Gnaskar

Re: Mars Colony?

Look. I'm not arguing that the Sabatier process won't work. I'm arguing that it will take some time to build a Mars-ready prototype. It's the difference between claiming that the new automobile engine you've sketched on a napkin will work because' date=' well, other automobile engines work, and actually prototyping it through a thousand hours test.[/quote']

 

One thousand hours of testing divided by 8 hour work days equals 125 days, which is far less than the six years of development before the first unit would have to be launched to get a man on Mars by the end of this decade. I'd suggest upping it to ten thousand hours of testing, actually, but that still gives 2 and half years to build it.

 

Looks to me like we have another failure to communicate. I'm saying we can and should start a Mars program ASAP, which would take some time to get ready to launch. Engineering takes time. Eighteen months in the computer world, 2 years in the automobile world, about 5 years in the rocket world. I'm not saying we can launch tomorrow. I'm saying we'll never launch unless we start engineering.

 

The last time I peeked at humans-to-Mars in any serious way' date=' the hard unsolved problem is the environment, keeping people alive for the duration ... a couple years ... without resupply. Propulsion was never a serious issue, except that the mass, space (that is, volume of the spacecraft) and environmental requirements for humans make the payload larger by upwards of factors of thousands both in mass and in cubic yards.[/quote']

 

The Space Shuttle had a payload of about 25 tons, and weighed about 109 tons (without payload). It was designed to keep 7 people alive in space for two weeks, and then land repeatedly; flying through a thick atmosphere at supersonic speeds.

 

A Mars Direct hab only has to maintain four people, and only has to land once through a trace atmosphere. Radiation shielding is on the order of the International Space Station's (shielding isn't that high of a priority; any one willing to spend three years 0.4 AU away from backup should be willing to risk increasing their chance to get cancer from 20% to 21%). Heat shielding is also minimal, as it can be made ablative (aka: it burn off on the way down, leaving the rest untouched).

 

Keeping people alive for two weeks (or the six months the ISS does) isn't any different from keeping them alive for 3 years; it just takes more supplies, and probably a couple of backup systems. Or better recycling systems. The most common estimate I've seen is that humans require 5 kilo of resources (air, water, food) a day if nothing is recycled. 5.5 tons per person for a 3 year mission (too much!).

 

If recycling is possible, that goes down fast (but you need a recycling plant). A plant that turns CO2 into O2 with 90% efficiency weighs about 20 kg, plus a number of 5 kilo carbon absorbing plates (they need to be replaced about every six months). Humans process about a kilo of oxygen per day, so installing such a plant reduces the amount of oxygen we need from 1.1 tons per person to 0.1 tons per person (upped to 0.2 to handle leaking). That also means lighter oxygen storage tanks, driving weight down further.

 

Water recycling is more complex, as it generally involves turning it to steam, moving it away from whatever gunk was in it, and cooling it down. It needs a bigger power plant, some strong pipes, and there's always so water left in the gunk when it's vented. Given 80% recycling (which is conservative, I've owned a more efficient one), the 3 kilo of water needed per day is cut down to 0.6 kilo per day, or 0.66 tons per person for the mission.

 

Mars Direct goes even further, drawing all needed oxygen and water needed while on the surface from the Martian air (saving us 600 days of supplies).

 

And that's it for environmental requirements and supplies, really. 7 tons of supplies (for a crew of four), 3 tons of life support, 1 ton of solar power (to run the life support) for a total life support requirement of less than 3 tons per person (additionally, the refinery for using martian air to resupply [with power, reaction mass, tankage , etc] weighs about the same, but it was launched on another rocket, and we don't leave until we know the supplies are waiting for us).

 

10 tons of life support, 20 tons of habitation space (equivalent to the planed hab modular of the ISS, which was supposed to house 6), and about 250 tons of propellant and engines. That's why propulsion is the problem. (The use of a refinery to make fuel on Mars cuts the propellant and engine wait from 550 to 250. That really helps).

 

Aerobraking adds about six months to the mission duration for each planet rendezvous you're going to make' date=' if you go that route, and if the aerobraking timeline is the same for a large manned craft as it is for a small unmanned one. I am far from convinced of that latter, as gas-drag forces generally don't scale linearly, and neither does mechanical strength for structures.[/quote']

 

This is all true, but. Actually using a shield to aerobrake cuts the slowing down period from months of careful nudging into a slightly declining orbit, dipping slightly into the upper atmosphere on each pass, shedding a few meters per second with each orbit to a single 0.5G deceleration (burning the shield in the progress). The Space Shuttle's nose is such a shield, as is the cone shape of the Apollo Command Module. (The space shuttle weighs trice what the Mars Direct hab does, and as you say mechanical strength and gas-drag forces don't scale linearly, making it far easier with this smaller module through a thinner atmosphere).

 

The typical Mars satellite and lander has to be as small as they can possibly be made because they have to be launched on boosters that can barely take 4 tons to Mars Transfer Orbit. The (Shuttle Derived) Ares or the Saturn V can take 46 tons into Mars Transfer orbit. With a 30 ton lander, that still leaves plenty of space for a heat shield for aerobraking and landing.

Re: Mars Colony?

If you're going to go in an Orion, don't go in the battlecruiser variant. It's optimized to work as a LEO space station (or staying in Geosynchronous Orbit over Moscow*). You need the good old transport.

* Technically south of Moscow over the equator, but still within firing range.

Re: Mars Colony?

What can be done to simulate Martian conditions in this case (what I thought had been done, and I now admit to failing to do due diligence), is

• Build the prototype
  
• Build an airtight box large enough to contain your prototype
  
• Put one inside the other and close the door
  
• Replace the air with a mixture of 95.3% CO2, 2.7% N2, and 1.6% Ar, with a trace amount of ozone and water vapor
  
• lower the temperature inside the box to about 220 degrees Kelvin
  
• Remove 99% of the gases inside the box to get the pressure down to 7 millibars (I believe this is the most challenging part, correct me if I'm wrong)
  
• Turn on your prototype

Again IIRC particulate density would be a function that would include gravity (known), air pressure (known), and wind speed (fairly accurate estimates if no direct measurement). Can cross check by how quickly particulates accumulated on solar panels of the probes on the surface (again, known). Without doing the math, feel safe estimating the density is going to be less than in an equal volume of Earth air. (And average particle size much smaller, which is a problem but not an insurmountable one.)

All I can add to this is some high school level math. PV=nRT. The ideal gas law tells us that gravity simply isn't a factor in determining pressure. Hence, all we need to test this thing is a pressure tank and a strong fan. Like, say the Mars Surface Wind Tunnel Lawnmower Boy was so kind as to point our attention to. It can be tested on Earth. It can be tested with no expensive facility building cost.

Thanks for the pointer. For those who haven't read it' date=' Zubrin and some colleagues received a small grant to build a Sabatier reactor at the Martin Marietta labs in late 1993. They assembled their testbed out of off-the-shelf components and did 12 runs in December and January 1993--4. They did not use "simulated Martian conditions."* They did not achieve anything like the volume of production needed. They did not purify the output, and waved in the direction of the technology needed to do it. Their longest production run was only 11 hours. [/quote']

 

All technically true, and fair points. However, you failed to mention that "small grant" meant 47,000 dollars (which in a 50 billion dollar project is pretty damn tiny). That they managed to achieve a 94% percent pure output without any attempt to purify it. As they "waved in the direction of the technology needed to do it" they described five specific existing methods that they could easily have used, if they had had the budget for it.

 

They didn't produce anything near the 106 tons needed, but then their prototype weighed 20 kg, compared to the 500 kg device described in Mars Direct. They used 160 watt, compared to the 5000 watt a Mars Direct solar panel would produce (each module carries a literal ton of solar panels) or the 80 000 watt a nuclear reactor would provide (Even a Radio Thermal Generator Array produces 60 times the power used in the test).

 

They did not use "simulated Martian conditions"; that claim was simply me miss-reading "The Case For Mars". I read "can be fully tested in advance in Mars simulation chambers on Earth" as has been fully etc. My mistake.

 

They certainly did not achieve hands-off production run.

 

Meaning that they didn't produce enough fuel to lift a payload from Mars to Earth? Here's a fun fact for you: rocket fuel like methane, liquid hydrogen, CO2 and liquid oxygen (all in high purity form) generally costs about 50 cent per kilo. A Mars return trip calls for 106 000 kilo of fuel. The budget was 47 000 dollars. I'm sure you can do the math, but the conclusion is that they couldn't afford the gasses they'd need to do so much less the tank.

 

But then, they got more money. The improved version is described in this newspaper article or this paper (which sadly isn't available for free). They built the intake system and the storage system, got the whole thing down to 20 kilo, tested it with Martian Air at Martian Pressure, and ran it for ten days strait without interference (this last claim I have from "the Case for Mars", but I can't confirm it from the actual paper).

 

This particular system was designed for a Mars Sample Return Mission, involving bringing just 4 kilo of rock back from Mars, and not quite on the scale of our 500 kg refinery. On the other hand, the full sized refinery can expect improved efficiency as the control systems take up a far smaller percent of the payload.

 

But to come back to my original question' date=' which was specifically about sealing off the compressor wheel, the first prong of the answer is that we're going to magically avoid dust storms. But dust storms aren't the only time that there are particulates in the air. The second prong is that you can hardly expect us to actually test this technology in Martian conditions without going to Mars first.[/quote']

 

Another fun fact, Mars Global Surveyor ha found that most martian dust is magnetic, implying a possible further way of reducing the levels of dust hitting the intake valve. And again I point out that NASA built the Mars Surface Wind Tunnel specifically to test this kind of thing without going to Mars. It can, and must, be pretested.

 

But first, could you please explain what you find magical about leaving an unmanned vehicle in orbit until we can confirm that the landing site (or one of the backup landing sites) is not currently experiencing a dust storm? Or the magic involved in confirming that there is unlikely to be a dust storm there in the next six days (by for example landing outside the dust season)?

 

 

 

I'm scaling down my involvement in this thread on the grounds that it's caused me to spend far too many words defending a plan I only approve off because it's likely cheaper and more likely to be approved than the one I'd prefer. (which is to spend the two heavy launches per window launching six man habs without bothering to get them home; or ideally launch a Sea Dragon [a hundred fricking tons to Mars surface; 8 Sea Dragons equals one Orion] with a crew of 25 each window. I'll have to write up an outline for that one some time.).

Re: Mars Colony?

Really? I might have rushed through the alphabet-soup of nomenclature' date=' assuming that the claims were being made for the interplanetary vehicle. [/quote']

 

Yeah, sorry about that. I didn't mean to make the post that long, but more ideas kept popping into my head.

 

But when I asked about lubrications and seals on the compressors of this self-contained chemical plant that's supposed to turn 8 tons of hydrogen into all of that fuel' date=' what I got was another spiel about how elegant the proposed synthesis is. [/quote']

 

Yeah, sorry, my point disappeared in my own ramblings. You mentioned that sealing dust from the turbine and valve was going to be a problem; I pointed out that (a) there was no turbine, ( it would take only six days to get the CO2 from the air (which is an important point as this is the only time dust can clog the system; Mars has a very short time limit to wreck the system), and © we can choose when and where to land to avoid a coming dust storm.

 

b and c adds a lot to our system reliability.

 

And I certainly do not believe that the ISRU module has been successfully prototyped. Nor' date=' apparently, does NASA.[/url'] They've got a Mars wind tunnel, though; excellent first step.

 

Cool link. It doesn't actually say NASA hasn't done a prototype, though. In fact, they have, but I can't copy the link to it, because Chrome has some issues with PDFs. Instead just google "Report on the Construction and Operation of a Mars In-Situ Propellant Production Unit". It's the first one.

 

The article simply states that NASA is spending a lot of money on In-Situ capabilities. Including using local rocks to help rovers figure out where they are (in the Marscape Test Facility). They also have a wind tunnel that they can depressurize (which is, quite rightly, the first of it's kind). It is hardly the first pressure chamber that can simulate Martian atmosphere, however. The actual test was done even cheaper; they just sealed off the intake valve and inserted a cocktail of gasses at martian pressure.

 

The ISRU Report (my "link") does however state that they didn't build a liquidfier, a vital part of the final design. I didn't know NASA had continued this kind of research but (Quoting your link): "ARC developed a flight qualified pulse tube cryocooler in collaboration with DoD, and demonstrated a liquefier for ISRU."

 

That fixes the difficult part. The one last part they haven't built is the zeolite CO2 acquisition system (I admit I didn't know they hadn't, I was under the impression that they'd put Martian gasses in a pressure tank, and let it rip). So, yes, I concur, the intake valve needs to be tested. Preferably in the wind tunnel with martian like dust thrown into the equation. Repeatedly, too. And if it can't offer reliable refueling enough for a return trip, some form of backup must be examined.

 

But where I still disagree with you is in that we need time. Waiting does nothing. If an intake valve needs to be thoroughly tested before it can be used on Mars, then the only way of getting it tested is start a project aimed at going to Mars. You can't sit and wait for a mission specific technology to be developed. It won't be. It has no other use. So I say ten years. Ten years to build a prototype, run it through every possible test, build a rocket to launch it, and train a crew. If you can show me that the list of needed technologies means ten years isn't enough testing time, then it will take 15, even 20. The point is that nothing gets done until someone says let do it. Waiting a generation solves nothing.

 

We can't launch tomorrow. We can't even launch in the December launch window. Heck, I have some doubts that we could launch this decade. But we won't be able to launch next decade, either, unless we start doing the engineering.

 

So, in conclusion, unless you can point to some vital technological development that we (a) don't have yet, and ( couldn't develop within ten years if it were made a direct goal, or that the total technological development would be impossible with a 3 billion dollar budget over a eight year period (and yes, I'm man enough to request NASA's entire human space flight budget, and to hell with the ISS), then I'll continue to believe that we could launch the first manned flight to Mars in March 2019, and land on Mars by the end of the year, if the project was started up tomorrow (or in the 2012 budget).

 

PS: The Suicide Run apparently is called Mars to Stay in front of tax payers. I'd prefer calling a spade a spade, but hey, whatever gets the funds.

Re: Mars Colony?

We probably could go to Mars if we really wanted to, but why would we want to?

For the science. A crewed mission is the best way of finally figuring out if there's life there or not. As can be seen from one on sub-discussions in this very thread, there is much disagreement on that point. Finding life on another world in our solar system would imply that life is the rule, making the galaxy rich in life. It would revolutionize all fields of biology and, like it or not, bio-research is what will be feeding your children. Studying Mars up close would also revolutionize geology, but no one but geologists care (unless the result is finding resources on Earth we didn't know were there).

For the safety. We're a single planet civilization. That's a horribly vulnerable situation to be in. There is an asteroid with our name on it out there. It's only a matter of time before it finds us.

For the technology. Methane based engines and rockets are a new technology. Reliable unmanned nuclear reactors is a new technology. NERVA, if they ever actually launch one, is a new technology (and one of the few anti-asteroid tools we have). Necessity is the mother of invention, and frontiers cause necessities like nothing else.

For the challenge. It's there. We could get there. We haven't.

For the money. It's a bit of a stretch, but Mars was formed the same way Earth was, with ores and veins of valuable minerals covering it. Unlike Earth, however, it hasn't had us grabbing the easy to get stuff for the past 10,000 years. It's still behind a 4km/s gravity well, though. The asteroid belt isn't. But Mars has fuel and UV protected soil, and unlike Earth is only behind a 4km/s gravity well. Mars is a great resupply station for asteroid mining operations. In fact, it's easier to resupply a lunar colony from Mars than from Earth. So if mining the Moon for aluminium or He3 is your thing... (or mining Saturn for He3, for that matter). It's more a fact of a martian colony being able to make money, really.

For the history. Remember who said "We choose to go to the Moon this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard"? Every one else does too. A politician or CEO wanting immortality need look no further. Heck, it's a decent premise to build an election campaign on, given that you'd get the entirety of Mars Society to back your campaign, as well as the Planetary Society and the National Space Society.

For the task. NASA has been "running on empty" since the end of Apollo, to the point were it's amazing they get some science done. The Shuttle project was devised to give NASA's rocket scientists something to do, and the ISS was devised to give the Shuttle something to do (rather than launching it from three Saturn V's, and crewing it from a Titan). And all of it designed to put as many jobs in as many states as they can, rather than to actually accomplish anything. Well, the Shuttle's dead and ISS has another 9 years to go (with a single Russian module left to launch). Curiosity is the last planed rover and its launching this year. Actually, see for yourselves: http://www.nasa.gov/missions/future/index.html 19 billion dollars a year, three future missions. All are nearing completion.

In short: It's about damn time.

Edit: I can't help but let another man conclude for me:

"Many years ago the great British explorer George Mallory, who was to die on Mount Everest, was asked why did he want to climb it. He said, "Because it is there."

Well, space is there, and we're going to climb it, and the moon and the planets are there, and new hopes for knowledge and peace are there. And, therefore, as we set sail we ask God's blessing on the most hazardous and dangerous and greatest adventure on which man has ever embarked."

Re: Mars Colony?

Let me step into conservative mode once again' date=' and point out that with appropriate 6P planning (Proper Planning Prevents P***-Poor Performance) even the refinery stuff stops being a necessity. Just send unmanned cargo vessels first. You can even wait until you are absolutely certain that they're in position before you launch the manned vessel.[/quote']

 

True, but sending supplies from Earth costs far more than making them onsite, and making them onsite has more long term advantages. Of course, if the refinery fails, you can always ship out supplies and have one of the engineers on the first crew mission figure out what went wrong.

 

And what is the effect of living 18 months at 1/3 G? That's what we don't know that we can't find out on Earth.

 

On rats, nothing. It's been tried in an orbital spin grav satellite. On humans; well there's an obvious place we can check, assuming you can find four people willing to take the risk. Pro tip: you can.

 

(1) You do know that the Victorians never made methane and water out of hydrogen+oxygen on Mars' date=' right? [/quote']

 

No, they did it no Earth, which has far less of the operative ingredient; CO2. The CO2 soaker is a solid block of zeolite. The Martian night cools it down to a temperature where it absorbs CO2, the lid closes at dawn, and CO2 is released as the Martian day, and the exothermic reactions required, heat it up. No turbine means only a simple filter is needed. The required CO2 is gathered up in six days. Unless you landed it in a dust storm, the filters won't clog in that time. (see aerobraking later for why you don't have to land if there's a dust storm). The system has been built and tested in a pressure chamber designed to simulate Mars.

 

what is your estimated life support stores expenditure from venting during assembly crew entry/exit of the life support module? (I could get really mean and ask the same question for the poop-venting during flight.)

 

In total: 15% of the hydrogen brought along (even with up to 30% the return flight is possible; the rovers use the spare fuel). Oxygen loss from the air lock is countered by the next door oxygen factory. The crew launch with the hab, so no assembly or LEO waiting. Oxygen loss during flight (including poo venting): 160 kilo each way, so 320 kilo total (20% of the required air). Poop venting itself: 6 tons (that's worst case, with the crew having to stay 5 years on Mars). Unrecoverable water (including pee): 3.4 tons (again worst case). Anything I've missed?

 

If we go to Mars without In-Situ Resource Utilisation' date=' we have to boost everything to Mars. Much more stuff launched. That's why ISRU was proposed. The fact that it's magic engineering doesn't change that. Ditto an unmanned nuclear reactor.[/quote']

 

The ISRU module has been built and tested already. 20 years ago. Landing it on an other planet will require some ruggedness testing, of course. But it should be possible. And the module they built out of spare parts weighs only half of the budgeted weight, so there's plenty of room for making it more rugged. Or bringing a spare.

 

The nuclear reactor, well, we'll need to develop them eventually, so why not use this project as our great chance? If we can't get a reactor working in time Radio Thermal Generators can provide a fifth of the power with the same weight. That slows the refining down significantly, but not fatally. (it's still done a year before the crew leaves; and the gathering of CO2 [which is sort of time critical due to dust] requires only the power to open and close a hatch).

 

Ramming the atmosphere at high speed was the suggested alternative. This is very different from braking back into Earth atmosphere' date=' a practice that is itself not entirely trouble free, and doesn't produce landing precision sufficient for Mars Direct. Doing this at high speed into an atmosphere of poorly defined parameters with an interplanetary vehicle is something that we might try --once we've done it a few times with unmanned probes. I'm sure that it's not impractical. We just have to learn how to do it, as opposed to pretending that we already do.[/quote']

 

All this would be true if the plan was to go strait from interplanetary travel to landing. The plan is to aerobrake into orbit and then land with the more traditional parachutes and rockets system. Which we've do with the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter, the Mars Odyssey and even the Mars Global Surveyor (despite it being damaged during Earth take off). And none of these satellites even carried a shield; the used their solar panels to brake.

 

Landing on Mars (while under directions from Earth 40 minutes of communication lag away) has been consistently done with 50 kilometer accuracy or better (both the vikings did les than 30 km). The piloted hab only needs to land within 1000 kilometers of the return vehicle to be able to use it (the hab has a pressurized rover on board). Miss by more than that, and the back up return vehicle just needs to land within 1000 kilometers of the hab. It can be directed in real time from the hab.

 

Oh, and as for aerobrake into landing scheme, we did that with Pathfinder, Spirit, Opportunity, and Phoenix. We've done it a few times with unmanned probes.

 

But the interplanetary vehicle is unrealistically small' date=' and the heavy booster needed is unrealistically large. Modified proposals involve much orbital assembly. I thought that it was worthwhile talking about the fact that we don't actually know how to do that yet.[/quote']

 

The heavy booster is a Saturn V, or a shuttle derived equivalent. If we can't build a 60's booster any more, that's the first sign of technological decline I've seen, and the thought is frankly scary.

 

The interplanetary craft has 50m^2 of pressurized floor space per astronaut (with 2.5 m head room for some reason). That's about three times the area I live in as a student. It's probably a bit cramped for a 180 day trip without being able to leave, but it's plenty once you're on the surface. Actually, scratch that. The living space per person is equal to the ISS. Plenty of space. Mars Society has run isolated bases with less space to prove that it works without the crew killing each other, and ESA are running a simulated trip to mars as we speak, with six people locked in a box for 3 years.

 

Speaking of the ISS. 15 pressurized modules assembled in orbit. Granted, they had the shuttle, we don't any more. Mir assembled five modules without any crew, however. ISS has had on site refueling. We have the technology for orbital assembly.

 

But say the 25 ton hab (that's just the mars surface payload, by the way, the full interplanetary craft is 140 tons) is optimistic. A single 140 ton engine stage (Saturn V class launch required) could easily boost a 50 ton payload to Mars orbit. Said payload could land about 35 tons on the surface. So now you need to launch the crew in a Falcon Heavy and do a crewed orbital link up before departure. We've done that at least 28 times on ISS alone (I don't have the exact data, so that's just the number of crews that have docked). Need something even bigger? Using staging (a 40's technology) three heavy launches (2 engine sections, one payload) lands about 50 tons. That's still only two launches per year, methane can be stored indefinitely in space (with a tight launch schedule and hydrogen fuel you can land 60 tons). Even that requires just two link ups. Which we've done over fifty off already.

 

Again. Nothing about a Mars trip is implausible. We just don't know how to do it yet. Mostly because we haven't worked out the concrete details of tedious sweat-the-small-stuff. That's why it isn't on the agenda for the near future.

 

Yes and no. The Beagle (Dr. Zubrin's supposed name for the hab) has not been designed yet. The technology exists, it just needs to be put together and launched so we can actually get there. The "small stuff" remaining is engineering, not research; the building and testing of the actual stuff you need. And that's always going to have to be done; you can't skip it, can't wait to let it resolve itself. The reason it isn't on the agenda for the near future is that President Obama is leading a country with extreme dept, and any lofty sounding plan for Mars Now! is going to have pundits screaming for blood at an expense that is actually cheaper than the current NASA plans of building an orbital vehicle they can't launch.

 

EDIT: Wow. Two new post while I was typing. Mars Direct calls for 4 people, NASA's DRM calls for 6.

Transporting Equipment is easy and comparatively cheap, thats why we often fire 2-3 Satiltes at once into orbit.

Transporting squishi humans is expensive.

 

The cheapest we can do today is about 4000 USD per kilo for cargo. Into LEO. To get cargo to Mars takes about 5 kilo per kilo of cargo. To get it back again takes about the same. That's 25 kilo launched into orbit for each kilo you want to take back from Mars. The MArs Direct return vehicle weighs 10 tons when it enters Earth's atmosphere. Hence You'd need to launch 250 tons to get it back, compared to the 140 tons of the empty one and the refueling system. 440 million dollars saved.

 

Longest time in Space is currently 803 days and Nasa already figured out how to have sex in 0-G/low G.

 

A common rumor. NASA's policy is always to say "no comment" when asked and no papers have been published on the topic by NASA.

 

Other assorted arguments for Mars Direct:

Compatibility with other missions: A 25 ton pressure sealed hab with rocket landing technology can be used on the Moon as well. As can the pressurized closed cycle rover. A heavy booster can launch space stations extremely cheaply (compare a 420 ton space station put together in orbit from 20 ton pieces to a 420 ton station put together from three 140 ton pieces). A fuel production center on Mars can fuel asteroid belt missions (it's actually far cheaper to refuel there than go direct).

 

Leaves the hab, power plant, rovers and refinery behind: You want a permanent Mars colony? A twenty year Mars Direct program leaves you with quarters for over fifty people, plenty of EVA suits and infrastructure. Even better, a stripped down hab (no rovers, science lab, return supplies, etc) could serve as an 12 man transport. 24 men per launch if you allow for the use of a NERVA upper stage.

 

Alternative mission plans:

It might be prudent to talk about the different types of mission plans exist today (for reference purposes).

Mars Direct: As explained above. Uses local supplies and low tech solutions where ever possible. Also one of the cheapest.

Suicide Run: The best way to avoid the costs of returning to Earth is to not return to Earth. The Suicide Run mission plan involves a one way trip for everyone involved with the goal of establishing a colony from the very start.

Big dumb booster: Orion, Sea Dragon, it really doesn't matter. Overcomes the problem of supplies with pure brute force. By launching a bigger rocket.

The 90-day Plan: von Braun and NASA's plan, as cancelled by Bush Senior. Includes the need for an orbital assembly station, lunar mining operation and nuclear (NERVA) engine. And yet, for all that, they spend 30 days on the surface.

Design Reference Mission: NASA's current plan. Looks a lot like Mars Direct, but leaves a return vehicle in mars orbit, and only uses ISRU for launching into Mars orbit.

 

Personally I'm a fan of the Big dumb booster/suicide run combination. It gets us a colony, and does so fast, and it's one of the few missions where I have a chance of coming along. But Mars Direct has a greater chance of actually being used, and getting there is more important than getting a COLONY NOW!.

Re: Mars Colony?

Sure, doing things in space is hard. But we have been doing them for over 50 years. Give me fifty billion (over the next ten years) and my own choice of staff, and I could put a man on Mars within the decade.

Radiation Shielding: A six month trip through space to Mars and back gives an increased risk of cancer of 0.905%. You have a base 20% risk of getting cancer. Tell me you wouldn't find volunteers.

Supplies: A human requires about 30 kilo of supplies per day (by NASA standards with double meal rations for better morale than the usual dried crap). 1 kilo of oxygen (can be recycled with 80% efficiency), 2 kilo of food (not recycled, except as extra water through peeing), 4 kilo drinking/cooking water (can be recycled with 80% efficiency), 23 kilo of washing water (can be recycled with 90% efficiency). Do the math and you end up with about 1700 kilo per person per year. But! Air and water can be gotten from a Victorian-tech refinery once you're on Mars. You could also get away with giving tightened washing rations in transit. In total you require about 2 tons per person. (I'm being optimistic; Mars Direct calls for 2.5 tons per person).

Enough fuel: The required Delta V to reach Mars in 180 days (given aerobraking) is 4.3 km/s, and getting back from the surface about 6 km/s. Assuming you cheat (use your Victorian-tech refinery to produce the return fuel on Mars) this is actually quite easy. A crew rated transport can manage to land about 18% of its Low Earth Orbit payload on the Marian surface. Two heavy boosters (one with the crew and their cabin and one with the return ship and the refinery) can launch your whole mission.

And all this tech has been functioning reliably since the late seventies. We know how to recycle oxygen and water. We know how to reach Mars cheaply. We know how to create methane and water from hydrogen feedstock (6 tons of Hydrogen becomes over a hundred tons of fuel and water). We know how to build heavy boosters. The only reason I'd need ten years and not five is that while the RL-10 rocket engine has reportedly been tested with methane fuel successfully, I'd like to give it (and all the other stuff) a more careful testing to avoid any embarrassing mistake.

Re: Mars Colony?

We could have pulled off Mars Direct in the seventies, if there had been the will to do so. Today it's a bit more difficult. There's nothing today that can lift as much as a Saturn V, so we'd either have to design a new Heavy Lift Rocket, or dig up the old plans start up a new production line of Saturns. There are no geologists in today's Astronaut Corp as their last (and only) one resigned in '75.

Basically, it became a lot harder after the Apollo program lost steam. But the basic technology has existed for years, and even the more high tech stuff like semi-robotic rovers has been tried and proven. The price tag is in the order of 50 billion over a twenty year plan, so about 15% of NASA's budget, compared to the ISS's 150 billion and the shuttle's 192 billion (in fact, if half the shuttle program's budget money now went to Mars Direct, we could land humans on Mars by the end of the decade).

But without sufficient political will...

Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits?

Once you go cyborg, you never go back.

Re: Cybernetics and Bioengineering: what are YOUR limits?

It mostly depends on how necessarily it is. If a body part is failing to the point where it damages my ability to function, there is no limit to how far I'd go to replace it. If I for example have the choice between a crippled arm or a cybernetic replacement, I'd take the replacement. And I'd prioritize functionality over looks. I'd rather have a slightly bulky metallic arm with the ability to carry more, and some nifty features like a built in harddisk, precise temperature/weight measuring device, hidden compartment, etc than a prosthetic with normal human capabilities.

I'd like to stay humanoid though, and I'd like to keep my face as it is (a cybernetic eye would have to have a lot of features before I'd take an obvious one over a prosthetic). I'd also prefer being symmetrical, except where asymmetry would look cool. I wouldn't like two different cybernetic arms, for example, but one obvious and bulky cybernetic arm and one normal human arm does have a certain appeal.

I'd take the more extreme options (brain-in-a-jar cyborg or uploading my personality into a computer) only in two situations: either when its the only way to continue living (where living is defined as being mobile, awake, and capable of functioning in society) or when it's proven to be hugely beneficial and completely reversible.

That leaves mental augmentation. Where do I sign? I'd be very happy to accept almost any type of mental augmentation that doesn't infringe upon my freedom. But built in cell phones (or better yet, a smart phone), AR, parallel processing and direct computer links are all good investments. I'd basically take anything I can afford.

Re: Turbo-Boost Energy Drink

Captain Citadel (a walking CIA listening station and chemical lab) should be able to figure out exactly what is going on. If that's not enough, his wife is a super chemist. In the short term, he'd increase the frequency of his patrols (there are always some idiots who figure being super fast allows them to commit petty theft unopposed) and make sure the drug is legal and safe for public use.

Re: Cat Up a Tree

Captain Citadel wears power armor, can fly, and has telekinesis. He'd probably fly up and pick up the cat personally, though, as to not freak it out more than necessarily.

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

Not sure if it's been said, but a good way of simulating gags, radio jammers, and other ways of blocking communication would be useful. There are workarounds (Darkness, change environment) but no clear way of directly stopping incantations. Not sure whether it would be best suited as some form of Flash or an adder to Entangles, or both, but there should be some clear rules for stopping transmissions.

Re: A Game Of Questions

Aren't we using a script?

Re: Strange events...what do YOU (not your character) do?

Step One: Wait a week. Both because I want to see how the world reacts to the appearance of superhumans (A global phenomenon, and I'm the only one who gets powers? I'm not that naive) and because easter week means moving from one of Norway's biggest cities (population almost 200 000; we're a tiny country) to a secluded mountain cabin.

Step Two: Explain away my sudden fitness with "I've been working out". My family haven't seen me for months, and my regular gang of friends haven't seen me for two weeks due to project work. I may need to get a small pillow to hide the sudden weight-loss from the local role playing community (which I interact with on a daily basis).

Step Three: Tell my family I'm going for a walk. I often do, and am generally gone for several hours, so that's okay. Bring ski-mask. It's Norway, and I am/was allergic to cold. No one would look twice.

Step Four: Experiment with jogging, running etc, to see how much my constitution has improved. Stick mostly to valleys rather than the exposed mountain tops.

Step Five: Eventually I’ll reach a secluded spot where I can start practicing the beam thing. I’d work on control first, learning how to aim it (if I can), seeing how noisy/flashy it is, observing any correlation between effort and effect. Once I have some idea of the basic power level, spread, and noise of the power, consider trying it at full power against a rock to see my actual power level.

Step Six: Scientific testing of the power. If I can fire a continuous beam, see how long it takes me to boil a liter (or metric ton, if a liter is near instant) of water. Compare energy output with food intake (I assume output will be higher).

Step Seven: Now that flight thing. Even more so than the EB, I want to be careful with this one. Find a really secluded valley, fly only at night. Sneaking out of the house could be problematic, but again, I can call it a walk, and get a free pass from whoever is still awake. Start with powered jumps, move on to low altitude hovering (or low velocity flight if I can’t hover), test and practice breaking before finding out how fast I can go. Test high velocity flight only over lake coasts.

Step Eight: By now it should be pretty clear what’s going on to the rest of the world. Some idiot has put on a cape and started fighting crime. And a dozen others have started amateur crime sprees and gotten caught, because, you know, they’re amateurs. Hope for a positive public view on super overall, but I am pessimistic.

Step Nine: I suspect the army will begin conscripting supers as soon as they can. I am eligible for conscription (I could be called in as soon as this summer, if they decide to refuse my application for delay due to ongoing education). They’d probably want to at least test all candidates, so I’ll get called in for that if nothing else. I’d probably end up joining the army (unlike in the US, the army can’t actually force me to Iraq/Afghanistan, so the worst I’ll be forced to do is fight local super crime). Norway’s the kind of country that could set up a quasi-military national super-team, give it insane amounts of founding, and not think twice about the implications.

Step Ten: Assuming I’m correct about being called in to a new army branch, and supers being barely tolerated by society, I’d try to focus my training on damage control, and friend/foe identification. I’d ask the army/conscripted super genius for some sort of protective suit, and, if regulations allow it, have it painted in a simple color scheme that complements my energy blast. I’d follow orders and try to impress upon my fellow conscripts that we’re going to need the public to trust us in the long run, so please don’t be d**ks. Also, I’d work towards getting some kind of commanding rank.

Step Eleven: Profit. Seriously, the army is one of the best paying gigs for a young Norwegian, especially as they get virtually all expenses covered. The dream is to be posted as team leader for a Trondheim or Oslo Super Team; somewhere with low enough crime rates that I can do some studying on the side.

Step Twelve: Depending on how the world evolves from this, and my comparative power level, I’d consider joining a UNITY type organization.

Re: Quote of the Week from my gaming group...

For anybody wanting to know what McGinty's new pet looks like

Obliviously opens link in new tab.

Remembers description from earlier quotes.

Carefully finishes chewing, and puts food away before looking at new tab.

Gah!

Arachnophobia triggered.

Will be unable to sit still for several minutes.

Repped.

Edit: Must spread blah blah...

Re: The Shepherd's Inquisition

Session 1

The inquisitors receive their briefing from their contact, whose name is not given, via holograph at their L4 space station. They are sent to the Nova Moscow colony to investigate a pair of murders that have tripped inquisitorial datataps as being potentially void related. The briefing is succinct as not a lot is known about the case.

Dmitri, a lawyer, was found dead in his office and Rosalina, a reporter, was found dead in her apartment 6 days later. Both showed signs of being tortured, and both were eviscerated by a six inch knife. Both rooms were locked and barred from the inside at the time.

The inquisitors, sans Threoh, make their way to Mars Orbit, and the Phobos spaceport, intending to take passage on a private freighter known to be heading that way. Threoh returns to his apprentice, and informs her that he is taking her to study the unusual minerals found in the mines of Nova Moscow. He then boards a separate transport to Phobos.

Antonin is quickly able to locate the ship going the right way, and arranges to meet the captain with Teal and John. Captain Calvert of the ship Lady Macbeth is initially suspicious of the inquisitors, first naming a ridicules price for the journey then offering to charge them a tenth of it in exchange for them revealing the true purpose of their mission. After he casually sees through three lies made by them, Teal and Antonin get suspicious that something not entirely natural is going on. Teal continues the negotiations while Antonin discretely looks into Calvert’s records. He discovers a number of abnormalities, but fails to ascertain anything definite.

They eventually satisfy the captain by admitting that they believe the colony, or potentially the whole Confederacy, could be in danger, and intend to do what they can to prevent it.

Nemesis meets with Captain Calvert next, having confirmed that no other ships will be heading for Nova Moscow for several weeks. When submitted to the same treatment as the earlier group he simply states that he is a private investigator who has been hired to look into an ongoing investigation on the planet. This explanation is accepted by the captain, who still charges him twice what the earlier group paid.

Threoh and his apprentice now meet with the captain, who refuses to believe he is in such haste to study rocks. Threoh makes vague allusions that lead Calvert to conclude he is traveling with the others, while keeping the apprentice in the dark. Threoh also discovers that he is more expensive to transport as cargo than as a passenger, to his surprise.

The trip is uneventful, though the inquisitors are understandably concerned during the dip through the void and the horrors hidden in it.

Upon arrival, the inquisitors first set up a base of operations in a Blue Suns Hotel. Antonin, Nemesis and John (the three inquisitors with paranoia) decide to share a defensible conference suite while Threoh and Teal take private rooms.

The inquisitors decide to split up to cover more ground. Antonin and Teal head to Dmitri’s office, intending to claim to be working for his life insurance company. Threoh and John decide to go to Rosalina’s office, pretending to have a scheduled meeting with her. Nemesis will go and declare himself to the local police department and request case access.

At Dmitri’s office the inquisitors discover that he had just pulled of an incredible case, getting local crime boss Vlad arrested. He was also apparently working on some follow up case, but didn’t want to tell anyone before he was completely sure. The two inquisitors decide to talk to the man who found Dmitri, Stephan.

Threoh and John have some problem getting more than gossip from the news paper secretary due to their cover not having an in-built right to ask questions. The do however discover that there has been a third killing at a public arcade and that Rosalina was acting more paranoid than usual the last few days before her murder.

Nemesis had some trouble getting access to the police station, but once it was made clear that he was in fact allowed to walk around with a gun on his shoulder he was allowed to speak with the officer in charge of the investigation. Chief Ivan briefed Nemesis on the murders personally. Information shared included a cut down version of the case files, a list of what was stolen from each site (generally odd items, including a potted plant, the lower half of a refrigerator’s contents, two staples and an arcade game), a summary of the autopsy report (the victims showed heavy signs of torture and extreme blood loss related to being nailed upside down to a wall, but the cause of death was a vertical incision with a six inch blade, starting below the navel and ending at the rib cage), and the odd detail that every location was soundproofed at some unknown time before the murders. Chief Ivan ended the interview by offering Nemesis a place to stay, but was assured that he had found a motel.

Antonin and Teal reach Stephan and are allowed to speak to him (they had some difficulty attracting his attention by knocking on his door; like Dmitri’s office to doors away, his office is soundproofed). Stephan isn’t able to give the inquisitors much new information, though claims not to have realized that his room was sound proofed before the police investigation discovered it and confirms that Dmitri was working on something big.

The inquisitors meet up, resolving to visit each crime scene in turn starting with Rosalina’s apartment. They are interrupted in their discussions by the crime photos being sent over to Nemesis. He is unmoved by the carnage (having seen Serpents do far worse), but Teal views it over the Hive Mind and is horrified.

Using Threoh’s unusual abilities the Inquisitors manage to get access to Rosalina’s apartment where they confirm that she had an unused pistol nearby when she was attacked and showed signs of habitual paranoia. They find several hidden compartments around the house, including a rough draft of a news article titled “Vlad’s Bloody Brother”. The article accuses the unnamed brother of using his position to cover for Vlad, money laundering, and cult activities, giving the inquisitors a clear suspect for the killings, as well as a link between the first two killings (Dmitri was Rosalina’s source for the article). They still don’t have a name for the brother though, and a search through the colony records shows only a corrupted file that confirms that Vlad has a half sibling.

The kitchen where Rosalina was killed, still sporting a chalk outline and a pool of blood and guts (that have decayed for 10 days), causes several inquisitors stress, especially Threoh, who is uncomfortably reminded of his own corpse.

They head for Dmitri’s office next, this time gaining access through Nemesis’s PI license. Antonin has some trouble disguising himself, but Stephan fails to recognize him. Teal has no such issues, of course, deciding to return as a Russian-Ethnic female. At the office they discover a three inch long footprint in the dirt from the stolen potted plant, sparking jests of possessed manikins. A call to the police department (where Nemesis skillfully avoids mentioning that he and his team are trespassing on a crime scene without permission) crime scene investigator Gregori (who has been assigned to liaison with Nemesis) claims police records dismiss the foot-print as scene contamination, but expresses skepticism towards this conclusion after reviewing the evidence. They fail to find any hidden compartments or files at the site.

The Inquisitors decide to stop for dinner before continuing, though Nemesis notes that this might not be wise, as the next scene is rather fresher than the last two. Threoh returns to his apartment to eat dinner with his apprentice (though in his case this is more a case of consuming mass), while the others have hamburgers at the mall where the arcade is.

They meet up at the arcade, with impresses the Jovians with its extent and variation. They are initially denied access to the site, but Gregori, seeing a chance to undermine the authority of “the Officer Jocks”, let them in to the storeroom where Vasiliy was killed. Though the first shock of the site makes a lasting impression on the inquisitors, sending Nemesis running out the door to steady himself and Threoh seeking the blessed sensory deprivation of the floor (dangerously close to going insane), they quickly outclass the CSI agents present.

Nemesis’s “Crime Bug” quickly scans the site, confirming the time of death (last night) and a general lack of forensic evidence consistent with the other sites. Threoh, after calming down, combs the floor, walls and ceiling for footprints and other evidence and looks through the arcade games for hidden compartments, but fails to find anything. Antonin uses an EM scanning device to locate Vasiliy’s cell phone, discovering that he a) was sent to this room three hours before his corpse was discovered, and that he met a Viktor Semenov who seemed to want access to the room.

Finding this extremely interesting, especially after a contact reveals that Viktor may have been planning an inside job against the secure transport firm he works for, the inquisitors decide to speak with him at the earliest opportunity. Otherwise they find little of interest and return the phone to the police after adding a wiretap in case someone calls it.

Hacking the secure records of Viktor’s employer isn’t a problem for Nemesis, who has a lot of experience with these kinds of businesses. They find he is currently in transit, and move to intercept him as he arrives with a large sum of money at the First Bank of Nova Moscow.

Heading there in all haste, they barely arrive before the armored truck pulls in. Quickly arguing to be allowed access (Nemesis’s Zergling doing a lot of the persuading) they’re given a front row seat view to the truck’s door being opened.

Viktor is nailed upside down to the inside of the mysteriously sound proofed truck, all his blood drained out on the floor mixing with the bills inside. There is a shockingly large amount of blood, which comes pouring out of the truck when the door is opened. This is too much for Threoh, who snaps under pressure and begins desperately expanding himself in an attempt to feel solid again. This leaves the inquisitors with not just a new body, but also a classic gray goo scenario. After recovering from the shock (only Nemesis and one of the bank workers managed to remain focused), the inquisitors begin investigating the site. Antonin checks over the corpse, and is disappointed to find that he wasn’t carrying his phone. Nemesis and the “Crime Bug” spring into action, discovering that Viktor was alive only 15 minutes ago and half of a bloody bill where the other half has been cut away of has simply disappeared. Teal meanwhile attempts to talk Threoh out of eating the planet.

By the time the police arrive, the inquisitors are ready to leave, and are already planning an emergency therapy session, both for themselves and especially for Threoh. They meet up in their rented conference room, after some trouble convincing Threoh that talking about it will help. The therapy goes amazingly well, bringing Threoh back from the brink of insanity, and doing wonders for the other’s nerves.

That is until, in a lull in the conversation, Teal notices that the sound of people passing in the corridor outside is strangely missing. They hear some rustling in the corners of the room and the soft click of the door being locked. Everyone grabs their weapons, except Threoh who begins sinking into the floor, intending to leave the room shoot the lock, and hope the others survive.

What's this? A new campaign? Gnaskar's first try at a non-super-heroic game? Pretty much. Finding that my schedule had unexpectedly cleared up I prepared a list of possible campaigns and had interested players vote on which to run. The result was a Sci-Fi Action Horror Adventure, increasingly loosely based on a mix of Warhammer 40k and The Reality Dysfunction.

The Universe

In the 26th century humanity finally invents faster than light travel. The only problem (discovered 50 years later, by which time the economy is utterly dependent on FTL) is that the Void isn’t a feature-less space as first believed but rather as close to hell as one can get. And the locals are very interested in the ships that are starting to appear travelling through it…

Rather than risk collapsing the frail economy and ending humanity’s golden age, the AI known as Shepherd instead funds a clandestine organization dedicated to preventing Void Incursions and combating Void Entities as well as other supernatural threats. The Shepherd’s Inquisition is born.

In the mean time, humanity has split into three factions, now finally uniting into the Confederacy:

The Necrahians, a cult turned technocracy based on the teachings of Necrah (whose real/full name has never been discovered) have advanced nanotechnology, and a distinctly creepy styling (they use a color scheme of black and neon-green, a naming scheme centered around the undead, and generally appear to purposefully seem creepy and mysterious to outsiders).

The Jovians, a Hive Mind with advanced bio-tech, for whom the Zerg, the Tyranids and the Edenists have been named as sources of inspiration. They have a remarkably stable society due to the mind link that makes the discovery of psychological disorders remarkably easy, and treatments even more so. However, this also means that only the smartest and most careful sociopaths avoid detection. These so-called Serpents are a constant threat to society, and a special force known as Peacekeepers exists to hunt them down.

And the ordinary mortals who make up the rest of humanity.

The Players

Anonin Delacroix: A Tau Ceti hacker, conman and downright criminal, Anonin provides the team with access to the criminal underground as well as innumerable databases and secure sites.

John Hearst: An ex-confederate marine turned mercenary (well before his service time was up), John provides the team with significant muscle and military hardware.

Threoh Diode Takcravinath: One of the stranger team members, Threoh is not only a Necrahian but also a Digital Intelligence (a human mind uploaded into a computer) inhabiting a cloud of nanites. A scientist (well, Formshaper, the Necrahian equivalent), he provides the team with scientific understanding, and the intriguing possibility of walking through walls and transforming matter as needed.

Teal: A Jovian actor, biologically enhanced to be able to assume any humanoid shape, Teal provides the team with unique infiltration abilities. He’s also one of the most high profile members of the team which can give them access to high society, but also comes with its own problems.

Nemesis: A Jovian Peacekeeper, given official sanction to hunt down the sociopathic Serpents, Nemesis is a skilled investigator and a powerful warrior. With him he as a faithful companion in his travels he has a “Zergling” attack dog. Nemesis is probably the least subtle team member with a shoulder mount that aims wherever he’s looking and no experience with life outside of a hive where everyone can read your intensions from the inside of your head.

Re: Near-human genetics

I guess someday some scientist will try invitro Fertalization of a Human/Chimp Hybrid, implant it into a Female Chimp and then watch what happens. So far the revulsion that most feel about such a critter has kept anyone from trying, but it's just a matter of time.

The Soviets did try it at some point. Or, at least they tried whatever equivalent was available at the time - I really didn't want to do more than skim through the how and why of it. I did however use them in my Every-Conspiracy-Is-True setting, as easy to mind control mooks. Also, monkey-hybrids with Kalashnikovs climbing outside a skyscraper was too cool an image for me not to use.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanzee

Re: I need cheap(-ish) liftoff.

If you need to launch it in one go, your choices get far fewer. That's pretty much only "feasible" with Nuclear Pulse Propulsion, aka riding up on a nuclear machinegun. The good news is that the theory is sound, NASA is working on it, and that it's relatively cheap (depending on the exact price of 800 nuclear bombs). The bad news is that you're launching 800 0.14kton nukes at the ground below you, which we simply don't know the effect off (as for some reason they've never tried).

Re: Project Pterosaur

I'd like to post a simple challenge before we go off arguing how ridiculous this site is. I'll believe the site is real when someone posts the GPS coordinates and web page link to this Fellowship University or the Mt. Fellowship Church. Because I can't find it, and that's a pretty clear indication that it ain't real.

I think that it is highly unlikely' date=' but if there is a chance isn't more scientific to rule out the possibility than to accept the dogma of it is a dinosaur therefore it is automatically extinct?[/quote']

 

Sure, and about a hundred and fifty years of solid effort has just about ruled out the possibility. At this point, going out into the wilds of Africa to hunt for dinosaurs is about as funny for biologists as the CERN research team was trying to find evidence of the four elements would be for chemists. Or finding the edge of the earth for a astrophysicist.

 

The first rule of science is don't go out with an expectation of what your result will be; your job as a scientist is to discover the truth, not confirm your beliefs. That's the main issue I have with this (fictional) expedition. Had they gone out to explore a barely explored jungle to find new species I'd bee happy to let them (heck, if they gave a good pitch I might donate to it).

Re: Web-slinger: fun with spider webs

How many times have you seen Spiderman yanked forward or into a wall by an enemy he'd hit with a net line that turned out to be stronger than he looked? Of course you can hurt him using the net. There's just usually another special effect than "cutting" involved.

Re: Inspiration for Dark Champions protective gear

It's good, but it's not bullet proof. Notice how they always hit it with a distributed force, except (sort of) during that cone thing. I figure it would be great for stopping a baseball bat or a tire iron, but not much use against a knife or a machete. Or a gun.

I'd say 4-6 non-resistant PD, and maybe 2-3 resistant with a Only Vs. Distributed Forces limitation of some kind.

On the upside, it is fairly cheap, at about 650 USD for a full suit (minus the helmet).

Re: Non-lethal melee weapons

No mention of auto-injectors? Granted, even with the most effective drugs it would take a few seconds to bring down a target, and without some way of guessing dosage it could go really, really wrong, but it's still a decent, if expensive (if you want it safe), non-lethal melee weapon.

the way it would work is basically a device with sensors for detecting blood veins and a needle with a vial of drugs. Apply device on skin, it finds best targetable vein, injects needle and applies drug. With more advanced tech you could add say mild armor penetration ability (needles of high tech materials, and sensors that work through the armor), dosage guess based on targets mass (or, heck, just estimated from height). Blood veins could be detected with heat detection, or maybe from the noise the moving blood makes makes, ultrasound or what have you.

And, as an added bonus, you could fill it with whatever drug you want depending on desired effect. Or could even be an improvised weapon taken from a medkit and loaded with a la-la-land drug. I could see a medical character sneaking up on, and taking out, a thug with something like that.

Painless? Pretty much. Harmless? Depends on the drug tech you've got. I suspect there would be a trade off point between how fast it works and how few side effects there are. It also has the same abuse and torture problems; even if one dose can be applied mostly safely and painlessly, the can't necessarily be said for two or three doses, and if it can be loaded with anything there is a lot of torture potential.

There is a brilliant crime novel where the protagonist get one of these from the CIA, but the name alludes me. At one point he tortures a thug with it by paralyzing him and letting him choke to the last possible moment before injecting an antidote, but it's mostly used to knock people out.

Re: Why We Should Go Into Space

Everyone's a Hero. Just thought I'd point that out.

But yes, Space Nownownow isn't the way to go. But on the other hand, neither is The Governments Keep The ISS Floating 'Til 2020, Everything Else Is The Private Sector's Job. We should have some new goal in space that was made this millennium (love how I can correctly apply that term to everything older than twelve years). The Space Shuttle is dead, Constellations is gone, the ISS has another 9 years before it burns, Virgin Galactic has been saying "by the end of this year" for the last 4 years, and that's it for our current manned space flight projects. Whatever happened to "We set sail on this new sea because there is new knowledge to be gained, and new rights to be won, and they must be won and used for the progress of all people.", to "Boldly going", or to the "too small and fragile a basket"?

Last century was epic, but we're not really doing anything towards outdoing it this century. We done nothing to justify "the twenty-first century is when everything changes. And you've got to be ready."