END cost issues (Duplication and Summon and Usable Simultaneously)

[unclevlad]

Something that's never been clear to me...

 

Let's assign a Summon 500 point critter (100 points), x2 critters.  So it's 105 points, 10 END.  My take is I can, with one action, summon 2 critters.  Question is:  what's the END cost to do so, 10 for the whole shebang, or 20...10 for each?

 

Similarly with Duplication.

Case 1:  I buy x2 duplicates but NOT Rapid Duplication.  I spend the full phase to create both of em.  10 END or 20 END?

Case 2:  I buy x2 duplicates and Rapid Duplication...so it's now up to 131 active, so technically it's 13 END.  So if I want to summon them both as a half phase action, what's the END cost, 13 or 26?

 

Now, with Usable Simultaneously.  Let's take Teleport, with Usable Simultaneously (up to 8 people at once, Grantor controls the power totally, Grantor pays the END cost).  For the sake of argument, say the END cost for the power is 4.  So when activated, as I read it...the teleporter has to pay 4 END per person being teleported.  So 8 people, 32 END.  This seems correct simply because there *is* a specific "Grantor pays the END" option, and it lowers the overall value of the advantage.

 

It only seems fair to say, yeah, the END cost for a Summon is per critter, but it's not clear.

[Jhamin]

This is a case where various things work mostly the same but have slightly different specifics, making it hard to use one to infer for another.

Summon is an instant power.  There is no listed limit on how many beings can be summoned at once in Champions Complete.  You pay End once to turn it on (summoning however many things you paid for summon to callup) and then you are done.  As I read it, If the power is bought to summon 2 things for 10 end, you turn the power on and it summons 2 things for 10 End. 

If you bought it to summon 1000 things for 20 end, then that is what you get when you turn it on, and you pay 20 end.

Duplication is a persistent power, so you need to pay End to turn it on and then every phase you keep it on.  It specifically says it takes a half phase action to summon a duplicate, so summoning 2 takes a full phase, but the power is either on or off.  You aren't paying End per duplicate, you are paying End per phase the power is on.
In your Case 1, you spend 10 End on the phase you turn the power on and spend both your half phases to summon them both.  10 End
In your Case 2, you spend 13 End on the phase you turn the power on and spend a half phase to summon them both (leaving a half phase for something else).  13 End

Teleportation with Usable Simultaneously (P 120 of Champions Complete) doesn't work the way you describe.  Usable Simultaneously means the Recipient controls the power and pays End.
What you are describing is much closer to Usable as Attack (Als0 P120) Grantor controls power, granter pays End, there writeup on P 120 doesn't allow you to hand it out to more than one person, but I'd probably allow it if that was how you wanted to build your power. The Usable as an Attack is important to how you should think about the power.  You are doing something presumably bad to a target, like blasting them or punching them.  As you pay End per blast or per punch, you also pay per teleport.
(Personally, I'd buy Teleport, Usable as Attack, Area of Effect and just teleport everyone in the AofE zone with one attack and one End Cost, but YMMV). 

Use Simultaneously (which you mention by name) lets you hand copies of the power out to others, who can then use it like it was their own (including paying End)

[Duke Bushido]

I probably shouldn't even attempt this:  I was going to bed when I thought "I'll check in here and ...."

 

At any rate, I hearken back to a line from one of the earliest rules editions- it's from 1 or 2 e; may even be in both of them.  I'm not clear-headed at the moment---

 

At any rate, there is a specific comment that a power with an advantage or a limitation is not "this power plus X" or "that power minus Y," but a whole new, unique power.

 

Applying that to adders- and specifically summon multiple creatures-- I am going to run with it, suggesting that your power is _not_ "summon a thing," and I can do it twice!," but is in fact "summon up to two things at once."  I mean, you can already use it twice, or three times, or as many times as you have Phases and suitable END.  Your power is unique because you can summon up to 2 each time, and this _singular, unique power_ costs 105 pts, so that when you use it to summon two things, you are paying the END for a 105-pt power, and are getting two things.

 

Similarly, when you summon 1 thing, I would suggest (though your GM may disagree) that you are still paying END for a 105pt power.

 

 

 

[unclevlad]

The major difference between Usable as Attack and Usable Simultaneously is, the latter requires willing subjects;  the former doesn't.

 

So with the teleporter, how do you build someone who can teleport himself and (let's say) 3 others who are willing, if not Usable Simultaneously?  And with what options, as the most common interpretation is, everyone goes along for the ride, and everyone arrives at the same destination at the same time.  Sure sounds like Grantor controls the power totally;  the question of paying the END is up in the air.  Usable as Attack is QUITE different.

 

Note too that in 6E1, that changing the UOO modifiers on UAA requires explicit GM permission;  this isn't the case with US. so US can clearly incorporate Grantor controls the power totally.

 

Duke:  I hear ya, and as of the last tweak, it's summon 8 of em.  And you *can* summon them 1 at a time or all 8 at once, no issue there.  But if he could summon all 8 at once for the one, single END cost, wow...is that cheap.  For a comparison, consider Autofire.  Lets you take multiple shots...but you're paying END for each one, whether you fire 1 or your max.