calling probability whizzes

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Realms of Chaos

Well the first won't happen at all, because if a SPD 4 character got the first four segments the SPD 8 character would have got them too. In fact, lower speed characters will NEVER get more phases than higher speed character, however they're still more likely to get more phases than their actual SPD score than higher SPD characters are (and more likely to get less).

 

In a superheroic campaign sure, it's a problem. In a realistic campain, tough, that's the breaks. Life isn't fair. Yes, it's possible for low SPD characters to get no actions in a turn at all, but it won't happen very often, and even when it does, it's perfectly normal in real combat for less competent individuals to blunder around not doing anything useful because things are simply moving too fast for them!

Okay, so it's one roll per segment. Okidokes. I still don't like it.

[Mark Taylor]

Originally posted by Agent X

Okay, so it's one roll per segment. Okidokes. I still don't like it.

 

I ain't askin' ya to. As I previously implied I wouldn't use it in preference to the method Netzilla suggested myself. At least that ensures that everybody gets the number of actions in each turn that they should.

[AnotherSkip]

Actually I have to disagree with the assumption that superheroic battles go faster than heroic. Several battles i have been in in Heroic level games last a turn or less. (150 pointer , few mgl items).

While several superheroic battles (especially "bosses") often last several turns.

[caris]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: calling probability whizzes

 

Originally posted by Realms of Chaos

Well actually I addessed it well before you wrote that. The opening words of the first post of mime to which you responded were "Assuming the die rolled is a D12". How much more directly could I address it?

 

By actually discussing in that first post that how going to a smaller or a higher dice affects the probability, which is what you did in a post while I was writing the one you are quoting.

[caris]

Originally posted by AnotherSkip

Actually I have to disagree with the assumption that superheroic battles go faster than heroic. Several battles i have been in in Heroic level games last a turn or less. (150 pointer , few mgl items).

While several superheroic battles (especially "bosses") often last several turns.

 

Actually, I think that Realms is right in is assumption that the random die roll method would have a greater impact on a super-heroic game over a heroic game, but I think that the reason is that you generally get a greater "spread" (or at least have the potential for a greater "spread") in a super-heroic game. The greates spread I've seen in a heroic level game was a low of 3 with a high of 7, but 3/6 and 4/6 have been much more common putting the range of possible rolls where one can go but the other can't at 2/3 with an extreme of 4. In a super hero game the greatest extreme I saw was a 3 brick speed 9 speedster, with 3/7, 4/7 being the most common, which puts the ranges at 3/4 for the common and 6 at the extreme. Those are significant changes to the probabilities.

[caris]

Recovery issues?

 

Just noticed another aspect of the system that is going to have an interesting effect on the whole thing. There is no post segment 12 recovery. Characters get a free recovery only on a roll of a 1, that could seriously impact how characters should are built. Charges and Reduced END are going to become more desirable, because you can not be sure of how many recoveries you get or when you get them. Yes, in the long run it all smooth evens out (assuming a D12 is used), but the extremes and their impact do have to be considered.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Realms of Chaos

I ain't askin' ya to. As I previously implied I wouldn't use it in preference to the method Netzilla suggested myself. At least that ensures that everybody gets the number of actions in each turn that they should.

I knew you weren't asking me too. Aaaah, nice to talk to you off the NGD boards

[Mark Taylor]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: calling probability whizzes

 

Originally posted by caris

By actually discussing in that first post that how going to a smaller or a higher dice affects the probability, which is what you did in a post while I was writing the one you are quoting.

 

I didn't need to discuss it, since I'd already stated I was assuming the use of a D12. Since I wouldn't use any other type of die, I'm not particularly interested in exploring how it affects things.

[Mark Taylor]

Originally posted by Agent X

I knew you weren't asking me too. Aaaah, nice to talk to you off the NGD boards

 

I'm involving myself more directly with HERO system stuff now since I have begun planning a Star HERO camgaign. Well "Robot HERO" actually, I posted a thread about it on this board while you were away.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10347

 

In case you want to take a look. I'll post more on it as I progress, but that stuff might be better on the Star HERO board. What do you think?

[Markdoc]

Hi Y'all,

 

Realms messaged me that all this was going on, so I felt maybe I should respond

 

First off, I'm intimately familiar with the stat.s - of course I ran the analysis before deciding to change things like this.

 

And yes, each roll is a segment.

 

I am well aware that even with a D12 it does not come out precisely the way it will using the chart. So the people who are arguing against a total match are right. OTOH, it is close enough for my purposes.

 

Secondly, it's also true that lower speed characters will NEVER get an action when a higher speed character cannot act - unless they hold an action. This to my mind, is one of the weaknesses of the system - perhaps the only significant one (at least to me).

 

OTOH, they're still more likely to get more phases than their actual SPD score compared to higher SPD characters, so that balances off - especially as you use a smaller die.

 

The rest of the charges are all true, M'lud But, uh, the point was that those changes are the way it was SUPPOSED to work.

 

I know that some people really like the structured SPD chart. Well, more power to you. I did too, for years. But after a while, it simply seemed too "wargamey" to me, and after a while my players got experienced enough to work the SPD chart in wierd ways. And when I played, I did the same.

 

I dunno, it just kind of left a sour taste.

 

So this is one alternative. Personally I like the randomness, which seems a little more realistic, and It IS faster - you can take my word for this. Both in my hands and those of others. If everyone watched the speed chart and remembered their held actions and so on, it probably wouldn't be. But as it stands, I don't need to track the SPD chart myself, only held actions, and that saves me a lot of time.

 

The other advantage is that it seems to hold the players' attention better and it's dead simple to teach.

 

But I am well aware it's not for everyone. My biggest concern was that it would downgrade the desirability of SPD, but just as before, the need for SPD was one of my players most pressing concerns, so it certainly has not had any appreciable effect on game balance - at least in my games and those I have played in, using this system.

 

It also effects the safety of maneuvers like haymaker and sweep, but abuse of those two was something I wanted to eradicate, so I count that as a plus.

 

So as final note: the system has been playtested by many GM's - at least a dozen, to my knowledge - over about 13 years. If you like the SPD chart by all means use it - it is the official way to play, after all. But if (like me) you find it oppressive, this is one simple and relatively robust way to avoid it - without messing with the character creation rules.

 

cheers, Mark

[Rebar]

... lower speed characters will NEVER get an action when a higher speed character cannot act - unless they hold an action...

 

Jeez. This one never even occurred to me. You're right, that's a significant change - and the most obvious - from the standard system. Can't believe I missed it.

 

YMMV, but IMO it is a change for the worse.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Markdoc

Secondly, it's also true that lower speed characters will NEVER get an action when a higher speed character cannot act - unless they hold an action. This to my mind, is one of the weaknesses of the system - perhaps the only significant one (at least to me).

 

This is easily fixed. Just give each character the same numbers as they would normally get with the speed chart when rolling the d12. For example, a speed 1 character would only go when a 7 is rolled. A spd 2 character would go when a 6 or 12 is rolled. A spd 3 character would go when a 4, 8, or 12 is rolled. Etc.

[Gary]

Some probabilities:

 

Spd 1

0 actions 35.2%

1 action 38.4%

2 actions 19.2%

3 actions 5.8%

4+ actions 1.4%

 

Spd 2

0 actions 11.2%

1 action 26.9%

2 actions 29.6%

3 actions 19.7%

4 actions 8.9%

5+ actions 3.6%

 

Spd 3

0 actions 3.2%

1 action 12.7%

2 actions 23.2%

3 actions 25.8%

4 actions 19.4%

5 actions 10.3%

6+ actions 5.4%

 

Spd 4

0-1 actions 5.4%

2 actions 12.7%

3 actions 21.2%

4 actions 23.8%

5 actions 19.1%

6 actions 11.1%

7+ actions 6.6%

 

Spd 5

0-2 actions 6.7%

3 actions 12.4%

4 actions 20.0%

5 actions 22.9%

6 actions 19.1%

7 actions 11.7%

8+ actions 7.3%

 

Spd 6

0-3 actions 7.3%

4 actions 12.1%

5 actions 19.3%

6 actions 22.6%

7 actions 19.3%

8 actions 12.1%

9+ actions 7.3%

 

Spd 7

0-4 actions 7.3%

5 actions 11.7%

6 actions 19.1%

7 actions 22.9%

8 actions 20.0%

9 actions 12.4%

10+ actions 6.7%

 

Spd 8

0-5 actions 6.6%

6 actions 11.1%

7 actions 19.1%

8 actions 23.8%

9 actions 21.2%

10 actions 12.7%

11+ actions 5.4%

 

Spd 9

0-6 actions 5.4%

7 actions 10.3%

8 actions 19.4%

9 actions 25.8%

10 actions 23.2%

11 actions 12.7%

12 actions 3.2%

 

Spd 10

0-7 actions 3.6%

8 actions 8.9%

9 actions 19.7%

10 actions 29.6%

11 actions 26.9%

12 actions 11.2%

 

Spd 11

0-8 actions 1.4%

9 actions 5.8%

10 actions 19.2%

11 actions 38.4%

12 actions 35.2%

 

Spd 12

12 actions 100%

[Markdoc]

>>> This is easily fixed. Just give each character the same numbers as they would normally get with the speed chart when rolling the d12. For example, a speed 1 character would only go when a 7 is rolled. A spd 2 character would go when a 6 or 12 is rolled. A spd 3 character would go when a 4, 8, or 12 is rolled. Etc.<<<

 

That would work, I think. One of my players suggested it long ago, but I have never tried it, since the "problem" with slower characters has never actually led to in-game problems - it's more a theoretical consideration.

 

In the last session, I got an good example of why I like the random system, though.

One player said something like:

"If we ambush them, we can probably cut the scouts down and then run for cover before their archers even get a chance to fire"

 

Note he didn't say "We get a free action for surprise on 12, and they don't get to act until phase 4, so we can attack, get a recovery, and then full move into cover on 3 without risk"

 

In the event, they elected to hide and let the scouts pass by because of the *possibility* of getting fired on. I like that.

 

I realise others may not. Ya pays ya money and takes ya chances.

 

cheers, Mark

[Netzilla]

Another variation on this idea that I've been knocking around is as follows:

 

Start of Combat

The start of combat remains unchanged. All combats will begin with a Segment 12 in which all characters (except those with Speed 1) may act.

 

Random Determination of Segments

During each Post Segment 12, each player will roll a number of d12 (referred to as Segment Dice hereafter) equal to their character's Speed score. The numbers on the dice will determine in which segments their character will be able to act.

 

Duplicate Numbers

If a character rolls the same segment number on 2 or more dice, one of those dice grants that character an action on the segment listed on the die. The duplicate(s) may be turned in for Wild Card chips (represented by blue poker chips). A Wild Card chip may be used to get an action in any segment in which the character has not already acted. In most respects, this acts the same as having a held action. The exceptions are: 1) it is not lost if it is not used by your next action and 2) if more than one Wild Card chip is held past Segment 12 the number of Segment Dice you roll for your character is reduced by 1 for each additional chip.

 

Changing Speeds

If your character's speed increases during the turn, you may immediately roll an additional Segment Die. If the result is a duplicate of a segment already rolled for your character (even if that segment has already passed), you may trade it in for a Wild Card chip. If the result is not a duplicate and for a segment that has already passed, it is immediately discarded and not rerolled. If the result is for an upcoming segment (or the current segment if your character has not already acted & does not have an action for this segment) and not a duplicate, the result is added to your existing segments.

 

If your character's speed decreases during the turn, your must discard in any unused Wild Card chips. If your character has no Wild Card chips, then an unused Segment die must be discarded.

 

My main thinking with this version is that it prevents the situation that faster characters *always* act on the same segments as any slower characters. My main concern is that it may be too much complication for too little effect.

 

I wonder if I can talk my group into trying it.

[The Souljourner]

I think it *has* to use the speed chart, otherwise you change the way speed works dramatically. Using d12 = current phase is a nice way to prevent overplanning by the players, but still allows the same distribution of segments, same people going on the same phase, etc. You have to decide when recoveries come around... personally I'd just say "everyone gets a recovery after 12 rolls of the die". That's the kind of thing that probably shouldn't be random.

 

-Nate

[BlackSword]

Originally posted by Netzilla

Another variation on this idea that I've been knocking around is as follows:

 

Start of Combat

The start of combat remains unchanged. All combats will begin with a Segment 12 in which all characters (except those with Speed 1) may act.

 

Random Determination of Segments

During each Post Segment 12, each player will roll a number of d12 (referred to as Segment Dice hereafter) equal to their character's Speed score. The numbers on the dice will determine in which segments their character will be able to act.

It also means you can get some use out of those d12s in your dice bag .

 

I like both suggestions from netzilla, either picking numbers out of a hate, or rolling a dice for each point of SPD. Though I doubt our group will go to random turns, its a neat idea to keep in mind. I like the radomization of order, but I don't like radomizing the number of actions one might get in a turn.

[Rebar]

...picking numbers out of a hate...

 

"#%&!@ you scum!! I'll show you, you worthless %*@%!

How about a nice 12!

What do you think of that, eh!!!"

[Netzilla]

Originally posted by Rebar

"#%&!@ you scum!! I'll show you, you worthless %*@%!

How about a nice 12!

What do you think of that, eh!!!"

 

Hey, hey! No making me laugh while I'm at work!

[caris]

Originally posted by Markdoc

In the last session, I got an good example of why I like the random system, though.

One player said something like:

"If we ambush them, we can probably cut the scouts down and then run for cover before their archers even get a chance to fire"

 

Note he didn't say "We get a free action for surprise on 12, and they don't get to act until phase 4, so we can attack, get a recovery, and then full move into cover on 3 without risk"

 

One question Mark, how would your player have known that the target archers were Speed 3, and not 4? Had he fought these particular archers before?