[Help] Suggestions for Campaign Limits

[The Horror]

Ok, here is the situation. In a month or so I shall begin my first Champions Campaign. This is my first use of the full blown Hero System (I've previously used only the playtest Sidekick rules).

 

The characters are using 300 points base + 150 points disadvantages.

 

There will be two groups, one of Supervillains (4 players) and one of Superheroes (5 players). Both of the groups have to build a base and vehicles from their points, but the Supervillains each get to pick 3-4 free Henchmen that will be about 250 points with disadvantages each. Some of those evil henchmen will have goons under them in turn (like the ninja school for example).

 

The Supervillains are not aware that a Superhero group is out there to foil them, and depending on how well the Supers respond to the problems they may not even be an issue for the Villains. The Villains have to concern themselves with accomplishing the objectives of their evil master, with competing Supervillain groups within their evil organisation, with the government authorities, with each other, and possibly with the Superheroes as well. The Superheroes concentrate their game on their secret identities, relationships around them and with their communities, and with foiling the plots of the Supervillains (as in meeting and beating up the henchmen when they are sent out on missions).

 

At some stage there will likely be cameo appearances from one group into the other, and maybe even a full blown fight between the groups at the climax.

 

What sort of limits should I put on character design? I have to be very careful not to unbalance things because at the final battle one group could potentially absolutely anhilate the other way too easily. I know the villains have 12-16 henchmen extra, but the vast majority of them will be always away on missions, captured, killed, imprisoned, etc.

 

Right now I am working on the assumption that it's going to be a 60 point cap on active costs, with an 80 point cap on their main gimmick power. A limit of about 4d6 on Killing damage, and of 12d6 on their main attack (8-10d6 on the rest). As far as armour goes I figured a cap of about 10 rPD/rED, and of 20 PD/ED on top of that.

 

I figured that 4d6 KD would mean about 4 body on average would get through from nasty attacks. A cap of 20 PD/ED on top of that would mean about 12 Stun points on average would get through from a 12d6 hit.

 

The problems I see. If they pick these allowed defences, an average 8d6 hit would do no Stun. A 10d6 hit would do an average of 5 Stun. None of the normal damage attacks would do any body, except for the 12d6 hit which would do usually 2 body damage.

 

I was also going to set a cap on stats and skills points (subject to individual exceptions based on character) based on the recommended limits in the Champions book for 350 point characters.

 

Does this sound ok? I'm worried because once the characters are made it will be too difficult to go back and change them all, as well as all the NPCs.

 

One of the characters wants to go a Colossus type brick. What sort of armour should he have (probably a little higher than the limit)?

 

Any help is very much appreciated.

 

 

The Horror

[Jhamin]

Re: [Help] Suggestions for Campaign Limits

 

Originally posted by The Horror

The characters are using 300 points base + 150 points disadvantages.

 

This is moderatly high powered. Nothing wrong with that, but if you are trying to balance this many players in two groups against each other, then the more points you let them have the harder it will be.

You can build a skilled and well rounded character on 200+150. If you are worried I would stick with that. Balance is easier.

 

The Supervillains are not aware that a Superhero group is out there to foil them, and depending on how well the Supers respond to the problems they may not even be an issue for the Villains. The Villains have to concern themselves with accomplishing the objectives of their evil master, with competing Supervillain groups within their evil organisation, with the government authorities, with each other, and possibly with the Superheroes as well. The Superheroes concentrate their game on their secret identities, relationships around them and with their communities, and with foiling the plots of the Supervillains (as in meeting and beating up the henchmen when they are sent out on missions).

 

This sounds interesting. It also sounds really ambitious. I might start smaller, but then I don't have the free time I once did. You may be able to pull it off. When a buddy of mine tried pitting two different groups against each other it fell apart because each group had to go too far between sessions & it was impossible to hold onto the momentum of the story. If you can do it, let us know! It sounds like a blast.

 

 

What sort of limits should I put on character design? I have to be very careful not to unbalance things because at the final battle one group could potentially absolutely anhilate the other way too easily. I know the villains have 12-16 henchmen extra, but the vast majority of them will be always away on missions, captured, killed, imprisoned, etc.

 

The only sure way is to build the characters yourself, but your players may not be cool with it. Failing that there will always be some characters stronger than others. You might get lucky but don't count on it. Assume you will need to add some allies to the mix on one side or the other at the end. Also consider how slow combat will be when it comes time to run the big fight with all those players. Many a cool climax had collapsed under the weight of getting 12 people together and all focusing on the game on the same night.

 

>>SNIP<<

One of the characters wants to go a Colossus type brick. What sort of armour should he have (probably a little higher than the limit)?

 

The whole point of a limit is that it is a limit. If you make an exception for somebody then everyone will want an exception of some kind for their charcter. If you have an Armor limit than maybe only Colossus guy can be at that value and everyone else goes down from there.

 

Otherwise this is going to get away very quickly with all those characters.

[The Horror]

Re: Re: [Help] Suggestions for Campaign Limits

 

Originally posted by Jhamin

When a buddy of mine tried pitting two different groups against each other it fell apart because each group had to go too far between sessions & it was impossible to hold onto the momentum of the story. If you can do it, let us know! It sounds like a blast.

 

I plan to run one session a week. Each group plays on each alternating week, and at the end of each session they tell me what they want to have done in the downtime before the next game (mainly for the Supervillains).

 

 

 

 

The only sure way is to build the characters yourself, but your players may not be cool with it.

 

I plan to build the henchmen myself, and to help out everyone of the PCs with their character creation. First create all PCs and their bases (one group at a time), then let the villains pick their henchmen from a selection of 40 or so pictures. Some are going to be better than others, some are going to me more loyal, etc. I'll decide all of that after they pick the pics of course.

 

 

The whole point of a limit is that it is a limit. If you make an exception for somebody then everyone will want an exception of some kind for their charcter. If you have an Armor limit than maybe only Colossus guy can be at that value and everyone else goes down from there.

 

The problem is the Colossus guy should be able to take an average 4d6 RKA. So he needs at least 14 rPD/rED.

 

I've let them all know that the limits (that I am still to decide on) are not guidelines. They are limits. However I am not adverse to there being an occasional exception here and there. Not something that should even be suggested by the players. Rather something that I decide will keep the balance of the game and enhance the flavour. So with this guy for example, he wants to be like Colossus. That's cool as you should be able to do that. But if everyone else has the same limit as him then there is a problem.

 

The only problem is that like I said I don't have a lot of experience with Hero, so suggestions as to the active point caps, max damage from attacks and max defences allowed would be most welcome.

 

 

The Horror

[Trebuchet]

Never mind caps; you'll never find a perfect formula anyway. We use a simpler guideline in our campaign: SPD + DCs <= 20. It evens out with multiple characters since this is a point-based system, especially since SPD and it's Primary characteristic (DEX) are the two most expensive characteristics in the game. 16d6, 4 SPD. 12d6, 8 SPD. Trust me, this works just fine.

 

I agree with Jhamin that 450 points is high, especially since you have limited experience running Champions. Consider this: If you put on a 12d6/30 PD limit, your characters will achieve that level of damage and defense with only 26% of their character points. So what you'll end up with is characters with a tremendous variety of attacks and very high overall defenses. Do you want every single character to have Mental Defense, Power Defense, Flash Defense, Hardened, etc? Do you want even the bricks to have oddball NND/AVLD attacks? Expect that sort of thing if you give 450 points and such low limits on damage and defenses. Even the martial artists will probably have 30 PD and ED. And every single character will do 12d6/60 Active Points per attack.

 

I'd either cut down the points or remove the limitations on damage and defenses completely.

[The Horror]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

Never mind caps; you'll never find a perfect formula anyway. We use a simpler guideline in our campaign: SPD + DCs <= 20. It evens out with multiple characters since this is a point-based system, especially since SPD and it's Primary characteristic (DEX) are the two most expensive characteristics in the game. 16d6, 4 SPD. 12d6, 8 SPD. Trust me, this works just fine.

 

I agree with Jhamin that 450 points is high, especially since you have limited experience running Champions. Consider this: If you put on a 12d6/30 PD limit, your characters will achieve that level of damage and defense with only 26% of their character points. So what you'll end up with is characters with a tremendous variety of attacks and very high overall defenses. Do you want every single character to have Mental Defense, Power Defense, Flash Defense, Hardened, etc? Do you want even the bricks to have oddball NND/AVLD attacks? Expect that sort of thing if you give 450 points and such low limits on damage and defenses. Even the martial artists will probably have 30 PD and ED. And every single character will do 12d6/60 Active Points per attack.

 

I'd either cut down the points or remove the limitations on damage and defenses completely.

 

I really like the SPD + DC system. The more I think about it the more I like it in fact.

 

Removing limitations however make me a bit nervous in general. During the test game we had there were characters running around with 12d6 HKA. One shot gimmicks essentially. I definately don't want to see that. I think I'll just use the recommended range for high powered supers out of the Champions book, with the upper limits indicated there being the absolute limits for the characters or something.

 

Either way, the players are not going to get close to the rulesbook until the have a very very clearly defined idea of what the characters are meant to do, and what their background is like.

 

Thanks for the help guys. I do appreciate it.

 

 

The Horror

[Ghost who Walks]

Sounds like you are going to have a great campaign.

 

Couple of ideas:

1) Your limits on attacks look fine. Make sure the henchmen types are even more limited. Watch for a player trying to put all the skills he should have into his flunky.

 

2) Make sure if someone takes *2 effect from fire, that the other team has someone on it who projects fire. More fun that way.

 

3) Make sure you have the right to refuse any submitted character. With 9 players, there will be a couple that are "off".

 

4) I would avoid certain powers in the Hero book, and not allow them to the players. They have stop signs next to them.

 

5) Your large number of players sounds really ambitious. I extend my admiration to you.

 

6) Watch for players who load down characters with disadvantages on their powers, to get a bunch of powers cheaply.

 

7) If you are planning a short campaign, (couple of months), I would start the characters at about 350 points, with a requirement of a minimum of 50 points in skills. I would also give out more experience than normal, in case one player has a power no one has any resistance to (everyone forgot to buy flash defense, or mental defense, or power defense, etc.)

 

 

Regarding Colossus: I would do him as a normal brick, who can turn into an armored form. The armored form would get Damage Reduction and denisty (in an Elemental Control). He will probably weigh a couple of tons when armored, which is a big disadvantage once the enemies know it. have him take extra damage from something that the other team has as an attack (but only when in metal form) Electricity is good for that.

 

Basicly, I allow players to exceed the limits on attacks/defenses, but always put some kind of limitation on them. I have one player who runs a character with a 20d6 explosion. While she is immune to the blast, it has been bought at no range. So basicly she is a walking bomb, who can't enter an airport

[Magmarock]

Ooooh, purposefully pitting PCs against each other. now there is a recipe for disaster. Hmm, I try to avoid such a thing. People are just too competitive and won't appreciate having their PC lose a fight, get captured or killed.

 

But, if your players are of exceptional quality, with a stronger bend toward roleplaying than combat, it might work.

 

My suggestion is to make them rival hero teams instead. Then, at least, they have a chance to work together toward a commone goal...

 

Mags

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by The Horror

I really like the SPD + DC system. The more I think about it the more I like it in fact.

 

Removing limitations however make me a bit nervous in general. During the test game we had there were characters running around with 12d6 HKA. One shot gimmicks essentially. I definately don't want to see that.

We've used the SPD + DC formula since we converted our campaign over to Fifth Edition a year or so ago, and have been more than pleased with the results. It created a greater spread amongst our characters of SPD and damage dice, probably the most useful indicators of a character's general combat effectiveness. BTW, in our 350 point campaign no character has hit 20 using our formula, although two hit 19. Most of the team is 17 or 18.

 

In a high powered game such as you're planning you'd probably want to increase the 20 to a 24 or even a 26.

[assault]

Originally posted by Magmarock

Ooooh, purposefully pitting PCs against each other. now there is a recipe for disaster. Hmm, I try to avoid such a thing. People are just too competitive and won't appreciate having their PC lose a fight, get captured or killed.

 

Yeah. They don't like losing at chess or football, either.

 

I don't see a bit of competition being a problem in RPGs.

 

Perhaps you should consider that RPGs were essentially a spinoff from miniatures wargaming campaigns, which were emphatically competitive.

 

The cooperative aspect of RPGs makes interplayer interaction easier, but adding a competitive element outside that could make life much cooler. Of course, the problem of handling lots of players emerges at that point.

 

Hmm... I suppose you could do it with smaller groups... Two groups of two or three wouldn't be overwhelming, would it?

 

Anyway, previous posters have pretty much covered any thoughts I have on the main topic of the thread.

 

Alan

[Solomon]

Re: [Help] Suggestions for Campaign Limits

 

Good luck for your campaign. I second Jhamin and others in suggesting you should start at 200+150 points, especially if this is your first HERO campaign.

 

I woudn't worry too much about players having high resistant defenses and BODY damage rarely getting through. Bouncing bullets off your chest is just a staple of the superheroic genre. Besides, being bulletproof is not a sure-fire path to victory.

 

If a player wants to exceed your set maxima, I would let him. But ask him to keep below your maxima on another characteristic. Colossus wants high defenses? Let him, but ask him to tune his Speed down, for instance.

 

As for henchmen not being able to damage heroes...

An 8d6 will overcome a 20 defense about half the time. So just keep the 8d6 attacks plentiful and you can easily bring down the hero. Also, henchmen can do haymakers too. That's +4d6. And Henchmen can have Find Weaknesses.

[Agent X]

Henchmen, if they aren't super, aren't supposed to take down heroes. So please have the henchmen be super.

[Solomon]

250 points henchmen probably are supers, albeit low-powered ones.

[The Horror]

Originally posted by Agent X

Henchmen, if they aren't super, aren't supposed to take down heroes. So please have the henchmen be super.

 

Oh, I do plan to have them be super alright. I'm only still contemplating the points to build them on. Right now I'm thinking of making them 350 or so each. That works out nicely when the team must face 1-2 of them + assorted non-super goons.

 

For the final battle (if there is one) I'll just make sure that the odds balance up in favour of our heroes. One of the henchmen can turn to the good side along the way, another bunch can flee, or be busy, killed, imprisoned, etc. Meanwhile another few can be traitorous scum that take the attack as an opportunity to turn on their masters. It will be easy to balance things through at the end with the henchmen.

 

 

Originally posted by Magmarock

Ooooh, purposefully pitting PCs against each other. now there is a recipe for disaster. Hmm, I try to avoid such a thing. People are just too competitive and won't appreciate having their PC lose a fight, get captured or killed.

 

But, if your players are of exceptional quality, with a stronger bend toward roleplaying than combat, it might work.

 

Most of the players are really hoping that it will work out. The villains know how they are supposed to act. They know the importance of gloating about their plans, of placing captured supers in easily escapable traps, of threatening the world with their power and so on. But all this is of course only relevant if the two groups actually come into direct contact with each other. Chances are that will not begin happening for quite a while after play begins.

 

The Villains (and only the villains) also know something very important. The bad guys almost always lose. They know that to tell the best story, that the heroes should end up saving the day. The big question of course, is how they are going to do it. Will they overthrow their evil master only to be unable to handle the power they acquire? Will they fail because of their own flaws, or because of the incompetence of those around them? I don't know. They'll have to sort that out for themselves.

 

But what kind of a superhero game would it be if the game ended with the world under the rule of one of the Villains?

 

Originally posted by Trebuchet

In a high powered game such as you're planning you'd probably want to increase the 20 to a 24 or even a 26.

 

My thoughts exactly. I was thinking 22, but I might go with 24. I'll also make the DC for purposes of counting be based on the active cost of the power. So someone with 90 active points in an AP AF EB will have purchased a DC of 18 for purposes of calculating how much SPD they are allowed.

 

 

Originally posted by Solomon

I woudn't worry too much about players having high resistant defenses and BODY damage rarely getting through. Bouncing bullets off your chest is just a staple of the superheroic genre. Besides, being bulletproof is not a sure-fire path to victory.

 

If a player wants to exceed your set maxima, I would let him. But ask him to keep below your maxima on another characteristic. Colossus wants high defenses? Let him, but ask him to tune his Speed down, for instance.

 

As for henchmen not being able to damage heroes...

An 8d6 will overcome a 20 defense about half the time. So just keep the 8d6 attacks plentiful and you can easily bring down the hero. Also, henchmen can do haymakers too. That's +4d6. And Henchmen can have Find Weaknesses.

 

All excellent advice. Thank you very much for that.

 

 

 

The Horror

[Agent X]

Originally posted by The Horror

Oh, I do plan to have them be super alright. I'm only still contemplating the points to build them on. Right now I'm thinking of making them 350 or so each. That works out nicely when the team must face 1-2 of them + assorted non-super goons.

 

For the final battle (if there is one) I'll just make sure that the odds balance up in favour of our heroes. One of the henchmen can turn to the good side along the way, another bunch can flee, or be busy, killed, imprisoned, etc. Meanwhile another few can be traitorous scum that take the attack as an opportunity to turn on their masters. It will be easy to balance things through at the end with the henchmen.

 

 

 

 

Most of the players are really hoping that it will work out. The villains know how they are supposed to act. They know the importance of gloating about their plans, of placing captured supers in easily escapable traps, of threatening the world with their power and so on. But all this is of course only relevant if the two groups actually come into direct contact with each other. Chances are that will not begin happening for quite a while after play begins.

 

The Villains (and only the villains) also know something very important. The bad guys almost always lose. They know that to tell the best story, that the heroes should end up saving the day. The big question of course, is how they are going to do it. Will they overthrow their evil master only to be unable to handle the power they acquire? Will they fail because of their own flaws, or because of the incompetence of those around them? I don't know. They'll have to sort that out for themselves.

 

But what kind of a superhero game would it be if the game ended with the world under the rule of one of the Villains?

 

 

 

My thoughts exactly. I was thinking 22, but I might go with 24. I'll also make the DC for purposes of counting be based on the active cost of the power. So someone with 90 active points in an AP AF EB will have purchased a DC of 18 for purposes of calculating how much SPD they are allowed.

 

 

 

 

All excellent advice. Thank you very much for that.

 

 

 

The Horror

Kewl. It's always good when the cute supervillainess with a crush on a hero turns to the light side of the Force.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by The Horror

My thoughts exactly. I was thinking 22, but I might go with 24. I'll also make the DC for purposes of counting be based on the active cost of the power. So someone with 90 active points in an AP AF EB will have purchased a DC of 18 for purposes of calculating how much SPD they are allowed.

The formula was always based on the Active Points, not the Real Points. My apologies if I didn't make that clear.