Doc Democracy

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

I think this is an important point: All Skill rolls (or damage rolls for that matter) tell you is whether you made the roll and by how much. A 17- Skilled-character and a 13- might both make their rolls most of the time. If the 13- rolls a 9 he's made it by 4 and "beats" the 17- guy's roll of 14. That doesn't mean he'sd better; simply that he did it better that one time.

This is where I disconnect with skill systems in most systems.

Is a roll of 14 from 17- guy worse than a 9 from 13- guy?

I'm not sure of the answer. Obviously it is much easier to roll 14 than to roll 9 but does the 9 actually indicate a deep flash of insight from 13- guy that outshines the easy grasp of the concept that 17- guy gets by rolling 14?

I think in comparing scores I would be more inclined to give better results to the highest successful roll. Thus 17- guy's 14 is exceptional in that 13- guy could not possibly understand anything that a roll of 14 indicates therefore it must be deeper than 13- guy's knowledge.

That doesn't feel right to me either but I thought I should air it as another option.

Doc

Re: Metamorphosis

I think SS should have been divorced from the Senses Nomenclature and it's own terms brought in - sure it's another set of words to add to the game, but the effect is the same:

 

Shapeshift:

Shape

Appearance

Scent/Taste

Mental Signature

Radio/Power Signature

Sound/Voice

 

Good practical advice - the kind of thing that keeps me coming back to the boards...rep on its way - when I can obviously.

Re: Metamorphosis

Compare that to' date=' say, invisiblity, another 'perfect sense fooling power'. Even if there are one or two opponents who can detect you they can not usefully communicate that to the others - OK it scuppers your attempt to sneak past, but you retain all your combat bonuses against those who can not 'see' you. Moreover, although invisibility is theoretically more expensive, you need to buy far less to make it usefu: most people only target with sight so all you need to have a useful power is INVIS: SIGHT GROUP, so the actual cost is not that high at all, even if you do take the 'no fringe' adder.[/quote']

 

Well put - even if you did troll this thread - 168 posts already! Rep will probably get to you some time after the New Year....

Re: Ogre, Hand-to-Hand, Bricks Tricks & Rage

This is a good question.

I think that, as GM, I would be telling my player that as long as he was using a melee weapon then the HtH levels would count. So I would probably say that the shockwave would not count - he is sending out a force not physically connected to him (acting more like an EB) but the wrap up is just like using a weapon.

Berserk-wise then simple stuff gets allowed. Shockwave is a good one if there are lots of people - almost like a toddler throwing a tantrum. I wouldn't allow the wrap up when berserk - too much thought applied there.

And I wouldn't give a break on the multipower - very much the disad disadvantaging the character.

Doc

Re: Radical Approach To Skills

INT seems more, to me, like the ability to immediately understand abstracts, make connections, draw conclusions, etc---

 

it's a measure of how --

crud, I wish there were words within my vocabulary for what I'm trying to say.

I believe the term you are looking for is 'the intuitive leap'.

Getting to the solution without having to go through all of the intermediate logical steps.

Doc

Re: Radical Approach To Skills

Are you going to change PRE-based skills around in a similar fashion too? What about Dex-based skills? [/Quote]

 

Well, to be fair, RDU Neil was suggesting that INT puts a limit on the number of skills that a character might know at any one time. That would affect all char-based skills equally.

 

If you have read most of his posts you'd see that his style allows players to use their skills flexibly and broadly thus playing an action adventure style where skills might be used wherever the stretch of the mind might take them.

 

It might work for some games' date=' but I don't think making it harder to get high-value skills is really going to help anything for most games. Isn't it in genre for most action heroes and superheroes to be highly competent sorts of people? Having a broad skill base at a good skill level is part and parcel of that. [/Quote']

 

I understand why you think it would make it harder to get high value skills (but just because you remove a characteristic base doesn't mean you then start a skill at 9 or 10 or even 11). You could also allow a relevant stat to be a supplementary as appropriate - it would make the skills more flexible that way.

 

Ok' date=' for a house rule for your own game, fine. I don't think it works well in general; to me this is a case of putting 'realism' before game balance and dynamics, while I think the latter is more important. [/quote']

 

I'm not sure that this is right. I think it would depend on the game - and I think RDU Neil would agree that particular genres might be better suited to such arrangements than others.

 

Personally I think that Sean's request for far more discussion on how to use skills in the rulebook is right. There are so many ways to use and decisions to make by the GM on these and yet they get almost no consideration at all. Obviously the Ultimate Skill book should remedy the lack but the core rulebook needs to have a bit more consideration of this part of the rules.

 

 

Doc

Re: Metamorphosis

I just wanted to say that I think the problem with the current way of doing it is that it is a can of worms. Keep the goat away from it

You are such a troll Waters! You asked coz you knew it would cause a stushie (Scottish slang - ponounced stooshie - means an argument or upset).

Anyway. I think you're take on it hits what you need and it is partly the whole Hero thinking thing.

Take Beast Boy. As you say - his shape shift is special effects for a series of other powers. he wants to fight strong then he boosts his STR and the SFX could be that he looks like a large green elephant. If he wants to grab someone tightly then he uses entangle (1 use, no range, recoverable) and the SFX could be changing into a large green python.

The various shapes are sfx and if you were to draw the combat you would see him switch forms as he used the various powers. Flight gives you a bird, flight plus sonar gives you a bat, shrinking gives you a mouse, shrinking plus

flight gives you a humming bird or a bee.

I might give Beast Boy a VPP and match the active powers with an appropriate animal form. He doesn't suffer penalties or gain advantages that he isn't using. I would give beast boy a limitation of -1/4 or so because his animals were green and allow other people to have the form of their choice.

I like this better than multiform as it is a bit more freeform and still true to Hero principles. It also allows rapid changes of abilities and the range of animals is limited only by the players (and GMs) imaginations.

Doc

Re: Handling interpersonal skills

To Black Rose's point above and others...

 

Specialties are great... but defining these specialties lies in the realm of Game Rules... as opposed to Mechanics.

Personally I see them as more detailed guidance to teh GM as to where the player believes his characters strengths are. It means the player would like lesser penalties in certain areas while accepting this would mean greater penalties in others.

I think that it would be of more use in genres where skills are more important or 'realistic'.

I would also provide bonuses in skill versus skill contests where the specialities differed.

As I say - eventually it is all guidance to the GM. Hopefully helpful rather than a hindrance.

Doc

Re: How do i Represent a Taunting skill?

Im currently building the Beast for my DC/Marvel thread and i want to include some kind of Taunting skill ala Mutants and Masterminds to represent McCoy's ability to wisecrack and unsettle opponents to gain him an advantage in combat.

It depends on what kind of advantage you want in combat. If it is simply making you more effective then you could get levels in DCV that require a skill roll (probably PRE vs PRE, or you could allow him to buy a taunting skill that he could use in its place).

If you want other effects then you may be looking at a small multipower - all of which would have the same limitation as above - I was thinking of a teleport - usable as an attack - needs to move through intervening space - RSR. That would be manipulating where someone is on the battlefield and making them walk under the falling piano or over the trapdoor or simply into a co-ordinated haymaker with the team brick....

Doc

Re: Radical Approach To Skills

Nice... rep. uh... maybe not... fraggin' rep rules

Well, I tired to rep you for the original idea - rep rules caught me too - have added you to my list....Sean is bound to end up with more entries on the list as well.

Re: Radical Approach To Skills

I (personally) think that (INT) number of skills is too generous and (INT/3) is too ungenerous so I'd plump for (INT/2).

Yeah but then you screw up the costing system is there for INT/3.

If you want more skills it is probably more necessary at the low end of the scale. With INT/3 you get 3,6 and 10 skills for INTs of 10,20 and 30. With INT/2 you get 5,10 and 15 skills.

How about you give 3+INT/3 skills if you want to be generous? That keeps the cost structure in place...

Doc

Re: Handling interpersonal skills

Oh I like this.

 

Consider skill levels to be specialisations. Fantastic.

 

Also work really well for (say) science skills, and would allow you to be good at a range of skills without it costing the earth.

I think possibly more useful for KS stuff than more directly applicable skills - though being able to use the numbers to 'allow' a roll is useful for everything.

I tend towards adding specialisations coz I like my players to have LOTS of stuff on their character sheets - the more stuff they have the more information I can dish out directly.

Doc

Re: Two Annoying Power Builds

I'm surprised no one has suggested EDM yet. Only a matter of time...

 

One point: I'm not keen on an 'Untrackable' power: I'd want some way around it

You've got the Hero absolute-phobia don't you? I suffer from it myself.

I'd probably go with the levels option - though I'd also probably ignore the fact that the system doesn't have negative levels that would affect anyone trying to read tracks where the dust was sprinkled...

Re: Handling interpersonal skills

I like that idea' date=' too, but I'm not sure how you'd model it.[/quote']

 

I had the thought that skills should be annotated to indicate the number fo levels bought with the skill, eg, Persuasion [4] 17-

 

I would use the [#] for two purposes. The first would be to indicate depth of knowledge and for some purposes the ability to even have a roll of the dice.

 

In Treb's Combat Piloting example it would mean that just buying the basic skill would give the ability to do basic stuff really well - like flying under bridges - it is just flying but needs good physical abilities to pull it off. For flying the plane while one wing was falling off and needing to conserve fuel the basic skill would be valueless - you'd need [2] or [3] depending on how much knowledge was required.

 

The second would be to indicate breadth. For each level you take you could choose a different facet of the skill, like the persuasion example above.

 

Persuasion [fast-talk] 14-

 

This is quite like the Decipher system Steve Long was involved in. It would indicate where your strengths in a particular skill lay. The GM could then decide on whether you should be able to contemplate trying or whether it was simply necessary to impose a large penalty to the roll.

 

For each skill level purchased with the skill I would allow the player to improve either the breadth or the depth of the skill.

 

Persuasion [fast talk 2, Intimidate, Cajole 3] 18-

 

 

Doc

Re: Handling interpersonal skills

bevvy

noun {C} UK SLANG

an alcoholic drink

 

heh... no kidding. Had to get out my English Dictionary for that one. Stupid internet ... now I gotta learn slang in all the other languages too!

Yeah, that English is a ***** the way it changes from country to country, county to county...

Re: Handling interpersonal skills

Actually... Phil spelled it correctly the first time. My question was actually of two parts... one: to point out it was mispelled by Doc...(subtleties like this are so NOT effective online) and two: to get the answer about how you define "bevy" and you did that for me. thank yew...

Ha! Both Phil and I spelled it correctly! I was being even more subtle and playing on the word - that doesn't work trans-Atlanticly!

Re: Handling interpersonal skills

Just how much is a bevvy?

A bevy is at least four, fewer than that are simply a handful!

A bevvy (in Scots parlance) is enough alcohol to get drunk - so a variable quantity.

Doc

Re: Handling interpersonal skills

Hey! Can everyone quit whining about this game and get back to the incescent flattery?

 

Doc Democracy, I'm going to need a silk robe and bevy of maidens feeding me peeled grapes next time we game. OK?

Find your own bevvy, your own maidens as well. After all, you won the stag night game...

Re: Handling interpersonal skills

"... And that's when he was strung up your honor. No sir' date=' I don't remember who brought the rope..."[/quote']

 

 

robe/rope who could say what he he actually meant!

Re: Handling interpersonal skills

I got him' date=' the same reason - but he should get more![/quote']

 

 

Don't say that, he'll be unbearable. It's probably already too late....

 

 

Doc

Re: Help with a concept

The end cost is an interesting aspect of the field.

I think I'm convinced by the argument for armour, costs END. I think I'd have a custom costs END limitation though - something like 1 END per 2 DC of largest attack that phase.

That would mean that if was hit by 12D6, 14D6 and 10D6 attacks in a phase then the armour would cost 7 END that phase. This is a different way of cost END for a power but possibly works for this character. If this was too high an END cost then you could go for 1 END per 3DC or even 4DC. You would have to come up with a value for each though.

If you were concerned about the NND then it would be easy to add a +3PD/ED forcefield 0END triggered by attacks hitting armour. The glow could come from the forcefield and the majority of the defences from the armour and you'd be NND secure (though this is a metagaming reason!).

Doc

Re: Handling interpersonal skills

So' date=' when Mother Teresa's player throws everyone out of the house at that point, who's out of line?[/quote']

 

The GM may be out of line by putting the player into a situation that goes against that characters firmly held beliefs and then making it happen. While I think he may also be out of line in the number crunching as well he is not of line in enforcing the game rules that all the players agree to by entering the game.

 

I think that when we enter a game that one of the most fundamental requirements is to ensure that we are all aware of the rules that we are agreeing to play by.

 

If, as a GM, I allow a player to state something that he would never under any circumstances do, then I would feel remiss in enforcing any action under which that circumstance arose. (of course, I think that the Mother Theresa storyline could be fantastic but only with player consent)

 

I have run games where the game was fundamentally wrong for the players playing in it and I abandoned it with some alacrity - it was fun for neither me nor the players concerned - at every point we were clashing on fundamental priniciples. In your example I would say that there was no game wrongness but definite gameplay wrongness.

 

As a player, especially in Hero, I have a responsibility to ensure that the characteristics, skills and powers that I buy for my character back up and reflect the personality that I want for that character. I cannot simply tell the GM that I will never kill someone and trust to a paltry EGO/PRE/INT score.

 

 

Doc

Re: Handling interpersonal skills

But I don't think the tyrrany of the dice should be enough to force a player character to do something which is counter to the character concept' date=' just like the player can't willingly do something outside the character concept.[/quote']

 

But everyone is happy to allow the tyranny of the dice dictate combat. I think there is often too much of ourselves invested in the character and while our wargame-y side allows us to accept combat setbacks that does not extend to social contests.

 

I like Heroquest as each and every ability can be used as the basis for a contest.

 

 

Doc

Re: Handling interpersonal skills

I think that Sean's premise "the logic is that players decide the character's actions, not dice rolls" goes against the very core of roleplaying. This is not the player in the game but a role that they are supposed to be playing. In Hero it should be a role they have very carefully defined and so it shouldn't be too onerous being made to comply with dice rolls dictated by that role.

Pendragon was the game I had the biggest arguments on this topic. All the personality traits dictated whether the character would follow a particular path or not. One of my friends thought that he should be defining the characters actions - I thought that the player defines the character and the character defines the game actions.

Doc

Re: Dodging perceived threats

Oh you and your 'reality' hang ups

You started it with your PER roll justifications...