Doc Democracy

Re: Dodging perceived threats

I'd probably beg a PER roll for a number of indirect attacks: especially if they had (for instance) a sound component to their visibility' date=' but IPE it definitely would not help with.[/quote']

 

The player that I made take a tactics roll for this, his reason sfx were a directed warp field that made it difficult for people to target him, tried that on me (after failing the tactics roll).

 

That would work if the attack moved slower than the speed of sound and you'd hear and react before it hit you...

 

 

Doc

Re: Draining FF too expensive?

Because you can use Forcefield with a power stunt to stop coke sloshing all over your face when you're drinking out of a can on a bumpy country road? I know Mrs Phil could use that...

I think Mrs Phil might say that better drving skill would do the same job...

Re: God of the Machines

You might want to look at the Mostal religion designed for dwarves in Glorantha.

They believe in a World Machine where chaos and free-will have caused parts of the machine to fail and allowed entropy to creep into the world.

The dwarves are isolationist and those dwarves that leave the dwarf strongholds are deemed mad and subject to entropy but those that stay within their pre-ordained tasks in the repair of the machine live forever.

This would be a decent kind of religion for machine intelligences - their form of anthropising the universe. It also allows you to introduce strange and inexplicable actions by those intelligences on the basis that this is what has been 'revealed' to them as necessary in fixing the world machine.

There are lots of potential splits in doctrine as to where organic life fits into the grand design.

Doc

Re: Dodging perceived threats

I'm going to assume an Aware Of Attack means coming from a combatant on the field that the character is at least aware of the presense of even if not actively engaged with them. Unaware Of Attack means coming from the Invisible Sniper hidden in the niche that no one saw.

I would add to that an attack that is indirect or has IPE...

Doc

Re: Look out for the wall!

Erm, because without both (or time) you have an incomplete equation. Or you stick with the current system, which allows an average superstrong PC to easily propel someone at speeds of 24m/s, just over 500mph.

 

I think it'd be nice to extend KB to multiple segments, and it wouldnt *have* to be hugely complicated. It could be something as simple (non-worked out and very off-the-cuff) calculate KB as normal, speed of dice/3, recorded on the charactersheet for easy reference (minimum 4" per segment) , time is KB/speed.

If you know the velocity then everything else is simply newtonian mechanics. You _could_ limit the movement per segment and that might mean that the PC flying through the air manages to get off a last despairing EB before they crash into the vault door...

I'm concerned by the speed reference though. If a STR 60 brick punches someone and gets 14" knockback then, in the current system that takes place over one segment - 28m/s? Don't think so. The problem is that at the end of the segment there is no velocity remaining - it all dissipates over the segment.

Under your system you would calculate velocity rather than distance - the victim then travels at a velocity away from the attack and begins to accelerate towards the ground due to gravity. The distance is going to depend on how far he travels before he hits the ground and then how quickly the friction of hitting the ground brings him to a complete stop. There is a lot of physics going on there that I don't want to think about.

Obviously this begins to mean that the angle of attack and angle of KB relative to the ground becomes important (that changes how quickly the victim hits the ground and increases the distance travelled horizontally while tracing his parabola). More calculations...

If you calculate speed (Dice/3) then I think you have to say that the horizontal speed will not change between leaving his feet to hitting either the ground or a solid object. The speed will then dissipate. You might want to say that a standing target will hit the ground in one segment and for every 2" height the time increases by one segment.

So when I'm bumping the fridge, I'm using my 2d6 HA not my STR 10? That's just silly. I do hope the fridge has DEF 4+, or one time in 36 I'm going to be buying a new one

Are you saying that I'm wrong? You have bumped the fridge along using your momentum rather than straight physical strength.

Doc

Re: Look out for the wall!

2) Rework knockback. Instead of calculating distance, calculate distance and velocity. After all, the current rules have the idiotic situation where theoretically a character can knockback an object they couldnt throw. Some reworking of this type would also allow for some fabulous multi-action knockbacks - such as when characters are shown to be hurled back for more than 1 panel of a comic book. Unfortunately, i dont have the time to propose a recalculation right now! Anyone else?

 

Phil the Buck-passer

Why would you want to calculate distance AND velocity? Do either one or the other.

Personally I like the game simplicity of calculating distance and then converting what's left of that distance into dice of damage when you hit something. It's quick and simple.

I'm sure you have, in the past, bumped your fridge (or some other piece of furniture) along the floor but wouldn't be able to throw it...so perhaps the situation isn't so idiotic.

If you were going to calculate velocity then you'd have to be doing Newtonian style calculations to work out how fast the person was moving 4" or 8" later when they smacked into the wall.

Down with velocity!!

Doc

Re: Re-vitalising the speed chart

Obviously! I was thinking still in the PS12 comes right after 12 mode! 13 cards work well then. One deck gives you four complete turns and a card shoe would give you about sixteen turns - more than in most games I play in one night...

Doc

Re: Re-vitalising the speed chart

Thanks MarkDoc

I've seen these alternatives over time. I have toyed with the idea of getting a card holder, like in the casinos, and using the cards for phases - obviously all of the phases will come up at one point or another over time - just not in any predictable fashion (unless you are a card counting genius).

I was never sure what to do about the kings - take em out or use them for random events...

Doc

Re: Dodging perceived threats

That makes a lot of sense.

I'm going to take that home and frame it somewhere my wife can see it....

Re: Dodging perceived threats

I was building a charcter today with increased DCV against threats he perceives. I thought of RSR but that doesn't work well: it suggests that for PER activation, use an appropriate activation roll. And of course the sparkier the sense you use the more of a penalty it attracts...and RSR rols don't generally take modifies, and...

 

Mind you an activation roll doesn't work well either, as it doesn't differentiate between a big obvious attack and a subtle type attack.

 

I don't want to have to simply say the GM can decide on a case by case basis as the GM generally has enough to do without players foisting additional work on them: can anyone think of a way around this?

 

The best I can manage is 'requires a PER roll: (-1/2)'. Bit arbitrary.

 

The character hs 18 INT and no PER levels at present, but is going to have some sort of an 'air sensing' power - he's a flier.

I always have a problem basing this on a PER roll. My favourite thing in these circumstances is to base it on tactics or danger sense. Either one of these would be appropriate to the situation and give you some credibility in 'knowing'

that a particular type of attack was in the making.

Doc

Re: Shared Powers by Heroes of Common Origin

Now, we're talking here about powers that can only be used if more than one PC links with others and any PC might be the point man while the others simply act as boosters to the power, yes?

One way I've done this before is using duplication where the PC's are essentially duplicates and there is a character sheet for the big combine.

This might still be a workable way - see how much the uber-PC would cost with duplication where it could get the characters as played and split the duplication cost among the various members.

You could then have a series of character sheets that represent the abilities of a combination of two characters, or three or four or them all together (I'd handwave the costs of having this variety - they've paid for the duplication -though I suppose you could buy the duplication with variable special effects).

The more work you wanted to do the more specific you could be about the effects of various Members combining with others. Frex, the fireguy combines with the brick and they get bonus powers with a heat motif, or the magnetic guy combines with the Fireguy and you get a plasma motif.

Doc

Re: Re-vitalising the speed chart

I always though that they way you suggested about 'Clicks' is how 'It' should be done. Only no actual combat rounds' date=' just one continous sequence of actions.[/quote']

 

This is an interesting approach. You would have to keep a track of total time and where everyone was on that timetrack.

 

It would mean that SPD 3 characters would act every four seconds but it does make it more difficult for those SPDs that don't have good relationships with 12 second turns....

 

Perhaps a different approach missing out some SPDs

 

SPD 12 acts every segment

SPD 10 acts five segments in every six

SPD 9 acts 3 segments in every four

SPD 8 acts 2 segments in every three

SPD 6 acts every other segment

SPD 4 acts every third segment

SPD 3 acts every fourth segment

SPD 2 acts every sixth segment

SPD 1 acts every twelvth segment

 

 

Have to do more thinking.

 

 

Doc

Re: Re-vitalising the speed chart

SPD 2 would then go on 1 and 7, SPD 4 on 1,4,7 and 10 (even as I type it the numbers feel wrong but the prinicple feels right). This would give the same pattern as I used in my two actions plus bonuses.

Ooh! Just had a thought. The same thing might be effected and the current numbers retained by indicating that "an action must be taken by segment..." rather than "an action may be taken as of segment..."

This will be how I run things until I make it better! :-)

I think this might take away some of the problems people have with the SPD chart. A SPD 4 character has phases on 3, 6, 9 and 12. That means that when the turn starts on segment 1 a SPD 4 character must take an action by segment 3, by segment 6 etc or else they would not get all four actions in a turn.

It can be amazing how a different emphasis can make a huge difference in approach.

Doc

I'm a fan of the speed chart. I think it is something that makes the system stand out from a lot of the others - a method of regulating actions and delivering initiative all rolled up into one package.

What surprises me is that so many people dislike it and the answer is more often than not to accept it grudginly or replace it completely. Has no-one ever thought of using it differently?

My thoughts have drifted this way because I am in the process of developing a Glorantha HERO game. RQII uses a 12 click turn and actions take place within that turn based on how long they take to occur. For example, if it takes 2 clicks to fire an arrow then the archer fires an arrow on 2 (+5 for generic readying time, +2 for another arrow) then 9 and there is not enough clicks left for a third arrow. If it only took 1 click then the archer would fire on 1 and 7.

Movement was click based. A human had a move of 8 (each move represented 3m) and each 3m moved added 1 to the time the arrow fired. So in the example of the 2 click archer if he moved 6m inbetween firing the second arrow then the arrow would have flown on 2 and 11.

Now this doesn't fit exactly into the Hero way but its made me think that perhaps I could present the spd chart differently.

In most fantasy games SDPs are going to be 2,3 and 4. Given the way that most players react to the SPD chart that means that actions will be taken on segments 3,4,5,6,8,9 and 12.

In a few games I've run I told players that a round was split into two parts in which each person would get one action (SPD 2), some characters would get a bonus action in the second part of the round (SPD 3) and some characters would get bonus actions in both parts (SPD 4).

I realise that I've changed the chart a bit here but the players took to it better than when they knew I was using the SPD chart. It also felt fairer.

For example, Captain Quick of the City Guard (SPD 4) is fighting Slow Joe (SPD 2). Using the chart the captain attacks on 3 and 6 before Joe gets to retaliate and then again on 9 and 12 before Joe retaliates. In my rough example then the captain would attack then Joe then the captain twice and then Joe before a final attack by the captain.

I was wondering if it was worth reversing the actions so that everyone went on 1 rather than 12 and combats could, more intuitively begin on segment 1 rather than segment 12.

SPD 2 would then go on 1 and 7, SPD 4 on 1,4,7 and 10 (even as I type it the numbers feel wrong but the prinicple feels right). This would give the same pattern as I used in my two actions plus bonuses.

In the Glorantha HERO I was thinking of making everyone a default SPD 1 and then building weapons that would add SPD. So a bow, for example, might add2 SPD while a broadsword added 1 and a great axe added nothing. Thus everyone would attack on 1, the archer would fire his second arrow on 5, the broadsword would swing again on 7 and the archer would fire his third on 9.

A final point is that when using the spd chart I almost always see players go immediately that the first segment of their phase comes up. I think I need to emphasise that for a SPD 4 character, the advent of segment 3 doesn't mean he has to act then, it simply means he is now able to act and may do so in that segment or either of the following two segments before he loses that action.

Long post - not sure if I was coherent but I am looking for people that have used or have considered using the SPD chart in a different way from that presented in the book rather than simply deciding to ditch it.

Doc

Re: Dumb question

Yeah' date=' well, for all the intelligent and thought-provoking posts on here, I feel rather embarrassed to be posting something like, "Hey, someone explain the rules to me, please . . .?" [/quote']

 

Hell, this is the place to ask about the rules! Especially if you're stuck somewhere without you're book - just make sure you listen to someone like Archemoo that knows what he's hes talking about rather then me...

 

 

Doc

Re: Dumb question

It is actually quite simple if you can draw it out in front of you.

The centre hex of the explosion gets the full 7D6.

Each hex surrounding the centre gets one less DC (6.5D6)

Each hex surrounding those hexes gets one less die (6D6+1)

etc etc

So you get a series of concentric circles each getting less damage. Someone in the fourth circle would get 6D6 damage, someone in the 5th would get 5.5D6.

In your case the person is 4" from the centre hex (or the fifth circle) and so would take 5.5D6 damage.

Doc

[edit - too slow in typing obviously! I think I disagreed about the distance - I can see two interpretations and mine is probably wrong]

Re: waiting for a good roll

If the Act Roll fails' date=' she believes it would have missed and she cancells the attack. If the Act Roll succeeds she believes it would have hit and make the roll. [/quote']

 

My reading of the original question was not about whether the attack hit or not but whether it was going to generate enough damage. I really don't see that there is the huge problem most people seem to be seeing.

 

 

Doc

Re: waiting for a good roll

Sounds like pure sfx: as you suffer the loss of the action and END anyway: you make the attack but the sfx is that you don't actually do anything if it misses. I'd also buy a couple of DCV CSLs limited to offset the DCV penalty of any manourvre that doesn't go off (if relevant).

 

You may also need a triggered teleport to put you where you started if you are doing a Fmove attack.

 

Or you could just buy 10 levels with OCV and agree to ignore 18s....

 

...otherwise, as Ghost-Angel says, it is somewhat metagamish.

Dagnabbit Sean - why do you always ruin the answers I was going to type. Talk about precognition!

I think that Sean has nailed the necessary. All those people saying that precognition is necessary - you are wrong on two counts in my opinion. The power precognition as written in the book is not necessary, the SFX of precognition would only be necessary if the ability to hit was being defined. This is simply getting an idea of whether enough damage potential is being generated before firing the shot.

If the character wants to abort the attack (ie not actually fire the shot) before he rolls the to hit dice but is willing to accept the manouevre modifiers for getting into a position to shoot then what's the big deal. There is no player benefit from that at all, the action is still burnt, even the END is spent.

The way I see it working is the player rolls the damage dice - sees how much damage the attack will generate and then decides whether to roll the to hit dice. Slightly different in how it normally works but, as Sean pointed out, unless there is a desire to nullify manouevre benefits and disads the only power that is required is Energy Blast.

All IMO obviously.

Doc

Re: Shrinking as an attack power?

I once used Shrinking (invisible power effects) to model a desolid character that could hit you because his fists weer still solid. The reduced DCV modelled the fact that you had to hit his hands to actually do him any damage...

Doc

Re: Determining Gravitic Pull

Actual shape is extremely important.

Hmmm.

Perhaps I was hasty!

The r in the equation would measure from the 'centre' of one mass to the 'centre' of the other.

As Force will increase inversely with the square of that distance then you get the Force quadrupling as the distance of r halves (correct?).

It wouldn't matter whether the shape of the substance was a sphere or a square or humanoid. Just the distance from the 'centre' of the mass.

Composition therefore matters while shape does not - the more dense the material is then the smaller it is with regard to similar masses and thus the smaller the distance of r and thus the much greater increase in F.

I think that puts us on the same page a la neutronium Keith, yes?

Doc

Re: Determining Gravitic Pull

OK, Science Wizards, let's talk about gravity!

 

As you know, I'm working on The Ultimate Metamorph, which covers (among many other things) Density Increase and Growth. For purposes of dealing with ultra-heavy characters (including macroscopic characters), it would be nice to include some short, simple information/rules on the sort of gravitic effects a truly heavy/large character could exert.

 

Before I start delving into all this astrophysical stuff myself, I figured I'd find out if any of you out there have already considered the issue. For example:

 

--At what amount of weight would a character begin exerting a noticeable (i.e., game effective) gravitic pull on other characters and objects? How would that go up as the character's weight/size increase?

 

--Does the character's shape or composition effect this?

 

 

If anyone has any thoughts or formulae they'd like to provide, feel free. Otherwise I'll just break out the ol' slide rule and gee up something myself.

Oooh gravity.

Well, the simple part I'll jump in and answer first. Gravity is a question of mass and thus shape and composition do not affect this.

Given sensitive enough equipment then any mass will have a noticeable effect on any other mass - the earth pulls you toward it and we pull the earth towards us - its reciprocal but the earth wins out on a massive scale!

We have no real handle on gravity and how it works (haven't discovered gravitons or anything like that yet) so all our stuff is based on measurements which are all distorted by the presence of other gravity inducing masses around the experiment.

The equation used to describe the attraction between two bodies of matter is

F = G(Mm/r^2)

Where F is the force of attraction [measured in Newtons (N)], the mass of one body is M and the other is m, the distance between them is r and the gravitational constant is G [6.67 x 10^-11 N(m^2/kg^2)].

That's the equation. I'm not sure what force we begin to sense with our skin but I'd suspect that in a gravity well it may have to be within orders of magnitude of the gravity well (tenth or a hundredth at least).

Doc

Re: Stop Power

Yeah, I agree. So you might as well use the king of all absolutes, desolidify.

 

Desolidification(Movement only).

 

Personally, I would hate to use desolidification in this way. Then again I really hate the desolidification altogether. Its a horribly written power that should be changed into a different mechanic (but thats another thread). However, in this case it might be your best bet.

I thought about desolidification but it was difficult to define what he was desolid against and then everything else he used would have to have an advantage to affect the solid world. If I was going to handwave that then I thought that I should simply handwave a talent/perk or whatever I was going to call it...

My first thought was that it was a form of clinging - though there was no solid surface on which to cling. I suppose that it could simply be an advantaged clinging and use the rules for that.

Doc

Re: Stop Power

The character can 'lock' themselves in any position' date=' sort of weaving themselves into the gravity web of the planet. [/quote']

 

Well Sean, to me it appears that you are looking for another absolute from the game with no absolutes!

 

I can see what you want and I think there is not any one answer for this - you would have to counter all of the various means that there are to move you - knockback, pushing, teleporting (?), etc

 

I'm not sure whether the benefit would be worth the points it would cost to do it. It might be a perk and you would have to consider the consequences. For example, if you had bought the perk for 10 points and someone did you 15" of knockback then I'd allow you to stay in place but to take the damage that resulted from that (15D6 I think!). If someone tried to throw you then the same. You could use the various powers to diminish the damage - some knockback resistance would decrease the amount of damage caused etc.

 

That's how I'd deal with it...

 

 

Doc

Re: Power Build: "Portal" power

Who said it had to be one power.

Well said Ghost-Angel.

The protals are essentially common SFX round which the player should base a whole series of powers. Clairsentience would be a good one as he peeks through a portal, missile deflection would be another as he ports the missile behind him (reflection would mean the portal switched the attack around).

All kinds of options without any need to describe the portal itself - just the game effects you want to be able to achieve with it.

Doc

Re: The Problem with Even Characteristic Costs

I repped him' date=' it put the issue into the appropriate context, I think.[/quote']

 

I'm sure that'll make up for my puny rep addition being delayed!