Quasar

My claim is that buying a high DEX offsets (or buys down) the drawbacks of such a maneuver by allowing you to abort earlier in the next phase. I said "DEX and SPD scores" for a reason. I do think about their dexterity and speed (notice the lack of system terminology and the word "scores"). Quasar frequently moves on his DEX when he isn't particularly afraid of taking a hit or two. The difference is "brash" and "cautious" fighting. The whole paragraph above is pure metagaming. My character's concept is high DEX, not low DEX and levels. I think another area where we differ is in basic role-playing definition. In comics I have never seen a hero in the same attack mode and pose frame after frame. That would be boring so comic artists don't do it (but it would be extremly efficient). Champions attempts to simulate comic books, so doing the same thing all the time regardless of your reasoning is not comic book, and is therefore not role-playing the genre. I think these considerations are prime to good, "in character" role-playing...apparently you do not. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Quasar Leader of Millennium Force

I guess I have trouble seeing your point because Quasar does just fine without resorting to those types of maneuvers. Since 5E came out Quasar has never used the rapid fire maneuver. As a player I know it is there, and I know it's effects, but it simply isn't part of Quasar's fighting style, so therefore he doesn't use it. Now if Quasar were in a one on one fight with a very tough villain and about to get trashed, he might resort to that maneuver to save his butt (but it would be an in character decision). Aftwards I would make a role-playing decision as to whether or not he made that maneuver a part of his fighting style. My gut reaction after playing Quasar for 20 years is that it really isn't his style, so he would only pull it out again if in a similar situation. Another example to illustrate how I role-play regarding efficiency... Almost all the heroes in Millenium Force have martial arts maneuvers. The combat value of maneuvers can be immense depending on what you do with them and at a base 9 CV Quasar is one of the most vulnerable members of Millennium Force. I toyed with the idea of buying him martial arts with experience, but rejected it almost immediately because it isn't in his concept, and such a decision would be pure metagaming. I'm not saying my solution is the best way to handle it, I just think it is better than bringing d20 mechanics into Hero. Look, paying for a high DEX is essentially paying off the maneuver disadvantage. I don't see the problem. You allow campaign disadvantages to be bought off with experience, right? Unless some other villain is holding, and jumps in after you. It is rare that I think about villain DEX and SPD scores in game. I might have a vague sense that Goth hasn't gone yet and I think she has the same SPD as Quasar, but I try very hard to focus only on what the character can percieve...what currently has grabbed his attention. Actually we do have characters who would be considered junior members of Millenium Force. My second character The Shade (BTW, both he and Quasar are available for review in Storn's Art & Characters thread) would get killed in a lot of situations where Quasar could hang well enough, but he adventures with the main characters from time to time. His tactic in those fights is invariably to hold and see what happens before committing. It is cautious and frankly the only thing that keeps him alive sometimes. Which is why I agreed with tesuji that metagaming is hard to pin down. Metagaming takes place mainly in the mind of a player, and who among us can actually read minds? I think though that mature gamers, who are less interested in WINNING at all costs and more interested in telling an engaging and exciting group story will avoid metagaming like the plague. From my point of view, I can think of nothing more boring than delay, delay, delay...and that is enough reason for me not to do it. Quasar Leader of Millennium Force

Bad analogy. Beating someone's head in does not equate to driving to work. One word for you...restraint. In our campaign the law comes down hard on the use of excessive force. If Stalker (a vampire/ninja "Blade" type character) starts splitting Viper agent skulls with his katana (his most effective attack, but downright deadly to agents), he will go to jail. Although Quasar has a 14D6 EB, he wouldn't necessarily use all 14D against an opponent unless he thought it wouldn't be excessive. Pulling punches is fairly common in our campaign and not terribly effective, but still in character. Now remember that I do not think the "hang myself out to dry then abort" combo is abusive in any way. My stance is that simple GM fiat should be enough to stop the perceived abuse, without some additional rule from another game system. I think your use of the term "end of phase" is where the problem comes in. In my campaign we simply say "holding," and when we want to act interject our wish to do so. If we end up acting way before the end of the phase or right at the end we have no way of knowing until the GM starts at the top of the DEX order again. If someone at the table actually said, "I'm holding until the end of the phase," I think we'd all stare at them dumbfounded and/or laugh at them. When a hero and villain are both holding waiting for the other to act, they would probably both hold through the end of the phase and into the next if neither flinched. Once again remember that I don't think your example is abusive, but if the whole table of players is using the same tactic then I doubt they put much thought into a real character concept, but instead made cookie cutter combat efficient characters. Not my idea of role-playing at all. In fact I am so against making any decisions in character design that are based solely on efficiency that I frequently get in arguments with members of my own group. To me concept isn't just everything, it's the only thing. I totally disagree. Why can't a character (not a player) determine when they are in dire straights? The hero might be thinking, "I feel like I've been hit by a truck, I just did that thing that leaves my back all exposed, and here comes Doc D with that killer attack of his again...this is gonna hurt...unless I try to dodge it." I don't see any metagaming there. I think you are assuming (unless I typed the word player by mistake in a previous example) that a character cannot assess his own physical and tactical situation. I assume they can. Quasar Leader of Millennium Force

Here you go...The ShadePlayer: Alex Karaczun Val Char Cost 20 STR 10 26 DEX 48 25 CON 30 15 BODY 10 15 INT 5 13 EGO 6 20 PRE 10 14 COM 2 7/10 PD 3 7/10 ED 2 6 SPD 24 9 REC 0 50 END 0 38 STUN 0 6" RUN02" SWIM04" LEAP0Characteristics Cost: 150Cost Power END 60 Molecular Control: Multipower, 60-point reserve 3u 1) Phase Dodge: Physical Damage Reduction, Resistant, 50% (30 Active Points) 3u 2) Phase Dodge: Energy Damage Reduction, Resistant, 50% (30 Active Points) 6u 3) Phase Shifting: Desolidification , Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4), Usable By Other (+1/4) (60 Active Points) 5 1u 4) Gliding 11" (11 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (-1/2) [Notes: Must full move downward for every 1" forward. Cannot gain altitude.] 5u 5) Phase Punch: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1d6+1 (1 1/2d6 w/STR), No Normal Defense (+1), Does BODY (+1) (60 Active Points); No Knockback (-1/4) [Notes: Defense is any type of Force Field.] 6 1u 6) No Air Friction: Running 5" (10 Active Points) 1 6 Cloak: +3 with DCV (15 Active Points); Activation Roll 11- (-1), OIF (-1/2) 8 Instant Change: Cosmetic Transform 2d6 (Costume into any clothing), Improved Target Group (+1/4) (12 Active Points); Limited Target Limited (-1/2) 1 13 Life Support (Safe in High Pressure; Safe in High Radiation; Safe in Intense Cold; Safe in Intense Heat; Safe in Low Pressure/Vacuum; Self-Contained Breathing) (19 Active Points); Linked (Phase Shifting; -1/2) 5 Strong Willed: Mental Defense (8 points total) Powers Cost: 111Cost Martial Arts Maneuver 4 Counterstrike: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +2 DCV, 6d6 Strike, Must Follow Block 4 Fast Strike: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +0 DCV, 6d6 Strike 5 Flying Dodge: 1/2 Phase, -- OCV, +4 DCV, Dodge All Attacks, Abort; FMove 3 Legsweep: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, -1 DCV, 5d6 Strike, Target Falls 4 Martial Block: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +2 DCV, Block, Abort 4 Martial Dodge: 1/2 Phase, -- OCV, +5 DCV, Dodge, Affects All Attacks, Abort 3 Martial Throw: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +1 DCV, 4d6 +v/5, Target Falls Martial Arts Cost: 27Cost Skill 3 Acrobatics 14- 3 Breakfall 14- 3 Concealment 12- 3 Criminology 12- 3 Deduction 12- 10 Defense Maneuver I-IV 3 Forensic Medicine 12- 3 Interrogation 13- 3 Power 11- 5 Rapid Attack (HTH) 3 Stealth 14- 3 Streetwise 13- 3 Tactics 12- 24 +3 with All Combat Skills Cost: 72Cost Talent 6 Combat Luck: 3 PD/3 ED Talents Cost: 6Val Disadvantages 20 Dependent NPC: Fiona Wagner (wife) 11- (Occasionally), Normal, Unaware of character's adventuring career/Secret ID 15 Enraged: When witnessing normals killed by supers Common, go 11-, recover 14- 10 Hunted: The Mob 8- (Occasionally), Less Powerful, NCI, Harshly Punish 20 Hunted: V.I.P.E.R. 11- (Frequently), As Powerful, NCI, Harshly Punish 20 Psychological Limitation: Code vs Killing Common, Total 10 Psychological Limitation: Vengeful Uncommon, Strong 10 Reputation: Vigilante, Frequently (11-) 15 Social Limitation: Secret ID (Simon Wagner/Millenium City Assistant Coroner) Frequently (11-), Major 5 Social Limitation: Harmful Secret - His hero activities could cost him his job if revealed Occasionally (8-), Minor 25 Susceptibility: Containment Fields, 1d6 damage per Segment Common Disadvantage Points: 150Base Points: 200Experience Required: 16Total Experience Available: 19Experience Unspent: 3Total Character Cost: 366 Height: 1.91 m Hair: Brown Weight: 92.00 kg Eyes: Brown Appearance: The Shade appears as a tall skinny man dressed in an impeccably tailored black double breasted suit. Over the suit he wears a black high collared cape which billows about as if blown by wind even when there is no breeze. He also wears black leather gloves, black dress shoes, and a black, wide brimmed hat (similar to a Stetson). His face is obscured in shadows except for the occasional glint from his eyes. He often carries a black walking cane topped with a golden lion's head.Personality: Quote:Background: Powers/Tactics: The Shade's primary power is his Phase Punch which allows his fist (or foot) to enter an enemy's body partly desolidified causing major cellular disruption damage. The Shade is also an accomplished martial artist. His style is similar to French Savate, and uses his walking cane.Campaign Use: Quasar Leader of Millennium Force

Exactly! It makes more sense to maneuver around setting up attack combos, finding weakness, targeting, or powering up full phase powers than blowing all sorts of END for little return. It seems to me that opposing groups would spend this time assessing their enemies rather than blasting away with all they have. Quasar Leader of Millennium Force

First off let me say I appreciate your posts because they seem well thought out and not terribly confrontational. To respond to the quote above... Sure he should be able to, except that the usage of the term "end of phase" should not be used by the player or GM. Instead the player should be allowed to hold until he wishes to act. Like it or not beginning a combat on phase 12 adds a metagame tag to the end of the first phase, known as the post-12 recovery. From there on GM's should give no indication that phases have ended other than starting at the top of the DEX order again (at which time it should be too late for a character to say, "Wait, I was holding to the end of the X!"). The problem only comes when this becomes a consistently used tactic to avoid being vulnerable. When I put points in DEX one of my thoughts (if the concepts is a fast, agile, tactically experienced guy) is that he should be able to do just that if the situation is dire enough to warrant it. However, the ability to do something should not always translate into doing that very thing whenever the opportunity arises. Doing so is immature from a gaming standpoint, and wouldn't be tolerated in my group. The common reaction to such a maneuver in a comic (and I can hear Bob saying this as if he were here) would be a surprised look on the villains face an a dialog bubble saying, "I have you now Quasar...What?...h-how?!?" This kind of surprise would never happen in tesuji's games, because he has created a mechanic to entirely prevent it rather than just counting on his players to not act immaturely. IMO the Hero System is complex enough and can bog down dreadfully in large combats without the addition of more rules. I just think tesuji is adding complication that doesn't need to be there (I am assuming) because he can't control his players/friends and count on them not to act immaturely. Quasar Leader of Millennium Force

Metagaming is certainly a tough beastie to pin down, but is easy enough to stop in a group of mature individuals. As I said, the group I play in simply doesn't do it. What that means is that my character, though fairly intelligent and tactical (as in he bought the tactics skill) sometimes makes bad decisions or misses something he should see. It's called role-playing, not war gaming. If my GM thinks I wouldn't see an attack coming he tells me to make a PER check, or if I fail to see an especially effective attack possibility he might suggest a tactics check. However, sometimes I decide that my character has missed an opportunity that I as a player see, or I deliberately make a bad decision based on a Psych Lim. What you seem to be saying is that because you don't have players who are able to control themselves in the same way, you need to concoct a rule to keep them in line. Simply telling them that a certain behavior is unacceptable is a far more elegant a way to handle something than adding rules from other very different systems and not fully thinking out the ramifications of such a rule. Whether or not you believe it to be true, your rule devalues DEX in that although the time a character is vulnerable MAY be lessened, their choice is taken away from them in the next phase. Choice is far more powerful an advantage than ANY of the drawbacks are crippling IMO. Go ahead and mix and match your systems if you want to, it's your game and the only ones you have to answer to are your players. Just don't think we're all going to "ooh and aah" your creation. Quasar Leader of Millennium Force

Once again you fail to see the forest for the trees. The major advantage of buying a high DEX is being able to choose when you go (NOT going first!!!). If you choose to go on 30 every phase you act and end up getting clobbered in fights with large numbers of opponents then it serves you right for being an idiot. In games like D&D (which it is plainly, or painfully, obvious where you got this notion) where a character's defensive rating rarely changes, order of action makes little difference. Delaying in D&D is most often done in my experience so that a path can be cleared for the delaying character to get into a better tactical position, or something similar. In Hero not only do opponents not have threatened zones around them, but characters (especially in Champions) tend to move around the board with impunity and defensive values can vary wildly. D&D mechanics have no place transplanted into Hero. It seems I was replying to the wrong person when I made the comments about metagaming. If you have such need of this mechanic in your games, it sounds like metagaming is the problem...not the Hero System rules. Tell your players that unless they can justify tactically (in the context of the fight) why they are holding, they simply will not be allowed to hold and will lose their action entirely unless they act at their DEX. That is a much more elegant system than the monstrosity you've concocted. Quasar Leader of Millennium Force

No you're penalizing the example character for buying a high DEX, plain and simple. He spent a lot of points for that high DEX that Giganto instead put in STR. Now if you discounted the cost of DEX (because you are reducing it's effectiveness) then I might not have a problem with your rule. Quasar Leader of Millennium Force

I just had to jump in here, and yes...I am THAT Quasar. Keneton's example is straight from dozens of examples of how we play the game. If your example comes from your own experiences then it sounds to me like you have a really bad problem with metagaming in your group. In our group we are very tactical, but we don't allow knowledge of rules mechanics to influence our decisions. It's a simple matter of just choosing not to do it. The only time I have seen this sort of thing become a problem is in a group of people who must win at all costs, where the need to win overrides the will not to metagame. I'd hazard a guess that the problem lies with your players and not the rules themselves. Just my two cents worth. Quasar Leader of Millennium Force

Anyone else here think Supergirl would be offended? Oh wait...she's not for real either. Quasar Leader of Millennium Force

No problem. I'm just that kind of guy. Quasar Leader of Millennium Force

I would argue that Champions, Champions Universe and CKC are "basic" source material for playing Champions. Your argument is like saying (using the D&D example) that you have the Players Handbook, but don't understand why you can't play an adventure you bought when you don't have the Monster Manual, or Dungeon Master's Guide. I also have to agree though that a disclaimer saying "Use of this product requires the Hero System 5th Edition Rulebook, Champions and Conquerors, Killers and Crooks." wouldn't be asking too much. Quasar

Well I voted 5 stars.For those of you who might be interested, here is the current write up of Quasar to go along with the picture.QuasarPlayer: Alex KaraczunVal Char Cost 40 STR 30 26 DEX 48 30 CON 40 15 BODY 10 15 INT 5 15 EGO 10 25 PRE 15 10 COM 0 21 PD 13 21 ED 15 6 SPD 24 14 REC 0 60 END 0 50 STUN 0 6" RUN02" SWIM08" LEAP0Characteristics Cost: 210Cost Power END 30 A Living star: Life Support (Eating Character does not eat; Longevity Immortal; Safe in High Pressure; Safe in High Radiation; Safe in Intense Cold; Safe in Intense Heat; Safe in Low Pressure/Vacuum; Self-Contained Breathing; Sleeping Character does not sleep) 10 Energized body: Damage Resistance (10 PD/10 ED) 5 Detached Humanity: Mental Defense (8 points total) 8 Eyes like the sun: Sight Group Flash Defense (8 points) 10 Vision Powers: Multipower, 10-point reserve 1u 1) Keen Sight: +2 PER with Sight Group (4 Active Points) 1u 2) Starsight: Nightvision (5 Active Points) 1u 3) Megascale Sight: Normal Sight, Megascale (1"=1km) (6 Active Points) 1u 4) Nuclear Vision: N-Ray Perception (Sight Group) (10 Active Points); Costs Endurance (-1/2) 1 70 Plasma Powers: Multipower, 70-point reserve 7u 1) Plasma Blast: Energy Blast 14d6 (70 Active Points) 7 7u 2) Plasma Bomb: Energy Blast 9d6, Explosion (+1/2) (67 Active Points) 7 7u 3) Nova: Sight, Hearing and Radio Groups Flash 8d6, Explosion (+1/2) (67 Active Points) 7 7u 4) Fusion Bolts: Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6+1, Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), Armor Piercing (+1/2) (70 Active Points) 7 30 Flight Powers: Multipower, 30-point reserve 3u 1) Tactical Flight: Flight 15" (30 Active Points) 3 3u 2) Escape Velocity: Flight 10", Megascale (1" = 1 km; +1/4), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4) (30 Active Points) 1 2u 3) Underwater Flight: Flight 10", Usable Underwater (+1/4) (25 Active Points) 2 Powers Cost: 203Cost Skill 3 Breakfall 14- 3 Computer Programming 12- 3 Oratory 14- 3 PS: Corporate Executive 14- 3 SS: Nuclear Physics 12- 3 Tactics 12- 3 Teamwork 14- 24 +3 with All Combat Skills Cost: 45Cost Perk 5 Money: Well Off 5 Vehicles & Bases Perks Cost: 10Val Disadvantages 15 Distinctive Features: Gives off small amounts of mutagenic radiation Not Concealable, Extreme Reaction, Detectable Only By Unusual Senses 15 Distinctive Features: Glowing plasma charged body Not Concealable, Noticed and Recognizable, Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses 15 Distinctive Features: Otherworldly voice Not Concealable, Noticed and Recognizable, Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses 20 Hunted: Viper 8- (Occasionally), As Powerful, NCI, PC has a Public ID or is otherwise very easy to find, Harshly Punish 15 Hunted: Ray of Project Sunburst 8- (Occasionally), As Powerful, PC has a Public ID or is otherwise very easy to find, Harshly Punish 10 Psychological Limitation: Protects the weak and innocent Common, Moderate 10 Psychological Limitation: Reluctant to kill (Uncommon, Strong) 25 Psychological Limitation: Sees self as beyond mortal Very Common, Total 15 Social Limitation: Public ID "Quasar" Leader of Millennium Force Frequently (11-), Major 10 Susceptibility: In strong magnetic field, 1d6 damage per Turn Uncommon Disadvantage Points: 150Base Points: 200Experience Required: 118Total Experience Available: 121Experience Unspent: 3Total Character Cost: 468 Height: 1.93 m Hair: None Weight: 98.00 kg Eyes: Bright white Appearance: Quasar looks like a well muscled male with no body hair. His body is no longer made of solid flesh and bone, but is instead composed of purplish-blue plasma. The plasma is held together in the form of a human being by Quasar’s willpower (although he is not aware of this). His body constantly glows emitting visible light and mutagenic radiation. A nimbus of plasma continuously roils at the edge of his form. Occasionally motes of plasma detach from this nimbus and die out in a few seconds. Quasar’s eyes have no visible iris or pupil, but they glow with a slightly paler and brighter light than the rest of him. All normal features of a human male are visible through the plasma except hair and genitals.Personality: As a man Quasar was intelligent and driven to achieve. As a superhero he can be cold and calculating, but truly cares for those he protects. As Quasar grows in power he moves ever further mentally from his humanity, seeing himself as more (or greater) than average humans. Eventually he will become quite dispassionate, but still highly driven to overcome the villainy he sees around him. Quasar has a personal rivalry with Defender and the Champions. Since Quasar was the leader of the New Champions before they were ousted for the current group of Champions, he rarely gives the new team their due and often publicly derides them pleading with them to get out of the dangerous business of superheroes before "one of them gets seriously hurt or even killed." Quote:"Stand aside Defender! The real superheroes are here."Background: Powers/Tactics: Quasar’s primary power is the ability to cast plasma bolts from his hands. Quasar almost always flies during combat. He is a team player, but is not above sacrificing a teammate to gain tactical advantage, or to deliver an attack that would be particularly devastating to an enemy.Campaign Use: Quasar is the leader of Millennium Force based in Millennium City. He has vast amounts of money (currently in frozen assets) through Starling Enterprises, his biochemical company. Unlike many superheroes he has a publicist, and makes many public appearances.Enjoy!QuasarEarth's Mightiest Hero

Of course! Although it's not too hard to out do the Chumpions. Frankly I think Defender and company should get out of the business of crime fighting before one of them gets killed. Millennium Force is more than capable of fighting the crime in Millennium City. Quasar Earth's Mightiest Hero Leader of Millennium Force

You sound like you may have missed my point. I'm not talking about a book of pictures, or that they don't release the books like they normally do. What I am suggesting is making the JPEG files of the artwork available free, or as a purchasable download from this site for those of us who want to use the artwork for our games in one way or another. I might not even use it for Hero games, but D&D. Quasar The Earth's Mightiest Hero

Hey Storn, Very nice images. Has there been any thought put into selling electronic collections of all the images from a given product in the Online Store, or even for free in galleries like WotC does? I'd certainly purchase (or download) them for use as hand outs, or to help illustrate an encounter, or to shrink down and turn into stand-up counters. Just a thought. Quasar Earth's Mightiest Hero

We did what? While returning from battle on another planet, the Millenium Force with their alien techno-mage allies fly through a time-space distortion. The overconfident techno-mages tell our heroes that everything is fine and they continue on to earth where the heroes are deposited with no mishap. After a good night's sleep in their Millenium City headquarters, the team begins to go about their normal routines. At first, only subtle things seem wrong. Once soft lines in the building design seem sharp and harsh. The demeanor of the team’s government liaison Ms. Pink is rougher and she's developed a slightly cruel edge to her humor. While watching a news report one of the team members is stunned to hear "Gyro" Jim Dugan describing a scene where the super-hero Mechanon defeated yet another mechanical menace to Millennium City! What?!? The heroes go out into the city to find out what is going on, but before they know it they are attacked by their old enemies R.I.O.T. who inexplicably vow to bring the Millennium Force to justice so "the good and decent folk of Millennium City can rest easy at night." Barely defeating their old arch-rivals the Millennium Force retreat to their base to assess the situation. There they are approached by a mystic known as Dr. Phantasm. Phantasm tells them, after a brief mystic/psychic examination, that they are in an alternate reality from what they know. Here Millennium Force is a super-villain team guilty of almost every crime imaginable, as are the Champions (of Evil). Mechanon is a hero as is Dr. D. "Dr. Destroyer, a hero?!? No, not Dr. Destroyer...Dr. Destiny perhaps the greatest force of good the world has ever known!" Phantasm goes on to tell the team that he might possibly be able to return them to their own reality/dimension (and in the process get back the Millennium Force of this reality) with the right tools. However, they will need to obtain them for him. The real fun comes in when the team must do things that will look to the heroes of this dimension very much like thievery, and murder to obtain the items needed. Quasar Leader of Millennium Force