Doc Democracy

I think what you have to keep in mind with roleplay systems is that there are horses for courses.

I love HERO as it appeals to the tinkerer aspect of my personality. There is however a high up front cost with the system - which it pays back in the level of flexibility that it provides. A lot of that up-front cost can be offset by buying the campaign books that make decisions for you in how to present and level things. Use the Grimoire for spells, use the bestiary for opponents and use the Fantasy Hero book for equipment and templates.

I am also a fan of the D20 system because of the ease of pick up and play that it provides - often because most people know the system but also due to its design. There aren't too many upfront costs with the system though you _have_ to buy the books.

For freestyle play - as was picked up earlier - my favourite is HeroQuest the new system for playing in Glorantha. It is a fantastically open system and I think could become my favourite superhero system if a genre book was released for it.

Some work has been done on a fan site and I recommend trying it to everyone...

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/bferrie/resources/index.htm

I'd also rather use the West End Games D6 system for Star Wars than any other as the system is structured in such a way that it reinforces the genre.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Hero is a fantastic system but, like every other system, it has its limitations. I recommend looking at more than just HERO vs D20 - decide what you want from your game and choose the system that gives you that.

When I want good player knowledge I tend to look at D20, when I want detailed control of the world and its systems I look to HERO, when I want free-flowing games I look to HeroQuest and when I want Star Wars I look to WEG!

Doc

Just more grist to the mill. In the past I considered making the STUN multiple = the number the to hit roll was made by (to a maximum of 5).

That means that good to-hit rollss with killing weapons are rewarded. It does make them very dangerous to use against normals but it might make 'heroes' more unlikely to use them that way.

I normally use knockback but I have dropped it for games I run for the local kids club.

My take was that rolling with the blow took you away from the combat and you had to either half move back in or take range penalties if you had a ranged attack.

Thus if a PC rolled with the punch I gave them a -1OCV for the next phase. No-one seemed to mind and it reflected the penalties that would otherwise have accrued.

Originally posted by nHammer

What is the education level of your players? It's easily understood basic math.

[...]

I truly do not understand why people think the system is complex. Maybe you just need to teach the system in a different way.

Believe me, the way I teach the system is as simple as it gets. My players are well capable of understanding the system, just resistant to playing something they feel is complicated.

The problem, as in many facets of life, is that Champions is believed to be a complex system. Whether that is or isn't true factually it is definitely the perception _out there_. There isn't a lot you can do about that.

Originally posted by archer

I dunno. I created a D&D3 character a couple of years ago, choosing one that was deliberately a little complex (fighter 4/sorceror 3 or something similar) and it was every bit as much brainwork as a Hero character.

 

I don't think that it's necessarily too complex, but it's a lot of work to learn a new system.

I also think that D&D is just as, if not more, complex than Hero but there's not many non-Hero people that'd agree with you. They see it simply as D20 which they take to be simple maybe because its mass market.

I wanted a core mechanic to present to the players - it makes everything 'feel' more coherent. Its true that if they want to go to the rulebook they'd find something different but then that's what comes of house rules in all shapes and sizes.

Derek's killing attack option seems similar to mine but far more considered and worked out. I think I might steal that.

Doc

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

Why not just write your own game at that point?

Bacause I wouldn't want to go through the rest of the powers etc as I'm quite happy with the point system. I like the 3D6 and I like the stats and on the whole I like the power balance.

I just wanted to make it a bit more coherent for my players.

I've been thinking about streamlining the system. When I present it to people they look at the way the combat calculation is different from the skill calaculation and the normal damage is different from the killing damage and think it is all too complex.

Obviously this adds on from the reputation of the system being complex.

I was thinking of unifying the combat and skills to be simpler. I was thinking that they should both be based on the following

3D6 + stat/3 + skill levels - difficulty modifier >= 11

Thus for a skill you have skill levels encompass both skill levels and the two point adders within the skill and the difficulty modifier set by the GM.

For combat you have the difficulty modifier be the OCV of the opponent. In both cases you are looking to get a modifed total of 11 or greater.

For damage calculations I was thinking of simply retaining the normal damage calculation and using an advantage to say that the attack is 'killing' and thus only resistant defences would apply against it.

You could also purchase increased damage advantages by making a 5 or 6 be 2 BODY, or a 4,5, or 6 be 2 BODY.

Not decided what I'd charge for those yet. Just thought I'd run the ideas up the flagpole and see whether people think this would indeed streamline the system for non-Hero people.

Doc

The whole issue of drug based disablement is one that has bugged me about Hero. The system doesn't seem to handle it particularly well and there are many work arounds that don't really seem to work either.

I was thinking that there might be another way of handling it. I can't decide what the name of the power should be (something like Inhibition) but essentially you decide whether the power affect physical abilities (movement, combat etc), mental abilities (ego combat, perception etc) or both.

I cant decide whether to make it a step by step thing:

Each 1D6 of the inhibition power would reduce the effectiveness of the powers chosen by 1DC and a give -1 to the CV (or applicable skill roll).

So 4D6 Physical Inhibition would mean that a STR 70 brick would be sluggish and only able to effecitvely use STR 50 and a STR 20 martial artist would be using STR 0. Both would be at -4 to their OCV.

Or make it a bigger step thing like damage reduction:

25% reduction in physical/mental skills

50% reduction in physical/mental skills

75% reduction in physical/mental skills

I'm inclined towards the latter and basing it upon the costs of damage reduction but I think that removes some flexibility that might be inherent in the former way.

Doc

I like the idea of there being a limited amount of something - either artefacts or spirits that combine with a human being to produce the superbeing.

Thus, the number of superbeings at any one time is absolutely limited. When a superbeing dies then the artefact/spirit returns to a particular place/relic and the next person to enter/touch the place/relic recieves superpowers.

The history of this could be scientific or mystical or religious and thus you get the growth of the lottery. When a superbeing dies perhaps the relic glows and the authority in charge of it know that they need to run the lottery to allow a new superbeing to be born.

My first thought of a scenario was that the villainous superbeings had worked out how to corrupt the lottery and began to kill heroes and replace those heroes with placed men. Thus the balance between good and evil is disrupted and if the heroes don't work it out then the earth will be dominated by villains for the rest of time...

Re: New GM with serious dilema

Originally posted by Kolava

In a Superheroic game, what do you do about looting focused powers from others?

Do your own players use focused powers themselves to save points??

I know many of the PCs in my games do. What about stealing one of their focuses and having them lose the points. Then ask them whether they are still keen on the 'but it makes sense that I can use it' when that becomes but it makes sense that I can use it or lose it'.

Re: High Dex characters aborting

Originally posted by The Souljourner

So what's up with that? You can abort even if you don't go this phase, by giving up your next segment... but if do go this phase and you have already gone, you can't give up your next segment? Why? It doesn't seem to make any sense. It seems like you always ought to be able to give up your next phase in order to abort, regardless of when you go.

Has this changed or have I always played it wrong? The way I play it is that you cannot abort on the very same segment on which you attack. On the very next segment I can abort my next phase to a defensive action.

For example. MartialArts Man (SPD 6) on segment 2 throws a kick at BrickGuy (SPD 4) hoping to take him out of the fight. It just makes BrickGuy mad and on segment 3 BrickGuy throws a bus at MartialArts Man. As it is the next segment MartialArts Man aborts his segment 4 phase to dive for cover. Both will next move on segment 6.

The way Nate has phrased it seems back to front to me...

I have to admit that when I first thought about this that my initial instinct was to go for limited end battery type stuff.

Then I thought about the character and the comics I've read.

I have _never_ seen the ring run out of power beyond the 24 hour recharge rigmarole. I'd be inclined to give whatever powers based on OIF (the ring) an additional limitation of 'must be recharged every 24 hours' (+1/4).

That brings the focus half way between OIF and OAF which seems appropriate. If you cannot deprive the character of the ring you can make the ring useless by preventing its recharge.

That allows unlimited use of the ring until it is time to recharge. That follows GL canon, no??

I think I'm with Zornwil.

You have to make killing normals less satisfying. I'd be inclined to make any normal hit by a killing attack dead or dying and ensure that the heroes hit often when they attack a normal.

I'm also in favour of enforcing genre by making sure they pay the consequences. Even if you have to switch sub-genre as discussed. I'd say you might be moving from a Teen Titans style game to a Suicide Squad style game.

Yup. The players get to use their killing attacks on normals but they are having to follow Government instructions and it is enemies of the state that are dying. There is also a decent chance that heroes do not survive suicide squad missions so they might be rolling new characters at semi-regular intervals.

When a new character is generated ask them whether they want a 'suicide squad' character or go back to the heroic style of game you started with.

Suicide Squad stuff can be really good fun.

I first bought Champions when I was 16 (1981) as some of the younger kids in our school roleplay group wanted to do superheroes.

Well - I looked at the system and gave up. About two years later during the Summer vacation before I went to university I sat and studied the rules for weeks before making my first characters. I remember the first villain - Titan. I then got a few friends and we played our first game.

My friend was sold on the system when his Black Ninja character got kicked through three brick walls and got up to run back into the fight...

Surely you do it by placing a limitation on the power...

If you say REGEN - only when insensate puddle then the regeneration is cheaper but only usable under those circumstances.

I guess it would depend on how vulnerable this made the character as to how much the limitation is worth....

Like the others said, I'm not sure I would use multiform for the purpose though I might under certain circumstances.

You can achieve what you want using a multipower and if you wanted even more variability - flying form/brick form/speed form/etc then you could consider a variable power pool for the changing abilities.

I think multiform comes into its own when you want to change disads etc. If you were thinking that you wanted to change disads for each form then I think you would be better going for the multiform. But yes - you have to sort the character out from the ground up each time (the pilot is part of the form).

Well in the last edition - and I have been presuming they remained the same in this one - you get the points for the disad and then the points for selling back the inherent running etc.

So, Unable to walk - severely limiting, frequent might gain you 20 points. You'd then get another 12 points from selling your 6" running back.

I think that transform is probably overused and would support the EB solution. If the uncontrolled is a problem then simply add the triggered advantage which would restart the uncontrolled attack every time the victim entered sunlight.

Essentially the power is a GM fiat thing anyway - it's nice to point it out but the points aren't going to make any real difference to whether you use it or not!

Re: Horror Hero Sanity Loss

Originally posted by Thag13

I am sure this has been discussed on this board before, but I am searching for a Hero Machinic to simulate the Call of Cthulthu Sanity Loss.

This really depends on what you want to do mechanics wise. One way would be to have all things related to sanity to have the same transform attack. It is cumulative and when it overcomes your body you gain a 20 point disad. This is a more permanent action.

You could accomplish the same thing using the Aid mechanic whereby every encounter with eldritch stuff causes the character to gain points towards a PSYCH disad. You could buy down the recovery rate to however long you wanted the player to take to psychicly (sp?) heal the damage done to him.

Originally posted by Zaratustra

You could always raise the cost of characteristics.

Maybe give more characteristic-related perks to make up for it? (1 CV for every 2 DEX instead of every 3, Power Defense from CON, Mental Defense from EGO or INT, etc)

I have recently increased the cost of STR to 2pts but also changed the damage to 1D6 per 3 points.

15 STR now costs 10 points and gives 5D6 where before 10 points got you 20 STR and 4D6.

30 STR now costs 40 points and gives 10D6 where before 40 points got you 50 STR and 10D6.

45 STR now costs 70 points and gives 15D6 whereas before 70 points would have given you 80 STR and 16D6.

I've only used it with Justice Inc so far and it has given the characters a bit more granularity as far as their fighting stuff goes. The players were also less inclined to demand higher strengths.

Obviously it works out very similar at higher strengths and I haven't yet noticed any real imbalances using martial arts etc.

I have just run a Justice Inc game for my group based on the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. They aren't really pulp fans and so were struggling for names and I wasn't feeling very creative.

As I was doing my daily SPAM delete I noticed one of the names on the spam was Ulysses Hope, to my mind a fantastic JI name. I also gleaned Avalanche Gifts and Mavis Quick over the next few days.

At last, I believe I have found a use for the spam that I recieve...

What I want is the kind of thing I'd see in a Referee's Manual.

I'd like to see some discussion of how to present the game to the players to make the system more conducive to the genre being played.

Last weekend I ran what was essentially a Justice Inc session but designed the sheets myself to make them more friendly to people that lean heavily towards D20.

I presented all of the stats and skills with bonuses, e.g. STR 20 (which gives a STR roll of 13) was presented as Strength +3 and similarly any points of skills were presented as bonuses. So 3 pts spent on Climbing got Climbing (STR) +0 - the STR indicating they should add the STR bonus. 5 points would give Climbing (STR) +1.

I presented the combat and skill resolution system as having to beat 10 on 3D6. The roll is modified upward by a characters combat bonus (OCV) and modified downward by the targets defence bonus (DCV).

Similarly skill resolution required 3D6 to beat a roll of 10 where the roll is modified upwards using relevant skill and characteristic bonuses and downward by difficulty factors and/or resisting skills.

I simply wrote out the Astounding Talents each of the characters verbally without ever referring to game mechanics other than END cost.

It all went very well - with no-one asking how good a particular skill or ability was. And this was from a group that profess to dislike the complexity of the Hero System.

It would be interesting to have a handbook outline how presentation can spectacularly influence the acceptance of a game - and then describe how that might be done. (I reckon a thinnish book and CD-ROM would be sufficient!)

Originally posted by Seraphim

And I am toying around with captain hook being the ba guy.

Did you come up with anything. I am just about to run a steampunk game for my group - almost all non-comics readers and so am using the War of the Worlds story from the second book as a base for their first adventure.

I'm planning on a Pirate story for the second. I just think that Iron John Roberts sailing the seas on a steampunk'ed pirate ship would be a fantastic tale for my Union of Astounding Companions.

Re: Biochemical Body Control?

Originally posted by FenrisUlf

And does anyone know of any good basic books on biochemistry or the like so I can pick up something at least vaguely scientific sounding for Doctor Adrenaline to use when describing what he does? He is the team scientist/doctor; I really ought to provide him with a somewhat credible vocabulary...

No added ideas but Stryer's Biochemistry is a very good, readable book that you should be able to pick up cheap second hand.

A better solution might be Schaum's Outline of Biochemistry

which is essentially a study guide to biochemistry and so should give you all the techno-speak without the 'unecessary' detail!

A quick look on Amazon showed it to be available for $12 new and $8 used. If you are in a university town you might be able to pick it up even cheaper - or just consult it ad hoc in the library.

Re: Power building help

Originally posted by Tae Kwon Dan

1. The ability to make inanimate objects harder\tougher. e.g. turn someone's clothing into armor.

 

So here are my thoughts:

 

1. At first I had thought about using Aid to add to the DEF or Body of an object, but I'm thinking this is really a Transform ability. You turn someone's clothing into armor or you make a baseball bat effectively a lead pipe.

I just thought I'd add something to what people have already said.

When you first come to Hero it can be difficult to get into the mindset of how the toolbox works. It is easy to get caught up in the names of the effects in the toolbox rather than their game effects.

You moved away from the aid to DEF because it didn't seem to fit the 'transformation' style of the power. But, the power as initially described was exactly that - increasing the DEF of inanimate objects. The transformation of a baseball bat to a lead pipe would be the special effect of the power - people would notice that a power had been used and the object would be tougher than it originally was.

I still have problems with this sometimes when the name of the effect in the book keeps me locked in with what I wanted. My biggest triumph with this was constructing a character whose powers were based on making duplicates of herself without ever using the duplication effect described in the book.

I've never played Nephelim - just to make that clear - but I thought I'd answer based on the question.

I think it would depend on how you plan to effect the change of host effect. If it is simply a game effect then you can ignore it. The character would transfer bodies and would take with them the INT and EGO they had in the old host body. I would average the PRE of both hosts - to reflect the influence of attitude and image and any powers associated with the original host.

Physical attributes would remain with the host body. So everything else stays there. If you had spent points on running then they'd be lost (though I might be persuaded to allow 1/2 of the points to be translated as knowing how to run as much as developing the necessary musculature).

My heroes would be based on incomplete stats - I think rules for these were out there somewhere - perhaps in Horror Hero. But the host bodies would essentially be like items picked up in a Fantasy Hero game - something you use and cherish but don't get _too_ attached to!

At the start of the game you might tell the players that they have their point quota that they can spend as usual - with the warning that points spent on physical developments could be lost forever if they switch host bodies.