Wyrm Ouroboros

Okay, so I'm banging together a weapons VPP for a player of mine (online game, yadda yadda), and I paused to ponder something:

Silencers and Flash Suppressors.

How would you build them? Would you 'simply' add the +¼/+½/+¾ advantage to the weapon, which (unfortunately) may boost the active cost past the VPP's limit? Would you create the silencer/flash suppressor as a 'Naked Power Advantage', something to the effect of 'Invisible Power F/X vs. Sight & Sound, +¾, up to 45 Active Points', and allow the character to use the item as a free add-on to any of their firearms? Or perhaps built it as a Darkness to Sight & Sound, Only For Attached Weapon's Discharge -- and what would THAT Disad be worth?

Originally posted by talisman

My favorite:

150 presence. This guy scared pretty much everybody all the time. He was a hippy, and even losing dice for situations, could pretty much just give the "peace" symbol with his fingers and make Mechanon run away

Okay, going to finally wade in on this topic.

In general, I would require the characters to pay for major magic items. Minor ones -- things to make life easier, a magical lighter or a fish-filleting knife (or a fishhook that summons fish ) -- I would not make them pay for. Powerful mystic swords, axes, bows, etc. I would.

On the other hand, I would also be willing to 'balance out' how such things are given out; if part of the 'treasure' found was a magic item for everyone (and the experience necessary to buy them), but there wasn't a magic item for the mage, I would instead include some object that would help the mage increase his mystic repertoire -- a book, spell components, whatever is necessary to contain the character points designed to let the mage gain a new spell and/or expand his MPow or VPP.

Any magic items gained as treasure should automatically have the 'Independent' limitation, with the mage gaining character points equivalent to that gained by the magic items. Is this fair? Yes and no; while the mage's enhancement isn't going to be equivalent to that given to the rest (i.e. he doesn't get a 3d6 HKA or some such), his is going to be permanent. Everyone else, their magic items can be taken away; you can't rob the mage of his power.

In essence, this is 'just' another way of giving out XP, albeit earmarked for specific expenditures. There's another way of acquiring a magic item, of course...

If a character is going to go to market, my ruling would be that they both a) have to pay the cash price and have to pay the Real Cost for the item up front. Depending on your world, most mystic items just aren't available for purchase. Oh, maybe you'll find a collector willing to part with a Mouse Knife or a Rat Blade (see the Magic Items thread), or maybe you'll get taken in by three guys pulling a scam. (Happened to a player of ours once who wanted to buy a magic sword. Got sold a regular, not-particularly-good blade.) Finding a '+3 Defender' on the open market? Just not likely to happen. (Wanting to SELL your +3 Defender on the open market? First, find a buyer...) If it's a real magic item, though, I'd make the player pay both costs up front, and out of their regular XP.

I'd also allow them to NOT have the Independent limitation on the weapon they buy -- or, in fact, buy off the Independent limitation on any magic item they acquire in the course of their adventuring. Why? Because some things you just always get back. Indiana Jones always gets his hat back; James Bond always keeps his cool. (Okay, so that isn't a magic item.) If they lose it, great, another RP/Plot hook. No, they don't automatically find it stuck in a tree, but they should be able to get it back, sometimes through peculiar chains of events...

Two words: Underground Base.

If the villan is in an underground base with only 'one known entrance', which entrance is serviced by an elevator (go down the hall, get into the elevator, etc.), the heros are going to have to either a) get into the elevator, or get into the elevator shaft. The trick here is to make them think that the ELEVATOR is the deathtrap; it isn't. The deathtrap is the elevator shaft.

Flight, thus, is 'taken care of'; with the walls a) given enough DEF and hardened (double hardened, 'dimensional vibration field', whatever is necessary to stop the teleportation), this takes care of the other capabilities. A lighter-than-air poison gas would be good; they only have one way to go, down. Combine this with two rams (the elevator itself, perhaps?) compressing the shaft, and you have a knockout/squish deathtrap that perhaps can only be stopped by a brick shoving his hand between the wall and the edge of the lower 'press'. Perhaps the 'off/reverse switch' is on the other edge of the lower press, or there's a lock there that has to be picked, either one able to be accomplished by someone with Stretching, TK, or a quick-thinking gadgeteer who cannibalizes parts from his power armor.

Re: Magic Item Aesthetics

Originally posted by Galadorn

I agree. What we need to do I think, Old Man, is have a section for aesthetics (appearance, beauty). But this would take an advertising executive....like me! LOL

... or someone competent at writing descriptions and backgrounds. Like any long-term MU*er.

Problem is, this takes alot of reflection and time. Creativity doesn't just happen, well not quality creativity anyway.

I daresay I can disagree with you there. Most truly creative individuals are constantly creative, and some have a hard time getting everything down. It is after everything's gotten down that they can weed through it and select the best and the brightest...

Besides, I dare say I'm not doing too bad...

Honestly, for good RPers, any 17th-19th century game is rife with RP hooks. Revolutions everywhere, small and large wars, Napoleon (twice!!), Prussia ... everything. Politics was rampant. And you can always make it an 'update' of the Three Musketeers...

For a long time, HERO had skills that 'didn't fit in' -- didn't have controlling characteristics, IOW. Mechanics was one, I don't offhand recall the others. However, all these skills started out at 11-, that being the 'default trained level'. The REAL default level in HERO is actually a 9-; labs in bases start out at 9- and must be purchased up. If you want to be picky, permit your players to select a skill at 9- or 11- (I'd recommend 11- -- that's the 'trained, but not fully trained' sort of level, while 8- is 'well, I know how it's supposed to be done...' level) for 2 points, then raise the skill from there.

However, I hold the opposite opinion: if Jim Genius receives the same information, the same training as Ned Normal, Jim's going to be much better at it. Why? Because Jim's going to make connections that Ned isn't, Jim is going to take the logic one or more steps further, Jim is going to be creative in his application of the material. This was the beef I had with 'non-controlling-characteristic skills' in the BBB; some of the skills there had (IMO) logical, obvious base characteristics, and yet they received no 'boost' for it.

So if you want to have that 'half-step' between 1-point 8- and 3-point 9+(CHA/5), go with the 2-point 11-. It's an acceptible step, a 'partially trained in the field' move. If Secret Agent 014 starts out with FAM: Bureaucracy (8-), he can spend 1 more point to gain Bureaucracy 11- after a few sessions dealing with HMSS. Further down the road, SA014 has figured out how to work the system, and (after spending yet another point) now has Bureaucracy 14-. (Smart man.) It fits what you want to do. Make the ruling.

I daresay I agree with the above 'END Reserve, Reserve's REC on charges.' Say he has a 200-point END reserve for the webshooters...

END Reserve (200 END) (20 Active Points); IIF (-¼) 16 points, PLUS END Reserve REC (40 REC) (40 Active Points); IAF (REC Capsules Kept On Belt) (-½), Charges (1 Charge Continuing for a Full Turn, 4 Clips, -¾): 17 Points

Total: 33 points.

Yeah, maybe it's a little klunky, but it gives what you're looking for -- a 'recharge capsule' that reloads the webshooter but takes a few seconds to do it. There might be some sort of penalty for having the REC of the END Reserve separate from the reserve itself, but WTF...

... or just the scientists, i.e. the guys who happen to be 'Contact, 14-, Very Useful Skills (Scientific)' for the characters.

My answer is 'how you make any other character/contact interesting, useful, someone the PCs care about -- give them personality.' Give them a voice, a mannerism, a bad habit. Give them an agenda -- 'Superman, did you talk to the mayor about Affirmative Action like I asked you to?' Have them call the heros up and ask THEM to do something in return (for once!). Better yet, have them be able to be contacted, but 'I'm sorry, Mr. Superior, but I can't give you an answer on that. Or rather, I won't give you an answer on that one. It's against my religion/philosophy/moral code.' Instead of them being PC Contact #12, write down a few particular character notes -- skills, beliefs, mannerisms.

You don't have to whip up a whole character sheet for them, but you should have a few lines of notes, especially about how/why the hero can contact them.

You may also be thinking of the way they described the 'Gate' Advantage (or is it an adder?) in FREd.

Pushover?

Well, yes, actually, she IS a relative pushover. Standing in the middle of dry land nowhere, she has 10 Strength, 15 Con/Body, 50 END, 38 STUN. 2d6 EB, 4/3 Armor, 0 STR TK (limited to things containing/supported by water, or water itself), but 2 levels of Growth (so she COULD have a 20 Str). I'd recommend some basic martial arts, just so she can defend herself -- Block, Disarm, Dodge, and Throw. However, she gains a swift 16 Actives (more-or-less doubling her abilities) if she pops open a fire hydrant and stands in the shower; if she popped open several in the same area, I'd give her the next step up, ergo another 16 Actives.

So yes, she's a pushover until/unless she gains access to water. Of course, that's pretty much what you're looking at, here, right? "Hi. I'm Water Maid. Guess what I do?"

Oh yes, I also gave her a 23 Dex and a 6 SPD; water is deceptively swift, and amazingly, err, agile...

Perhaps, but Ice & Fire is a very 'low-magic' world, something that the AD&D interpretations just don't hold up to. They have Danerys, for example, as an illusionist of something like 7th or 11th level, I don't recall -- and Danerys is "only" a Targaeryan (sp?) with dragons. (Okay, so she's got a very high ED vs fire, a subconscious psychic link with three 'followers', and currently rules a city with a -major- army backing her. Still doesn't make her an illusionist.)

Hero, especially FREd, CAN live up to this, even to the point of describing Valyrian steel (AP or Penetrating, maybe both), the alchemist fire (Uncontrolled, Sticky, END Reserve based on the size of the container), everything. Yes, Jon Snow may be a 100 to 150 point character, but these are competent, even outstanding, normals; there are only really two spellcasters in the entirety of Westeros so far, and both of them are (supposedly) priests of a god that 'doesn't belong there'. (I prefer the greenmen and the godswoods.)

So while Jon Snow and Ghost may be 100 points, most everyone else isn't much higher -- focussed on different things, perhaps, but certainly not much higher, pointwise. It all balances out, right??

Hey -- would the Lannisters have, collectively, 15 points worth of wealth?

Hey, it's up to the GM. A 1 pip HKA isn't even an icepick, though, you know?

Honestly? Any crime performed can be performed by a super. A crime of passion (or hate) would be the easiest, i.e. a killing or a major beating. Maybe a local businessman is found in his office, electrocuted, the lock melted shut. Maybe a large group of <insert minority here> are found beaten mostly to death in a local <insert location here> where they're known to get together. Maybe the bank or a local wealthy individual has been robbed, but not a single alarm was triggered -- a couple million (or jewelry worth a couple million) has been stolen.

The Avengers aren't going to be called in on these cases; why bother Mr. High-And-Mighty with a 'simple' case when he probably has to go wash his spandex after saving the world this afternoon? With paranormals in existance, policework suddenly becomes more knowledgeable, more complex. Detectives and FBI Agents are all college grads; they aren't stupid, and in a world with Powered individuals, they should have a broad knowledge base about what powers can do.

So maybe a chap was pissed off at his boss, went in after hours to argue that HE should've gotten the promotion instead of Johnson, and found out the nasty way that he was an electrokinetic. He hasn't told anyone yet.

So maybe a low-level paranormal who really hates <insert minority here> walked into the <insert location here>, and basically provoked the <minority> to jump him -- whereupon his minor karate training and hyperactive nervous system (read: 27 Dex and 5 SPD) let him kick their collective asses.

So maybe a homeless, underage teleporter, frustrated with being a) homeless and underage, snagged a fix on the inside of the vault, collected a score of gym bags, and *bamfed* in after hours for a major withdrawl. Now he's being careful about 'living it up', but how many 15-year-olds do you know who have season tickets to the Met AND the Mets?

Or maybe an ultratech jewel thief, 'well-known' in Japan, was comissioned by a collector to steal the Heart of the Orient (a lovely emerald-and-jade necklace) from its current owner -- but the collector is now balking at the 'asking price', and the jewel thief is trying to figure out how the hell to put the damn thing back, considering the current police investigation...

None of these scenarios really require a paranormal investigator, just one who knows about paranormal abilities. Granted, partnered with someone who can sense paranormal abilities (whether mystic, biological, or technological) would really help things out, but hey, you can't have everything.

Also, remember that excepting the very last scenario, none of the individuals are liable to be wearing costumes; even with the last one, it's going to be a 'second story man' costume, a facemask, black clothing, and web gear for the gizmos. These crimes aren't supercrimes by supervillians, they are 'ordinary' crimes committed by extraordinary means -- but 'ordinary' crimes nonetheless. Most of these criminals won't even make a blip on the radar of most superheros, and in some cases, the superhero is going to try to figure out a way to make things right without tossing the person in jail. How many heros can you name who have con artists, rogues, thieves, or kids as contacts?

I'd give advice, but I have a problem: I don't have any Champions supplements, so I know neither the Ultimates' names nor their abilities. If someone can make a quick list, then I can probably plot out an entire battle plan for you...

That was (roughly) 275 points worth of characteristics and powers; I am almost tempted to add Presence and/or Growth as water-based powers; the bigger the drink, the bigger the form, the more, errm, stunning (yes, that's it, stunning) she is. Reminds me of the 'Firestorm' comic where four of the DC Elementals -- Red Tornado, Swamp Thing, Firestorm, and I can't remember the water elemental's name -- showed up to attack a minor Japanese city. They were vast...

Anyhow. Yes, that's the girl. Eyeballing Aid, though, it might be better to get 1d6 Aid, +10 Maximum Points per level, then give a Limitation of 'All AID Points Lost After 1 Turn Out of Appropriate Water Size (-½)'. I say only -½ because it isn't TOO much of a problem, especially if this is 'Fathom, Avatar of Water' -- she isn't ever going to go very far from major amounts of water, i.e. the Mojave Desert is going to be a real rare place to find her. So instead of 126 added points, it's 'only' 122.

I replaced Strength with Growth (at 0 END), all things considered; still not certain about the PRE. That lowers her STR to 90, or 70 if we set the Growth at Persistent; I don't see why it'd have to be. I think I prefer the larger Growth, putting her at 80m tall, a true colossus; come to think of it, there should be a Side Effect with that. 'Side Effect, Area Swamped with Water: 1d6 EB, 0 END (+½), Explosion (+½), Double Knockback (+¾), Continuous (+1) per 2 levels of Growth, Major Effect, Affects only surroundings on the ground, Always Occurs when using Growth: -1½'. At least I think it'd be -1½.

At the maximum (16 Levels) it'd be an 8d6 constant 'water burst' flowing down and around/away from her, double knockback and everything. Bad, bad Fathom, wading through the city streets, washing cars and sh!t away. Granted, this would ALMOST act like a Damage Shield against anyone who wasn't above the surface of where she was walking, i.e. in a building or flying. On the other hand, this is usually going to not matter, since almost as soon as she comes out of the water, she loses the additional power. As a consequence, I think I'd keep this at the -¾ level, then increase it to the full -1½ if/when she ever buys off the 'Aid Points Completely Lost After 1 Turn'.

Cramper

"No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulderblades will severely cramp his style."

-- Steven Brust, Jhereg (Paraphrased)

There are some weapons that are special -- and others that are more special than some. This is one of the less special ones, but people of less-than-savory reputation do tend to seek out such things. The knife doesn't really have a name, but it's acquired the nickname 'Cramper' in recent times, due to the infamous saying about wizards and knives. Particularly well-balanced, rogues have found that it is an easy weapon to wield, even to the point of doing other things at the same time...

History: Cramper has no real history, having shown up on the streets of the city only a dozen years ago. It's seen several owners, the current one being a cutpurse and thug by the name of Mack.

Game F/X:

a) ½d6 HKA, 0 END (+½), Ranged (+½), +2 STUN Mult. (+½) [25 Actives]; OAF (-1), 4 STR Minimum (-¼), Real Weapon (-¼): 10 Points

+2 SPD [20 Actives]; IAF (-½): 13

c) Penalty Skill Levels (vs. Off-Hand Penalties, 4 levels) [12 Actives]; OAF (-1): 6 Points

Total Points: 29

Well, I've never had such horrid luck, but one of my fellow players had absolutely abysmal luck with his dice -- but only when he was trying to kill other PCs, which was generally at a 'once every other game' frequency. And the thing of it was, he was always so close -- in Battlelords of the 23rd Century, for example, a %-based system, he tried a headshot at my character and missed by a lousy 2%. (It may have been the fact that he adored trying for headshots that caused him such grief, but that's Otis for ya...)

Of course, at that point I quickdrew my two hubba-hubba money-money-money weapons and blew the 2-million-credit weapon he'd been using away. The expression on his face was priceless...

The Red Sword

Beware the Red Sword; its life is thy death...

-- unknown mystic

A simple-seeming gladius when in the sheath, the Red Sword is unmistakable when bared. Legends abound about the weapon, but this lowly scribe will sum them up here: a short blade, somewhat leaf-shaped, with a wide blood groove running down the middle. The metal is tainted faintly red, but the preternaturally sharp edge virtually glows the color of fresh blood. Both crosspiece and hilt are unadorned and unspectacular; the pommel is a simple ball of steel.

History: The Red Sword has a long and bloody history; its name comes not from the color of the blade, but from all the life it has spilled. Created thousands of years ago by priests of either a god of either war, death, or murder (or perhaps all three), the Red Sword has outlived both its cultists and, perhaps, the very god it was meant to honor. Its wielders have found themselves drawn into fights almost constantly, and more often than not into whatever battles or wars happen to be occurring nearby. Maximillian the Dead is known to have held the blade, as well as the champions of House Nerr'th before their fellow Houses destroyed them to the last. All wielders of the Red Sword have proven to be uncommonly quick in combat, easily dispatching multiple opponents within moments.

Game Statistics:

Package: The Red Sword, OAF Unbreakable (-1), Side Effect (character always acquires the Disadvantages Berserk While In Combat, go 8-, recover 14- (to be rolled when first wounding someone in combat) and Reputation: Untrustworthy (when character first displays possession of the weapon to a new group), -1): 21 Points

• HKA 1d6+1, 0 END (+½), Penetrating (+½) (40 Actives); STR Min 7 (-½), One-Handed Weapon (-0): 11 Points.
  
• Rapid Attack (HTH) (5 Actives); 1 Points.
  
• Penalty Skill Levels (4 lvls vs. Sweep Maneuvers/Block) (12 Actives); 4 Points
  
• Reputation (Weapon of Mass Destruction): Large Group (virtually everyone), 14-, 5 levels (15 Actives): 5 Points
  

Just drawing the Red Sword should be considered a presence attack; people facing the blade should be very edgy about doing so. Of course, drawing the weapon means that everyone in the village/town/city will shortly know you have it (presuming anyone survives seeing the blade but you), and consequently your reputation will be shot...

Or buy the 'Rapid Fire' advantage, applicable only for that weapon, using the weapon as the focus. Hmmm... *goes to post to the 'Mystic Items' thread...*

Well, if all you want to do is boost her current abilities -- not tack on adders or enable her to do new things -- then why don't you just go with a Succor?

Elemental Power

Succor, 1 (or 2) d6, to All Water-Related Characteristics/Powers (+2), 0 END (+½), Persistent (+½), Inherent (+¼) [21/42 Actives]; Must be Immersed in Body of Water of Appropriate Size (Variable)

Then limit that per body-of-water size, thus:

Fire Hydrant(s): -¼: 17/34 Pts

Pond/Fountain: -½: 14/28 Pts

Lesser River: -¾: 12/24 Pts

Major River, Lake: -1: 11/21 Pts

Harbor/Bay: -1¼: 9/19 Pts

Sea (Mediterranean, Bay of Fundy, any Great Lake): -1½: 8/17 Pts

Deep Ocean: -2: 7/14 Pts.

Your totals would be 7 (or 14) d6 of Succor, at a cost of 78/ 157 Points: but in deep water, the character would gain 42/84 Active Points in but a few moments' time.

This looks like a major power to me, so I agree with the major cost; theoretically, you could stick 'Self Only (-¼)' on them, which would lower the point totals to 68 and 137 points, respectively, meaning that they'd average 1 extra AP on all their powers per 1.6 CP spent here. Theoretically, you might also be able to tack on 'Always On', but that isn't really a limitation, ergo it ain't worth nothin'. This power, see, you drop her into the water, and it happens.

Also, if you want to get more of a delay on the power, instead of buying dice at the higher end, just increase the maximum effect -- 2 points per 1 AP. You might thus stop the dice at River (3/6 dice), and afterwards just add on 10 or 20 to the maximum at every level, which would put her at ... (add add add) a maximum of 58/116 additional Actives in every characteristic/power if she's been tumbled into an ocean. Bad News for Supervillians.

The only 'problem' with this is that if she's taken from her power source (i.e. knocked out of the water), she loses all of the boost immediately. You can always change this to Aid instead, tack on a Limitation of 'All Points Lost After One Turn', which might be worth a -½ Limitation ...

But think of it: this means points to all characteristics and powers -- Strength, Constitution, Body (most likely), Healing (if the character bought Regeneration: Only In Water), EBs, TK, Defenses (at half, of course), END, STUN ...

This is a very dangerous character.

I like her.

I think I'll use her as a villian. Heh heh heh.

---------------------------

[Added] Built my little water-elemental, with a 'These are the water-powers' block for easy manipulation. Um ... you don't want to piss her off in mid-ocean. Using the 'increased maximum', you're looking at someone with: STR 136, CON 73, BODY 73, 105 REC, 400 END, 300 STUN, a 25½d6 EB, 77 STR TK, 65" Swimming (x8k NonCombat), Regenerates 9 Body per Turn (and comes back from the dead), and has defenses of 27/15 PD/ED plus 22/20 rPD/rED (1/2 vs. Fire).

I think she'll be an ecoterrorist; the best ones like this always are, right? Right??

I may be wrong about her height, yah. On the other hand ...

Let's go see the Marvel site. Who do we have?

• Pip the Troll: 4'4"
  
• Wolverine: 5'3"
  
• Wasp: 5'4"
  
• Shadowcat: 5'6"
  
• Phoenix/Jean Grey: 5'6"
  
• Phoenix/Rachel Summers: 5'7"
  
• Rogue: 5'8"
  
• Nightcrawler: 5'9"
  
• Spider-Man: 5'10".
  
• Psylocke: 5'11"
  
• Beast: 5'11"
  
• Angel: 6'0".
  
• Thing: 6'0"
  
• Sub-Mariner: 6'2".
  
• Captain America (Steve Rogers): 6'2".
  
• Cyclops: 6'3"
  
• Silver Surfer: 6'4"
  
• Thor: 6'6"
  
• The Hulk: (Banner) 5'9", (Grey) 6'6", (Green) 7'0"
  
• Colossus: (Regular) 6'6" (Armored) 7'5"
  

So I'd guess that the average is about 6' for the males, 5'7" for the females. Okay, don't ask about Pip the Troll. I'd've put Puck in there, but they don't have any information about him, durn it...

Originally posted by Trebuchet

Here's how Zl'f compares size-wise to a typical 6'3" male superhero. (At 4'10" tall, she's shorter than the average American 12-year-old girl.)

Hate to say this, but I'm pretty certain that picture is off. I'm 6'3", and one of my friends -- 5'4" -- doesn't quite come up to my shoulder. On the other hand, I've done the copy/resize bit, 4'10" being 77% of 6'3", and it matches, more or less...

Scary, that.

Hmmm. Not sure, but I think I'd go with the first option -- though if there's a major connection to an even larger body of water, I'd probably state that the larger body applies, i.e. Gulf of Mexico == Atlantic Ocean, but Hudson Bay does not.

On the other hand, you're going to have to determine exactly how frequently the more major bodies of water are going to be accessible. If the character lives in New York, yes, hydrants are on every street corner, but the river's over there, and the harbor's over there -- just lure the villan over to the harbor, and *POW*. This may take some talking over with your player; on the other hand, you might go the route Doug recommended, figure out an overall/average penalty, and judge it off that. 'X Active Points at Y Level' would be appropriate.

And, to be honest, I really do like the VPP for 'water powers'; again, you might have the maximum actives set to the amount of water. You should probably also set the maximum available pool points based on the available water -- while s/he may be able to do massive things (60 Actives) with the whole ocean available to her, you don't want her to be doing 60 DIFFERENT things with only fire hydrants.

You also need to work out range; does the character have to be immersed in/touching the water, or is there a range for access? Can s/he, standing in Central Park, command the power of the Atlantic Ocean (right nearby) or are they limited to the 'small lake' of water they happen to have one foot in?

Of course PRE attacks should be permitted; the question is (usually) when. I personally prefer several points during a combat:

• At the beginning, more-or-less as your Phase 12 action, usually to cow the opposition's goons. "Surrender now, miscreants, for it is Major Payne you face!"
  
• When the PC or villan has just blown off one of the opposition's major attacks, especially a 'signature' attack. "Leapin' Lizards, DestructoMan, he took your Earthbreaker punch and didn't even flinch!!"
  
• When the PC/V has taken major damage, but climbs right back to their feet and is still comin' on. "Oh my god. You blew a hole right through him, and he's still coming !! I'm gettin' out of here, man!"
  
• When it's critically necessary to rally the troops. "Stand firm, soldiers! We are the only defense between the Bezerkers ... and our families!"
  

There are also great points to use Presence attacks outside of combat; basically, whenever you want (or need) to wow a person or a crowd. Batman standing in the doorway of the biker bar, ready to kick ass in order to get the information he needs is one example; oddly enough, Superman (dying of an energy drain) barely able to make it through the same door, asking for help from the same bikers is another one. Captain America might not be able to fight the fire, but he CAN make a Presence Attack on the panicky theatre crowd in order to get them to stay calm and proceed out in an orderly fashion. That sort of thing isn't Oratory; it's a PRE attack, with lovely extra dice for the Reputation.

You know, I'm really going to love that Perk...