation that serves this exact purpose.

Re: New Advantage: Area Effect Group

Much like I can purchase an Energy Blast with the limitation "Only vs. Evil beings". I don't have to know ahead of time which beings are evil and which are not' date=' nor do I need to purchase some sort of sense to be able to tell which beings are evil. I just shoot them. If they are evil they will be effected by the power (to the extent that it is able to harm them through their defenses). If they aren't, they won't be.[/quote']

 

I once had a character with a psychic blast bought as Ego Attack. He was able to detect if a target had a human-like "living" mind because that's all he could affect with it. I have no problem with this.

 

I've seen several characters out there with magnetism bought as TK, Only vs Ferrous Metals... and as a result could "detect" if something was metal or not. I have no problem with this.

 

Then I see things like "Only Versus Evil" and I gag (no offense archermoo). With the above two example, and may others I've seen, the SFX of the attack makes sense and meshes with the effect of the Limitation. Almost always things that depend a lot on the opinion of an individual just don't work. What's evil? Personally, in real life, I don't believe in evil. This power would be free as it is useless. I have a friend who is convinced he is evil, I suppose if he were right, this power would work on him... but how do we tell who's right? Unless the SFX of the power can make a black/white determination of of what is/isn't, I don't allow it.

 

Now, as for the original topic thingy of so long ago... I'm absolutely fine with things like AoE with an Only Versus X so long as the SFX of the Power make it clear how it determines if X is present. Some materials are affected by magnetic fields... so magnetic fields will affect those materials for example.

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

I suppose we could add a sinking slowly in water power' date=' and a getting towed in water power rather than removing redundent moving through air powers, if that makes more sense to you.[/quote']

 

Actually, a serious ignore rule possibility would be that silly "dragged or pulled" Limitation for things like dog sleds and wagons. What's wrong with just buying a dog or a horse and giving them enough STR to pull or drag something?

Re: Help with Power: Regen as Armor

I should stop posting at work, where it takes me an hour to type a post...

Re: Help with Power: Regen as Armor

This is exactly what I am trying to figure out to a T. All of the builds here are perfectly valid but don't hit the heart of this issue I am after which is to properly model a very specific effect...

 

If I can regen 5 points of body (and in theory 15 points of stun at the same time). Then how do I build the actual powers in such a way that I can, without conscious action (i.e. on every segment including those where I have no action) protect from (armor) or repair (regen) exactly 5 total points of Body and 15 total points of Stun?

 

And that should include the case where I get shot once for 3 Body and 18 Stun resulting in a net loss of 3 Stun and regeneration of 2 Body.

 

 

I know I can build similar effects, but is there a legal power build that results in the above numerical effect which is the correct modeling of the special effect I desire?

This is gonna be expensive, and I'm not afraid to say abusive. You're looking at a character who can recover 60 BODY and 180 STUN per TURN. Keep in mind the STUN recovery alone is worth 360 points (Active)! Granted, this cost may be reduced somewhat with a Limitation "Not For Damage Stopped By Armor Per Segment" which I would personally value at a -0, but maybe a -1/4. The don't get hurt part is easy, cheaper, but also amazingly abusive: Armor 5/5 plus Armor +10/+10 Only Versus STUN.

Of course, expensive and abusive can be a good thing, but only if it's really what you want.

Oh, as for the build for the Regen part, simply buy a 180 REC and however much Healing (Regen) you need to recover 60 per Turn.