Doc Democracy

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

This is one of those arguments that seem on the outside to be rational but really aren't at all.

The main point revolves around whether morality is absolute or relative. In our reality it is relative. An evil action from one perspective may not be evil from another.

In this reality any such concept as evil race is racist.

In fantasy realities - where magic works and Gods break your windows if you dis them - morality is often absolute. Those born into a race that follows an evil God will be evil - if the children are raised among good god-fearing folks then that child will revert to type. It can do nothing else - though it may rail and agonise over it.

In this kind of reality the concept is not racist - it is a reflection of everyday knowledge.

Absolute morality as a concept makes stories easier - no worries about whether killing is correct or not - your target is evil and deserves to die.

In our games it is difficult to keep moral relativism out of it and, if we are in any way educated, situations are more interesting if you can introduce even mild shades of grey.

So. There is no yes/no answer to the title question. It depends!

Doc

Re: Dramatic Hooks?

In the original Riddle Of Steel game' date=' the designer had an ax to grind. He wanted to enforce gameplay that resembled a dramatic fantasy novel. The combat was ramped up to "Very Deadly" [i'](looks to me like the equivalent of all attacks doing killing damage, and no resistant defenses)[/i]. Entering a fight without help from one's Dramatic Hooks was tantamount to suicide.

Hmm. I think you could do lots using disadvantages as well. The X2 STUN and x2 BODY stuff could be quite important if they applied to attacks against you in fights where your Hooks did not apply....

Doc

Re: What the heck is BODY anyways?

In my games I always explained it as life force. How strongly your soul is attached to your physical body.

I also used it to make high BODY characters more difficult to keep down - so recovery intervals below zero were based on multiples of BODY rather than multiples of 10.

Doc

Re: Power duration

As an alternative - and the one that often causes groans - is transform.

What about adding one or two psych disads for slavishly loyal etc etc with the condition that if the transform isn't broken some other way it will disappear in two weeks (reasonably common condition there).

By putting psych disads there is some leeway for characters trying to resist their new psyche (with EGO rolls etc) and it should test the roleplaying muscles of any players so caught.

Just an alternative thought...

Doc

Re: When Heroes become Villians

Oddly enough this is a question I was going to ask the gaming community.

I set up a game and the (so called) "heroes" start to act like villians.

I've been running a club for kids for a few years now and their immediate instincts are to the darker side of actions. It's understandable - they are 12-15 year old boys and their thoughts run amok. I wince when watching their games trying to remember those long ago years when I was their age - wondering whether my friends were any less bloodthirsty!

Anyway - its been a long time but they have responded to in-game prompts. they know that I prefer a heroic style of game and they understand that heroic actions garner not only preferntial treatment but avoid the full weight of the law coming down upon them.

When they suggest doing something reprehensible I repeat the action to them in the form of a question and almost invariably they now change their actions. When they don't they know that the game world they play in will not tolerate their action and their characters will suffer - but sometimes they want that kind of session for a while.

Doc

Re: That is Entertainment ……

Yeah - there is a lot made of bards being rogues with a lute but I think that the true focus of the bard is his cultural role as newsbringer - tale rememberer - and lore master (not the magicla kind of lore but everything else).

I think bards are the people that are the ties that bind an ancient community. They are the ones that teach the histories of the nation and so are the ones that control the political feelings.

I can see why they would be valued and distrusted by rulers.

I think that the view of bards has been skewed by D&D despite their efforts to correct it. I love the idea of a bard but it is difficult to make it work in a D&D game unless the campaign is based around a bard and the other party members travelling with him adventuring as they go.

Re: A Modern League of Extroardinary Gentlemen

Harry Potter (don't care for the character but ya just can't ignore him)

Good call! I'd ignored our optically challenged magic user....

...but no Steve Austin?

EDIT: You gotta have a techno somewhere - even if it is macguyver!!

Re: Campaigns that you miss...

I miss the first PBeM that I ever did. It was called Omega Justice and had a huge cast. There were some fantastic characters in the line-up and everyone seemed to be on the ball. The game fell over when the GM decided he'd had enough (a hugely reasonable decision after running a few of my own!).

Deejay - who collated a huge number of Hero based write ups - played in the campaign and several of the characters are listed on his site (now hosted by Shelley).

http://www.mactyre.net/scm/deejay/champs/teams/omega_justice.html

Doc

Re: A Modern League of Extroardinary Gentlemen

And I'd add Buffy the Vampire Slayer to my group. Martial arts' date=' super strength, and mystical/occult knowledge (with Giles as an amicable Contact), she's an all around powerhouse.[/quote']

 

Oh yes - Buffy is definitely a modern phenomenon - and perhaps The Crow - never hurts to have someone who's already dead!

Re: A Modern League of Extroardinary Gentlemen

looking at some other threads, the idea of creating a league from people who actually existed at the time the league is set in

 

and the following ideas came up

Aleister Crowley

Teddy Roosevelt

Nicholai Tesla..

Samuel Clemmens

either Winston Churchill or Rudyard Kipling

TH Lawrence

 

if a modern league were put together... who would you put in it?

Hmmm. Part of the fun of the league was that the people in it were actually extraordinary.

I suppose you would have to give the above actual powers - Crowley would be able to use magic - Tesla would control electricity - possibly to the extent of electric touch though in a lower key game simply influencing its flow through circuits. I think Roosevelt/Clemens/Kipling/Lawrence kind of duplicate each other - boys own heroes perhaps but nothing that you could really tag on as extraordinary. I think one of them would be necessary but all four would be overblown.

So. Who else?? I think, in the vein of the originals you have to look at modern literature for your extraordinary characters. You could replace the Roosevelt etc with James Bond - an obvious modern literary character to do that. You would add Steve Austin (or if you want to be derivative Jake 2.0) and possibly Knight Rider or Airwolf though I think I'd prefer Macguyver in that role. I'm struggling to think of a few more without straying into sci-fi stuff...

Doc

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

And as someone who builds every world from the ground up from scratch no matter what system I play' date=' HERO is a better fit for me- I'd do the same amount of mechanical work in HERO or D20.[/quote']

 

The magic words I think! You have decided what you are going to do and what system best fits that for you. I would wager that most people don't build their worlds from scratch - or not in the detail you imply.

 

As such you make a rational decision that HERO better fits building the infrastructure of your world from the ground up.

 

If you can live with basic assumptions made in a D20 setting then it would be quicker and easier to adopt those wholesale.

 

 

Doc

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

I'd just rather spend less time customizing and changing and more time creating and playing.

It's funny that D20 people would say the same about HERO.

D20 is a fine game' date=' I just don't like being told that I can't buy a skill, or a skill costs twice as much when i've already got a meager supply of points to begin with.[/quote']

 

I think you're putting barriers in the way of appreciating the game. D20 people do the same with HERO, they find excuses not to like it and the whole skill thing seems to be a similar response.

 

When you play any game you have to approach it 'as is' rather than as you'd like it to be. Most games are enjoyable when taken on their own terms. Preferences come in to favourite systems but I reckon that, with my gaming group, I could play, and enjoy, any system - even Vampire...

 

 

Doc

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

Or perhaps just going out to a restaurant instead of cooking it yourself. After all' date=' it lets you get to the eating with a whole lot less effort. 'Fast food' implies that it's inferior, and there are a number of great D&D games out there, as well as some crummy HERO games. [/quote']

 

I concede to your superior analogy!

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

I think we're degenrating into HERO vs D20 discussion .....

Happens so eaqsily doesn't it! I guess D20 is always going to be the main comparator because it is the main system out there that people play.

Hero System:

Hero Fifth Edition Rule book: $40.

{anything you want, whatever you can imagine, in whichever setting you can come up with. flat out.}

 

D20:

Dungeons And Dragons Players Handbook: $20

While I don't feel like getting prices on all the following genres:

D20 Modern, Wild West, Sci-Fi, Traveller, Anime, Cthulhu ....

I'm pretty sure you will reach and exceed $200 US very quickly for a rule book to give guidelines for each genre..

A big difference can be the work you have to put in. With D20 the 'work' is more likely to be fun as you read through descriptive passages on how to do stuff - like Tetsuji's 'That's Impossible' feat example. People get excited about the genre as they read about the cool stuff. In Hero, with just FRED then the work is very much about creating the framework of the genre and players seeing what they can and cant spend.

I understand why people think that HERO is a soulless system. I don't agree but it is a perception I understand people coming to.

2D6 RKA, AP, beam, 16 charges (recoverable) is so much more informative but so much less romantic than Plasma rifle.

judging by what I can afford ... Hero just flat out wins the "which one is better" arguement hands down no contest. game over man' date=' game over..[/quote']

 

Yeah - but people like to buy the flavour rather than have the ability to build it - fast food equivalent of gaming!

 

so' date=' trying to figure which one is better is kind of silly anyway.....[/quote']

 

it always is - nothing comes out well in a a discussion of what system is better. Any that has been about for a while has _something_ that gives it longevity.

 

Both D&D and Hero have stood the test of time - though Hero looked awful shaky before Mr Long rejuvenated it...

 

Doc

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

Regarding time' date=' I've read of tales on these boards of someone taking longer to build a D20 character than a HERO equivalent. I personally have taken two hours trying to get a useable Traveller character (back during the time of the original Little Black Books), compared to a half hour typical of a HERO character (2nd edition Champs).[/quote']

 

This is what I mean. It can take lots longer to sort out the D20 character but actual decisions are only what class, what race, what feats and how many ranks in what skills. No real hard thought.

 

For Hero, even when you know the system, it is very much decision after decision after decision - for every power! Once you are in that way of thinking it becomes very easy but if you can't get into that mindset then all you can see is micromanagement that you don't want to do.

 

I love Hero because I can make two fire-based characters that work in vastly different ways instead of both being built round a generic 'fire powers' type selection. Other people prefer the easy decisions - even if it means taking a bit longer poring over the description of each feat.

 

Doc

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

Hero _is_ hard. The very thing that makes Hero an attractive system to those that like it is what makes it a hard system. Nothing in Hero is 'given' to you. You have to make decisions and think, in advance, about what you want everything to do.

Now, for a tinkerer, that is heaven itself. You don't want vanilla, or any other pre-prepared flavour, you want to come up with the precise flavour yourself.

For other people that simply want to tick of a list of options then it is hassle incarnate. "I only want to be able to throw flames from my hands, for God's sake, why are you asking me all these questions!!!"

For the Hero enthusiast it is important to know whether the player _wants_ his flames to cause knockback and BODY. It is important to know whether he wants to be able to focus the flames or to easily spread them to damage lots of people, whether he wants the flames to damage everyone in a line or simply the target in the distance. And does it make you tired?? Lots of different cost considerations there...

I think we have to understand that not everyone gets a rush from understanding the mechanics behind the powers.

There is also the different mechanical resolutions and characteristic uses. Yes, I know, its not huge but it is something that comes up. CV is characteristic/3 while skills are characteristic/5, combat uses the CV with an 11 while skills use the characteristic/5 with a 9. Dice counting is difficult as it is taking two values from the same set of dice rather than just one.

Obviously all of these difficulties are relative and you wouldn't be playing the game if you thought they were unnecessary but each little thing adds up in people's minds, 'specially when they've all heard that the system is hard.

If you have problems with prospective players then there are two options as I see it. The first is to identify those people you _know_ are tinkerers and show them the level of detail that they can bring to their character to make them different from everyone elses. The second is to hide enough of the mechanics to make it look no more complex than your average D20 character sheet.

The secret of selling something to an audience is to give them what they want. Hero allows you to give people exactly what they want - it _is_ more work than other systems but ultimately more satisfying. If you want to make it look easy then cover up all the nuts and bolts and play the game but don't expect people brought up on checklist style games to think that the elegant (detailed) power construction you've provided them with is easier or better than Flame Projection (hands).

Doc

Re: Disadvantage/Limitation: Accidental Discharge

The idea is an energy blaster' date=' who, under certain circumstances, loses control of their powers (their main attack power basically starts shooting in random directions). The concept I'm working on is an electrical character whose main powers go haywire in strong magnetic fields.[/quote']

 

Hmm - its something I've toyed with for a long time and not been able to see it working in play as well as I'd like and so have never allowed it. While the ideas presented are interesting I thought I'd present the problems I found in using it.

 

My last attempt to model it was based on the Activation limitation. Thus within certain environments (emotional or physical) the power would activate outwith the control of the character. I costed this in reverse so that Accidental Activation 8- would be a +1/2 limitation that increased as the activation roll increased. (the commonality of the environment would shift the modifier up or down - so an 8- activated by an oxygen atmosphere would (if I recall correctly) be worth +2 or more).

 

This worked for me as far as creation mechanics were concerned. As for use in play, that was something else.

 

The first question was when would it activate? My answer was at the beginning of every phase an activation roll would be made and if the power activated then the player lost his phase.

 

The second question was how many dice should be used? My initial instint was to say that full dice, all the time. Thinking about it I realised that there was a case for saying that it should be pushed - a really out of control hero would blast everything around him until he fell unconcious - but there should also be some way of damping it down. Makes for more drama in the situation. I thought of EGO rolls etc but never quite settled on anything satisfactory here.

 

The third question was all about what the power would hit? Should there be an attack roll?? What CV should be used? My last thoughts on the matter were that the direction should (unless there were good special effects reasoms to the contrary) be random and that the attack should be spread so that everyone in a certain area would have to defend against it at the OCV of the out of control hero. Again I thought that there should be some opportunity to lower the chance to hit for those heroes able to bring some force of will to bear on their power.

 

Yup. My suggestions make it much more complicated and might even slow down a combat where the power goes out of control but if you can settle on some rules like this I think that the out of control power becomes a much more dramatic occurrence.

 

Doc

Re: How not to come up with a magic system!

Thanks for the ideas. Humm! sounds like Arcane law for RMSS. Doc have you ever read it Maybe I pull it out and adapt from there.

It's actually one of the systems that I have never owned or played...

Sigh what a job.

You LOVE it, don't you. I always work on the principle that Hero players are the ultimate tinkerers and love thinking of different ways the system might be used...

Doc

Re: Help w/a power

Why shouldn't it? I agree you shouldn't get more points than you roll' date=' but the points you roll should be taken from all targets in the Area. If you divide it up, you set up a precedent for dividing up any other attack, such as EB with AE. Would you think it fair for an EB 12d6 AE to only do an average of 3 BODY and 10 STUN if there are 4 targets in the area?[/quote']

 

I'm with Dust Raven. I wasn't aware of the changes - my group will only be changing to fifth when we start a new campaign.

 

I can see the reason for limiting the payback but not the damage to those caught in the araea effect. What advantage would I be getting for spending all those points?? I'd be better buying skill levels!

 

As for buying AE drain and linking Aid - why have transfer in the first place then? Seems silly to require the cludge when there is a better way to achieve a similar result.

 

Doc

Re: Open or hidden dice

The dice are rolled to add a random factor into the game. If I already know a particular result will screw something up, then I ommit the chance of it happening by removing the need for a roll. The action just does whatever I say it does.

 

I see this as being no different than saying when the villains attack or determining which VIPER agent has grenades. I don't roll dice for those things because it would be stupid. It would, to me, be just as stupid to make a roll that could possibly result in the death (or survival) of a player character or prominent villain/NPC when I, as campaign god, have already decided upon the result. If I've already made my decision the why roll?

I think that Dust Raven has written down my opinion before I realised what it was!

As a GM my role is to provide the characters with a plot that they can interact with. As the author it is within my purview to decide what elements are essential to the story and thus what elements the characters cannot actually change.

It is also my role to identify those places where the characters can change events if they do the right things - some of those places might be decided on actions and some might be dependent on how well those actions are carried out.

It is the last places that are open to chance and randomness and probably those places that the dice are necessary. My own personal view is that those random occasions are then enhanced by the players being able to see the dice rolled and understanding that we are all bound by chance at that moment.

Re: Exerience Wish List/Character Creation Question

I'm inclined - in the next game that I GM - to institute a zero power growth game where experience will instead be spent in contacts, reputation and knowledge skills.

I'm going to try and base it on the Golden Heroes system but I want to encourage my heroes to become part of whatever community they hold most sacrosanct.

I will give them more points to begin with and I will allow radical re-writes as part of 'radiation accidents' and any power advancement might come in a step-wise fashion if I decide to move their opponents to a new level then I will facilitate a mass radiation accident where they will all be able to grow in power to meet the new campaign limits.

I think it would be interesting as it would direct the growth more to integrating themselves into the social fabric of teh campaign rather than trying to beat things into submission.

Doc

Re: How not to come up with a magic system!

I am probably going to use a corruption or burnout or tap addiction side effect or a combination of all three.

Oh yeah - you could have a cumulative transform whenever exposed to the leyline energy - no defences if you are using it to power spells etc. Different leylines could have different effects and you could have it as something on the character sheet - Corruption [5] - once the corruption score is 2x the characters BODY then whatever you wish that to do happens.

Obviously the corruption score will decrease as time passes thus allowing the character to once again venture close to the leylines and perhaps even tap them.

I think that giving all powers a burnout chance if they boost their power using the leylines is a good idea - possibly a side effect for backlash etc.

Lots of potential for tactical thinking and colourful magic.

Doc

Re: Open or hidden dice

I use a healthy amount of both. During combat everything is out in the open, but out of combat I tend to do it behind the screen.

 

Of course, a good 2/3 of the rolls I make are bogus

I find myself rolling dice constantly just to make sure that the players aren't aware of when I'm actually rolling for a purpose!

It means that when I roll a dice and ask them what they are doing they don't immediately go into full red alert (unless they are new to the group).

I think they are beginning to realise its when I stop rolling that something is going to happen - as the dice (and the result of them) are visible for all to see....

Re: How not to come up with a magic system!

 

[snip colourful background reading]

 

I think I have created a ambient mana system with a twist, I could be wrong though. The premise for magic in the story is to channel mana in spell formula's utilzing chants and maybe gestures. But they get tired from the spellcasting.

 

I think that I want use ambient/mana system but it causes LTE use for every cast spell. So I thought about using Enduarnce reserves (aka mana) and for every spell cast it also costs 1 LTE End per spell cast, which is not recoverable until you get a couple hours sleep/rest etc.

 

Is this idea feasible?

Definitely feasible. I think from the background the leylines etc sound like they should charge up the endurance reserves and perhaps even provide aid for those spells the casters already know - thus you would have powerful wizards building their towers on power nodes and when they are home they would be far more powerful than outside their tower.

The leylines would be an interesting tactical feature in any map provided to players.

Doc

I moved this from the thread concerning plot device. I thought it might be interesting to find out what people do.

But really, when I used to roll my dice in front of them, the game turned more into a them vs. me situation. I really dislike the game when it comes to that. So I always try to roll behind a screen. I very rarely have to fudge my dice rolls, but the attitude of my players are a marked improvement when I use a screen.

Now personally I have always rolled the dice in front of my players. I require them to show me their rolls and I show them all of mine. Sometimes this means that the plot is derailed due to a bad roll but I often blame myself for that as I allowed that possibility to exist - that is why we use a randomiser after all.

I hate it when the GM 'saves' my character by dishing out puny damage when I know I should be dead or dying. If I did something stupid then my character should die - if I've suffered due to something arbitrary then I expect the GM to come up with something clever to even things up or to give me a break when making my next character.

The Hero System is good in that it is very difficult to accidentally kill someone - unless you are looking at supers versus normals and then it comes down to stupidity on behalf of me (for not making it clear they are facing normnals) or players (for not taking the hint) when someone dies.

I know some of my friends come from different traditions and so in some games we play with open dice rolls and in others we play with hidden - though I notice that players rolls are _never_ hidden...

I was wondering what people did and why.

Doc