Wyrm Ouroboros

Re: Favorite 60-point Power Construction

Yeah; just take Personal Immunity, and put 'Does No Body' on the bees. Though, being an NND, it should already do stun only....

Re: Fun Character concepts

Nutshell, a superrich hypergenius technophile megalomaniacal hero.

Determined to conquer the world through heroism, sharp dealing, and sheer cuteness.

Members of his fanclub get on his List Of People Not To Destroy. Join today!!

Re: Perks and negative cost

No, wait -- I suddenly see where tesuji is coming from, and the problem comes from a he's got a basic error in conceptualization. 'Selling back' stuff you get automatically is one thing; going negative on something you DON'T automatically get is another.

All characters in a campaign Automatically Receive certain things at campaign start -- all basic stats at 10, for example, Running 6", Swimming 2". These are the Core Character Abilities. If you want to reduce your character's core abilities -- make him a 6 STR weakling, for example -- then you 'sell back' 4 points of STR, and get 4 Character Points which you can spend elsewhere. So now, in a 200/150 game, they have 204 points which to spend without HAVING to take disadvantages to balance out the additional points.

This is legal, because you are reducing your Core Character Abilities. If you want more than those Base+4 points, you have to take Disads, up to the campaign limit.

The Core Character Abilities do not -- and let me emphasize this, do NOT -- include 'I own a base'. Because in a 'points for wealth' campaign you start out at a rough $75,000/year salary, it may/probably will include 'I own a middle-class home/rent a decent apartment' -- said home/apartment being nothing in particular except for basic living space. You cannot therefore 'get points to spend elsewhere' by getting a base and making it crappy, because you don't have the base to start out with. The home isn't the base; the home/apartment is a reflection of your purchased MONEY situation. You want to get points back because you have a suckier home? Take Money (Poor): -5 or Money (Destitute): -10 as a Disadvantage.

So if you spend 1 point to get a base, then sure, take a DNPC: Sucky Base disad, if your GM lets you. But that disadvantage is the only way you'll legally 'get points back' for having a bad base.

Figuring the cost for a base, however, is just like figuring the cost for a character: X points to start, and Y bonus points from disadvantages. As a GM, I might allow X to equal up to the character's starting points, and Y to equal up to the character's max points from Disadvantages.

So, to summarize: you can sell back Characteristics and Running because you start out with some. You cannot 'sell back' a base, because you do not start out with one.

Re: Perks and negative cost

i type fast and very sloppily and i was "taught" that e-mail and such are "informal" communication and not required to be as properly formatted as a standard letter - so - it boils down to -i really dont give a hoot.

Online, you are as you write. Email and other online text communication is now as formal communication as a registered letter. If you don't give a hoot, then why should we? You are babbling -- which statement means 'you are illegible and unclear.' As legibility and clarity are the two things you need to have in order to make your point, you should strive for them. Proper formatting enables the first, and helps with the second.

In any case.

Apparently I'm not understanding what point you're trying to make.

1. Is it that you should get points back on a base that has a 'negative cost', points that you can spend somewhere else? Not allowed.
   
2. Is it that you do have to spend points for such bases, but that they're permissible? GM's call.
   
3. Is it that such bases should be disallowed completely? Again, GM's call.
   

What it's going to boil down to is whether or not a specific GM is going to allow such a base in a specific game. It'll vary from GM to GM and even from game to game; the GM simply needs to be aware of the difficulties involved, whether between players or in the game world. So what's the issue? Clarity and legibility are requested.

Re: Tesseract Storage Device: Cheesy?

I've an archer with flatspace bracers (from Ultraviolet) out of which come his arrows, bows, etc. I put the power together as OIF on the MPow pool (bracers can't be taken away in combat), but OAF on the slots, because any particular slot can be disarmed during combat. The current combat is a good example -- he's wearing his bracers, but the combat staff just got knocked out of his hands. (Well, okay, he got knocked clear across the room and reduced to 0 STUN, hence the staff is no longer in his grip, but that's beside the point.) He can, when his turn comes around, 'call out' a new weapon, even a new staff (because he's got several stored in there), but he's going to have to get the weapon extracted first.

Re: Perks and negative cost

Tetsuji, I can't follow your babble most of the time, and from what I'm able to read you're misrepresenting things anyhow, so let me put it this way:

If your base is at a 'positive' cost, pay the 1:5 CP/XP for it. If it's at a 0-point or 'negative' cost, pay 1 point for it, then take the base as a DNPC as appropriate to its ability to assist you. Remember that the GM will enforce your base's disads just as stringently (or more so) as your character's disads. Go to your base, find that it's been blown up, occupied by VIPER, your staff has quit and filed an injunction against you for public endangerment and gross negligence, and that your base computer has become intelligent and gone rogue.

To put it a bit more plain, so that you can understand:

You Don't Get Points Back.

You can't get a vehicle, base, computer, automaton, contact, or ANYTHING else and RECEIVE points for getting it. "I had 350 points, but I took this crappy base and now I have 351!!" is NEVER going to happen. Instead, 5 of your 150 points of Disads from the 200/150 starter group is going to go to 'DNPC: Crappy Base', along with 1 of your character points because you do have a base.

No points back. Never.

Here's the other thing -- a base that has disads equal or greater than its base cost (thus bringing its point cost to or below 0) is going to be seriously crappy. The character is going to have ten times the headache for a tenth the usefulness. Yes, I understand what you're saying, but think of HOW MUCH CRAP he has to wade through on a daily basis just to get to use those 150, 100, or whatever points worth of base. If he is not, then the GM is not doing his job. If he isn't doing his job, the players have a right to bitch. "He's got a zillion extra disads, and you're not screwing him over. Why aren't you screwing him over??"

Build the crappy base, pay a point for it, take the crappy base as a useful DNPC, get screwed over ALL THE TIME. If the GM doesn't chortle with delight at the player trying to get away with that shit, then the rest of the players need to get a new GM. If he does, then the rest of the players should sit back and kibbitz -- or better yet, be allowed to play the base's enemies against the hoser player trying to get away with this crap.

So. Never XP back. Disads == Bad Times. Do you get it now?

Re: How Would You Build: Sequenced Effects

Sorry - nothing to do with the actual question but the original post got me thinking: if (as I have on numerous occasions) you build an entangle with a linked continuous damaging power (the entangle crushes you or wraps you in barbed wire or coats you in ice and you slowly freeze) do you apply the damage from the linked damaging power to the entangle first i.e. does the entangle act as a defence? I suppose you'd have to' date=' applying the rules. Seems counter-intuitive though , and the alternative looks much more expensive.[/quote']

 

This is where Gradual Effect on a damage sort of comes into its own. You shoot the entangle and its linked EB, and you say 'you take X damage over Y period of time'. If they break free of the entangle, the EB ends; no more gradual effect damage. Otherwise, they take damage. Even better -- uncontrolled gradual effect.

 

Also, you could have a naked 'transparent to attacks' modifier for the entangle, limited only to your EB's SFX. Yeah, it COULD be expensive, but hell, you're sticking 'em in a block of ice and wanting to freeze 'em to death, it SHOULD be expensive...

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

Remember' date=' Angel's blood heals any wound it touches. Don't ask me why, it just does.[/quote']

 

That's recent. (And wasn't that Cannonball's brother?) Fedifensor's got the concept spot-on, IMO; if you actually look at what he does in the funny pages, Angel was a 350-point character in a 250-point comic. Woefully underutilized, really.

Re: Perks and negative cost

No one seems to be griping about the following.

 

I have a 350 game.

I spent 200 base pts and took 150 in disads for 350

i have 348 cp of good stuff spent plus 2 cp on a base.

On the base i have an additional 50 cp of disads allowng 60 cp

my base has size 5 for 10 cp

my base has the 50 cp autodoc

my base has 1 lab for 3 cp

 

in the above book legal example i have taken an "additional 50 cp of disads over the normal limit and no one gripes.

 

Now buy the same base for 0 cp without the lab or for -1 cp by buying it size 8 without the lab and what happens?

 

suddenly 'you are getting more disads than others are and are effectively getting more cp from them... thats a no no" is an issue.

 

I could understand it if everyone thought "base disads should be counted against the total disads" WHETHER THE BASE WAS POSITIVE OR NEGATIVE but they aren't.

 

its a problem because "negative bases are bad"

 

it seems woefully inconsistent to worry over "extra disads" on bases IF they have a negative score but to be fine with them as long as the base has a positive score.

 

It would be a much different discussion if, before people throw a what if at "bases with negative score" the first asked "is this any different from bases with a positive score?"

Always go back to the base and character Golden Rule: You Pay Points For It.

If you have a 150-point base that has 200 points of disads, you're still going to pay at least 1 Character Point for it, because it's a base, and that's what you gotta do; you don't get 5 points 'back' because your base sucks wind; you have a base, and 1 CP is what you pay for the privilege of having one.

Active (total) points spent on a base, vehicle, Multiform, all that stuff, should be similarly based on the character's maximum total cost. No purchasing a 1000 point base in a 400-point game, putting Character Points towards 200 of them and ladling on 800 points worth of Disads. If you want your 400-point base to have 300 points of disads, sure, as a GM I'd allow it, but I'd be having your base blow up, break down, get invaded, or have staffing issues every single game session -- sometimes multiple problems all at once. The base would, in short, become more trouble than it was worth. "I can figure anything out in my Super Library ... if I can figure out where the door to the damn thing is this week." I would expect SuperBase Player to very shortly ask if he can turn in the base and use his 5 points (or 1 point) for something else.

Anything else is foolishness and asking for trouble.

In a game, however, some people may buy into the base; some may not. One of my characters (Freedom) bought a base (huge sprawling X-Mansion 'School For The Gifted' sort of place) which had disads (students) right at game start. Other PCs eventually started buying into the base, because they were using it -- points went into improving facilities, defenses, lessening the DNPC kids (i.e. improving their abilities), even taking the kids as contacts of the base. (Not sure if that was legal, but the GM said it was, ergo...)

If I have disads on the base, I'm not getting 'extra disads for free' or whatever; no matter what happens, I'm spending points on the base. I might get bonuses to rolls when I'm there, it may be a nice place to live/retreat to/whatever, but all of it is dependent, focused on, and centered around the base. If the GM isn't making a person spend points on the base, and in fact is giving the PC points back because they built a sucky base, then the GM's missing the point and doing it wrong.

Having thought about this further for an entire two seconds, it occurs to me that a GM could give a character or team the base 'for free'. This feeds into the PCs disads, however -- DNPC, Sucktastic Base. How crappy the base is (i.e. disads greater than cost) helps decide how 'incompetent' the base is; it SHOULD start out at this point:

Dependent NPC: Sucktastic Base 8- (As powerful as the PC; Useful Noncombat Position or Skills)

For every, oh, -25 or -50 points in disadvantages, it moves down the 'power' level by a slot. And for every couple of Hunteds or Base DNPCs that are going to blow the place up (or get kidnapped, go on strike, etc.) on a semi-regular basis, increase the frequency by a level. Or the character DNPC frequency is one lower than the base's Hunted frequency, plus one for every two extra Hunteds at that level. (So to get a 14- Character's Base DNPC, the Base would need 2-3 14- Hunteds or DNPCs. NOT Watched; watched is just what you get for the money.)

Please note that it's going to have to have a few nasty Hunteds and a fair amount of klunkishness to get to the 'I can take the Base as a DNPC.' And no double-dipping by taking one of the Base's DNPCs as your own DNPC too.

Re: Help me get into Bricks.

Or a foot-stomp or ground-punch AoE/explosion on up to X STR, Personal Immunity, is also nice. "Nyah nyah, ya missed... uh, you weren't aiming at me, were you..."

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

Come to think of it' date=' in a JLA fight with a team of supervillains, Batman assured a victory by bribing the most powerful supervillain. The bribe was a blank check signed by one of Batman's 'civilian agents' (Bruce Wayne), made out to the orphanage where the supervillain grew up. Ironic, since Bruce being orphaned was his superhero catalyst.[/quote']

 

I've never thought of Bribery as a combat skill before...

 

That's good. I'll have to try and use that in game sometime. I can't wait to see the look on my GM's face...

 

Thinking back, this is something my character Freedom did in a round-about way. So many supervillians were in it for two reasons -- get rich, and beat people up. In her Secret ID, she was developing an international mercenary team, composed significantly of (ex)supervillians, always with very specific tasks in mind, and very high pay. "You can work for me -- you know, 'Wreck that military base, then go to Kuala Lumpur and party.' Or else you can go into prison for three-to-six. Your choice." I don't think my GM knew how to handle it; I know my fellow players got a little annoyed at it. But hell, I paid 15 points for it, right??

Re: Help me get into Bricks.

Best thing to do is to give yourself a Multipower of Brick Tricks. For example' date=' you can do a Sonic NND based on the deafening hand-clap, a wind energy blast based on super-breath, the wrap-em-up Entangle, Shockwaves ...[/quote']

 

Absolutely. My best brick-tricks (okay, Kung Fu tricks) MP wound up having to get converted into a VPP, just because of the wide variety of Cool Things you can do. Mega-leaping kilometers at a time; 'Leaping Downwards' at insane speeds (40" gliding, downwards only) for a full-power smashing move-through; planting your feet and taking that speeding getaway truck right on the shoulder.

 

Hm, let me see...

 

This is Shu Ching. His skill at Kung Fu gives him a lot of Jet Li / Jackie Chan common-object 'weapon' stuff, but there are a lot of kick-butt things in there.

Re: Three point CSLs

So theoretically if "Defensive Strike" counts for growth momentum' date=' is appropriate as the more or less exclusive attack for that personality, and I'm willing to spend at least 10 points picking up martial manuevers and can figure out a basis for a martial arts style that is appropriate to both shapeshifting style attacks and (bamboo) sword attacks.. then that suggestion could also work.[/quote']

 

IIRC, Growth momentum, like other momentum, counts with any Strike. As for the possible 'art', well -- depends on what forms you have, really. A shapeshifter (or a group of them) could develop an art that uses the ability to shift shape as a combat technique; White Wolf came out with 'Kailindo' for their werewolf characters. As for combining different form movements with human/sword, well -- for a human, a sword is a long claw or a horn. Go from there.

Re: Super Shield

Whilst I appreciate the mechanical principles of soft martial arts (and I use the word 'soft' with a great deal of respect), they still can only magnify available strength to a finite degree. IIRC the woman actually hurled Hulk. I'm thinking not.

 

Take, for instance, a compact car running at you. You've got no chance of deflecting that. You have to get out of the way. Judo and aikido rely to an extent on the principles of leverage meaning you can grip someone in a certain way and defeat them even though they are much stronger because your strength is magnified. Similarly with throws and blocks your strength is magnified by th eprinciples of the art.

 

There is a limit though, and I'm confident that if something was as heavy and strong as Hulk, you'd have simply too much momentum to deal with to block effectiely - it would be like that car coming at you.

 

We may not agree on that - fair enough -my thesis is simply that martial art give you an enormous mechanical advantage - but there comes a point where even that is not enough. Block doesn't - probably quite sensibly - address the effect of extreme strength differences.

First, a little story:

Three martial arts masters were walking across the street when an out-of-control bus careened around the corner and barreled down on them. Each master reacted as per his art:

The karate master gave it his best punch-kick combination.

The judo master tried to use its own momentum to throw it.

And the aikido master got out of the way, finished crossing the street, and called an ambulance for the other two masters.

The Hulk, however, is not exactly a bus; he's a bipedal humanoid. A bus can't be tripped; the Hulk can. Go running at full speed, then trip across something; better yet, have someone help lift you as you trip. Did you go straight into the ground? No, of course not; you tumbled forward. Forward momentum doesn't stop just because you're going down. The principles of these arts is not entirely that they magnify your strength; it's also that they pit your full strength against the other individual's weakness as well as using basic principles of physics in your favor. A moderately-trained four-year-old can, using these basic principles of physics, leverage, and anatomy, throw a massively-muscled bodybuilder.

The Hulk is still a bipedal humanoid who can trip; she, essentially, tripped him. I do, on the other hand, agree that the general Block doesn't deal with radical differences in strength; which is why there are some things that the GM should influence.

Re: Aid as a weapon

I still prefer mine -- and it has some amount of precedent, considering 'Unluck, UAA'.

Re: Think Tank

Good point, though he doesn't actually have Required Skill Roll on his VPP control. They are dependable powers.

 

I guess I'm trying to figure out... If he has the telekinetic power to launch himself at better than Mach 10 from a standstill, he should gave the telekinetic power to level a city block.

The powers in the VPP are as reliable as any other; changing the VPP requires a skill roll when in combat, or else it takes between 1 Turn and 1 Minute. A so-called Cosmic pool can change as a 0-Phase Action and requires no skill roll to change; both of these are +1 Advantages. Think Tank has the Power skill (Psychic Powers: Power 18-, Real Cost 7), which is required to change the VPP in combat, and took a +1/2 Advantage on the Pool so that he can change the powers as a half-phase action.

All in all, he's spent 185 points for these powers; that's a 93-point Cosmic VPP with the 'Limited Powers (Psychic, -1/2)'. While this is moderately powerful one-on-one, it isn't quite as full-strength flexible -- he couldn't have all of the EC powers up at once at the level (and lack of disad) that they're currently at, all at once.

As for levelling a city block, well -- for 79 points you can get a 1 km hex Megascale 3d6 RKA vs. inanimate objects only ...

Re: Super Shield

I know, I know, I just can't resist worrying at that one

 

I would argue that Cap could use his shield to deflect Grond's punch, just not stop it dead, in the same way that a normal block often requires just a touch to give a punch sufficient lateral movement to make it miss.

 

Arguably in a realistic game we ought to limit our ability to block with something like 'ineffective against extremely strong/heavy opponents or attacks', but the character sheet gets so cluttered...

 

I remember seeing a Hulk comic once where someone (a middle aged scientist type) used judo on Hulk - quite effectively. I know it is all about using your opponent's strength against him but you still need an awful lot of strength to have any effect on something as big and heavy as Hulk.

Yes and no. While it is a lot about how you define it (Doc Samson power-blocks, while Daredevil deflect-blocks), some of your posits are essentially incorrect. You really do not need a lot of strength to have any effect on something as big and heavy as Hulk; you need the right technique and the right leverage. Aikido works better the smaller you are, because it's about balance and the way the body is put together; being offensive requires moving outside of your center of balance, while being defensive does not. Judo's throws are essentially the same, as are 'deflection-blocks', which are half dodge anyhow. Remember that most of the 'strength' of the punch is in directing it forward (and thus doing damage), not controlling its lateral movement; the targeting took place BEFORE the start of the strike.

And the way I heard it, the Hulk was in Japan, trashing Sunfire and all the Avengers, and went bounding down full-steam towards some little old Japanese lady, who judo-threw him into a concrete block or something.

Re: The Alien Hall of Fame

Meh. Andorians. "Sure, we have a logic system as strict, structured, complete, and universal as the Vulcans. But it includes emotions, too. Shove that up your ponn-far."

Re: Think Tank

This is perfectly legal, and perfectly advised by almost anyone on the board. Just remind him that the powers in his VPP cannot ADD to the powers in his EC -- he can't have 10" Flight in his VPP and be going 22" (i.e. adding 10" to his 12" EC Flight).

He might consider the possibility of balling all his stuff into one VPP, though, making the VPP 'Cosmic' (0 Phase Change, No Skill Roll) and dumping the Power skill. This is, however, a point consideration as well as a stylistic consideration. Right now, he's looking at an 11- roll to change 70 Actives in his VPP -- remember, -1 to the roll for every 10 Actives he's changing, and he has 'only' an 18- roll.

Re: Aid as a weapon

That's a tricky thing, really. Adjustment powers can't add or subtract Advantages/Disadvantages, only adders.

Hm. I know. I have neither books nor HD handy, so you'll have to do the math and refine it on your own, but here's the idea:

Aid, Xd6, All Mutant Powers at Once (+2)

Naked Modifier, Limited/No Conscious Control (+Y), Usable As An Attack (+1), to All Powers at Once (+2), Continuing Charges/0 END Uncontrolled, for up to Z Actives.

Put X at whatever you want, and put Y at whatever the normal disadvantage for L/NCC is. Z, of course, should be something impressive, so that the character can only use a very low amount of their power at best. Link one to the other in order to reduce the cost and give the 'totally screwed' effect.

Alternate to L/NCC, use 'Requires EGO Roll, -1/5 Actives' and 'Side F/X (Power goes NCC for full Phase)' instead -- or 'Always On' plus 'Beam/Must Be Used At Full' if you really want to be mean. Stick 'em into a MPow in order to use the best function on any particular target.

If this is meant to be a permanent/seriously long-term alteration, however (such as what Loki did to Iceman in the long-ago), you're probably looking at a Transform to adjust the character's Powers completely.

Re: Super Shield

I think that the idea of a 12d6 attack 'rolling high' and 'blowing through' the Force Wall version is juuuust fine by me. Even an elite decathelete combat master can't get hit by a Mack Truck doing 40 without some bloody side-effects and knockback. When contemplating this stuff, remember what is most appropriate for what sort of action. Shielding from a firebomb or dragonflame or a hail of bullets -- or even just one bullet? The Force Wall. Duking it out with the Hulk/Grond? CVs to Block or just increased DCV. Falling? Sorry, you ain't standing on the FW shield and soaking the damn thing that way.

Me, I don't think I'd go with the missile deflection -- well, maybe, but definitely not the reflection.

Re: Three point CSLs

Bah. Take your martial art, make sure you have both 'hand' and 'bamboo sword' as weapon elements, then get your 3-point levels in the MA.

Re: Ninja Spring Leap

The way you have it is pretty good right there. I'd limit it to full moves only as well, but that's me.

Re: Helpful Fans of your Hero

On occasion these sorts of people are also useful -- recall the super fan-boy in Galaxy Quest -- in 'non-combat situations'. You might, therefore, also want to purchase a comparatively low-level organizational contact, 'Heroman fans'. Or higher-level, depending on whether or not you have lots of them, etc. etc.

Re: Rainbow's End and Beyond

Fortunately, I am not that large... But I amten times that smart. 40 Int ...