Aids and multipower

[migo2154]

Hi all!

I have a player in my game that has a multipower reserve with 3 Aid powers:

- Fixed Slot: Aid 3d6 STR, time limit: 1 minute.

- Fixed Slot: Aid 3d6 OCV, time limit: 1 minute.

- Fixed Slot: Aid 3d6 DCV, time limit: 1 minute.

Since this is a heroic game, all powers cannot pass 30 active cost, so that multipower reserve have 30 Active points too, and i know that multipower reserves limits how many points can be used with that powers, so, since all powers are fixed slots and have time limit, he cannot activates all powers simultaneously. But, how about activate the same time limit power multiple times?.

Can he, for example, use Aid OCV multiple times, and mantain it activated in him and his party simultaneously?.

[Hugh Neilson]

If I understand the question correctly, it's whether the character can (for example) Aid himself and another teammate for +18 STR, ++3 OCV and +1 DCV (as DCV is a defensive ability so adjustment powers are halved).

 

The answer to that question is "yes".  The effect of Aid is instant, and wears off with time (fade rate). Changing slots and/or using Aid on a different target does not cause prior Aids to vanish.

 

Of course, it likely took 12 phases (2 uses of each slot on each target) to maximize the Aid amounts.

[unclevlad]

Also, Time Limit is IMO being used improperly, unless there's more going on.  Aid has a lingering effect, but the fade rate is 5 points per turn.  Therefore, it'll be gone in 4 turns...less than a minute.  Time Limit as a Limitation is for powers that have no clear-cut termination point.  With Instants, that allows it to be applied to something like an Entangle.  Sure, it often won't last, but if the poor sot can't break out, it will.  

[migo2154]

14 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

If I understand the question correctly, it's whether the character can (for example) Aid himself and another teammate for +18 STR, ++3 OCV and +1 DCV (as DCV is a defensive ability so adjustment powers are halved).

 

The answer to that question is "yes".  The effect of Aid is instant, and wears off with time (fade rate). Changing slots and/or using Aid on a different target does not cause prior Aids to vanish.

 

Of course, it likely took 12 phases (2 uses of each slot on each target) to maximize the Aid amounts.

Ohh ok, so aids do not vanish when a slots change.

 

 

13 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Also, Time Limit is IMO being used improperly, unless there's more going on.  Aid has a lingering effect, but the fade rate is 5 points per turn.  Therefore, it'll be gone in 4 turns...less than a minute.  Time Limit as a Limitation is for powers that have no clear-cut termination point.  With Instants, that allows it to be applied to something like an Entangle.  Sure, it often won't last, but if the poor sot can't break out, it will.  

Mmm, then Aids cannot have time limit advantage?.

Well, his idea was to build a buff with a time limit, but without the fade rate... Is this possible?. Something like: I have +3 OCV for 1 minute, after that time, the buff vanishes.

[LoneWolf]

Time limit on an instant power allows it to be used again without having to activate it again.  It is only useful if there is something that makes activating the power difficult.  For example, if the power had a lengthy startup time or required using and expendable focus.  Time limit would allow you to use the power any time during its duration without taking the extra time or without having to use another use of your focus.  

 

If the Aids have limitations that are required to activate it, you can use the Aid without being restricted by those limitations. For example, if you had requires a skill roll and side effects on the Aid, you would not have to make the roll each time.  But if you switched to a different Aid, you could no longer activate the first Aid without going through the full preparation.  Any Aids you have still continue to function until the fade away.  Once you shift to another slot you can no longer use the first Aid on someone else without shifting to the original slot.  When you shift slots, you have to go through the full preparation each time.  Once you do that you can use that aid until the time limit goes out without going through the perorations or until you shift to a different Aid. 
 

[migo2154]

23 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

Time limit on an instant power allows it to be used again without having to activate it again.  It is only useful if there is something that makes activating the power difficult.  For example, if the power had a lengthy startup time or required using and expendable focus.  Time limit would allow you to use the power any time during its duration without taking the extra time or without having to use another use of your focus.  

 

If the Aids have limitations that are required to activate it, you can use the Aid without being restricted by those limitations. For example, if you had requires a skill roll and side effects on the Aid, you would not have to make the roll each time.  But if you switched to a different Aid, you could no longer activate the first Aid without going through the full preparation.  Any Aids you have still continue to function until the fade away.  Once you shift to another slot you can no longer use the first Aid on someone else without shifting to the original slot.  When you shift slots, you have to go through the full preparation each time.  Once you do that you can use that aid until the time limit goes out without going through the perorations or until you shift to a different Aid. 
 

Ahhh i understand. This not works as i thought then... 

Seems that what my player wants is more like a Boost than a Aid... But he will pay END every phase to mantain it.

[unclevlad]

Characteristics can be bought as powers.  You can simply buy +3 OCV.  It's already Persistent...so Time Limit is now a limitation...a large one.  If he wants to use it on himself only?  Then you're done.  If he wants to use it on others, you get into the complexities of that advantage.  

 

And what Lone Wolf noted is correct, when Time Limit is being used as an Advantage.  What I said is correct when it's being used as a Limitation.  

 

[Hugh Neilson]

Aid (and other adjustment powers) use the Delayed Return Rate to slow the fade rate.  It's a +1 advantage for Aid to fade at 5 points per minute.  As that's more useful than having it wink out after a minute, customizing the advantage to have it fade out entirely at 1 minute at +3/4 does not seem unreasonable.

 

3d6 Aid with +3/4 advantages is more than 30 AP, though.  18 x 1.75 = 31.5 rounds to 31, so not a huge difference, unless you are stuck on 15 AP as an absolute maximum..

 

As unclevlad suggests, he could just buy, say, with a 1 minute Time Limit (so -2 limitation).  That could be +15 STR, +3 OCV or +3 DCV Usable on 8 recipients (+1).  This now costs 0 END, can be used on multiple targets with one action and does not require any rolls.  The drawback is that switching the Multipower will shut off the characteristic granted, so he can only have one at a time.

 

He could purchase these outside any framework, though - +15 STR UoO (x8) = 30 AP, 1 minute time limit (-2) = 10 Real Points.  Add on the OCV and DCV powers and he pays 30 points for the entire set.

[migo2154]

2 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Characteristics can be bought as powers.  You can simply buy +3 OCV.  It's already Persistent...so Time Limit is now a limitation...a large one.  If he wants to use it on himself only?  Then you're done.  If he wants to use it on others, you get into the complexities of that advantage.  

 

And what Lone Wolf noted is correct, when Time Limit is being used as an Advantage.  What I said is correct when it's being used as a Limitation.  

 

 

2 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Aid (and other adjustment powers) use the Delayed Return Rate to slow the fade rate.  It's a +1 advantage for Aid to fade at 5 points per minute.  As that's more useful than having it wink out after a minute, customizing the advantage to have it fade out entirely at 1 minute at +3/4 does not seem unreasonable.

 

3d6 Aid with +3/4 advantages is more than 30 AP, though.  18 x 1.75 = 31.5 rounds to 31, so not a huge difference, unless you are stuck on 15 AP as an absolute maximum..

 

As unclevlad suggests, he could just buy, say, with a 1 minute Time Limit (so -2 limitation).  That could be +15 STR, +3 OCV or +3 DCV Usable on 8 recipients (+1).  This now costs 0 END, can be used on multiple targets with one action and does not require any rolls.  The drawback is that switching the Multipower will shut off the characteristic granted, so he can only have one at a time.

 

He could purchase these outside any framework, though - +15 STR UoO (x8) = 30 AP, 1 minute time limit (-2) = 10 Real Points.  Add on the OCV and DCV powers and he pays 30 points for the entire set.

Right, understood. Thank you very much! 

I'm affraid of allow them buy characteristics as powers because we are using characteristic maxima in this game, so he can't normally have more than 8 OCV, 8 DCV or 20 STR unless they uses some kind of temporal buff. But if he decides to make a power like: +6 OCV, 1 minute Time Limit (-2), that's legal in the because is not surpassing the 30 Points cap, But he will almost duplicate the maximun OCV, and adding CSL to that (he can buy up to +3 CSL) he will have 17 OCV, DCV, or 50 STR, and that's something that nobody, even the main villains, have.

I can, of course, tell him that he cannot do this and only buy characteristics until some limit. Have you faced this kind of situation in your games?, maybe is not as broken as i think?

3d6 Aid with a +3/4 advantage sounds very good. I could allow that too.

[unclevlad]

Ah, but you see, that's where campaign limits come into play.  It's legal under one aspect...but not ALL aspects by your campaign rules.  OR, use the rule related to Normal Characteristic Max...you can exceed them, but it costs DOUBLE.  Even if you buy them as powers.

 

But note that buying an Aid will also allow the base OCV to exceed NCM.  That means you'll want to examine it closely, and potentially not allow it...especially if the character has stuff like Fast Strike as a martial maneuver, which has +2 OCV.  

 

The rules are extremely flexible, but that also means, HIGHLY abusable.  Things like "30 AP for powers" includes a 2d6 HKA...which can be improved with martial maneuvers, or Weaponsmaster, or Deadly Blow.  I tend to worry somewhat less about power APs, and more about damage classes *overall* with whatever they're doing.  Focusing only on APs can create tunnel vision.  You want to look at the final result, which has broader implications.

[Hugh Neilson]

Seconded, unclevlad.  Back in the lead-up to 6e, I recall a SETAC discussion on AP limits.  Steve Long was a bit surprised as he noted that there are no rules on limiting APs in 5e, nor would there be in 6e.

 

Some high AP abilities (often with a lot of limitations) are quite manageable and good in specific games, while very low AP abilities can become game-breaking.  "+6 OCV and DCV" added to the campaign average, much less maximum, would fit that latter description quite well.  Even +3 over campaign maximum would be a huge shift.  When the campaign norm is CV 7, there's a 40 point "character tax" over a campaign norm of CV 3.

[migo2154]

13 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Ah, but you see, that's where campaign limits come into play.  It's legal under one aspect...but not ALL aspects by your campaign rules.  OR, use the rule related to Normal Characteristic Max...you can exceed them, but it costs DOUBLE.  Even if you buy them as powers.

 

But note that buying an Aid will also allow the base OCV to exceed NCM.  That means you'll want to examine it closely, and potentially not allow it...especially if the character has stuff like Fast Strike as a martial maneuver, which has +2 OCV.  

 

The rules are extremely flexible, but that also means, HIGHLY abusable.  Things like "30 AP for powers" includes a 2d6 HKA...which can be improved with martial maneuvers, or Weaponsmaster, or Deadly Blow.  I tend to worry somewhat less about power APs, and more about damage classes *overall* with whatever they're doing.  Focusing only on APs can create tunnel vision.  You want to look at the final result, which has broader implications.

Ohh i see... So i must set a campaign limit. I got it
 

55 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Seconded, unclevlad.  Back in the lead-up to 6e, I recall a SETAC discussion on AP limits.  Steve Long was a bit surprised as he noted that there are no rules on limiting APs in 5e, nor would there be in 6e.

 

Some high AP abilities (often with a lot of limitations) are quite manageable and good in specific games, while very low AP abilities can become game-breaking.  "+6 OCV and DCV" added to the campaign average, much less maximum, would fit that latter description quite well.  Even +3 over campaign maximum would be a huge shift.  When the campaign norm is CV 7, there's a 40 point "character tax" over a campaign norm of CV 3.

Yes, this is true, i don't have problems with, for example, drains. But things like "characteristics as powers" or "power defenses" were giving me nightmares because are very cheap and my players can buy so mucho with 30ap. 

But, anyway, thank you very much!, i will do that