House Rule: EGO Link

[Killer Shrike]

Thinking about this a bit more, Speed Of Thought () would be an advantage for all Non-Attack powers and a limitation for all Attack Powers.

 

For Non Attack Powers its a +1/4, for Attack Powers its a -1/4.

 

IMO....

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

Thinking about this a bit more, Speed Of Thought () would be an advantage for all Non-Attack powers and a limitation for all Attack Powers.

 

For Non Attack Powers its a +1/4, for Attack Powers its a -1/4.

This can cause you to run into the Basic Rule of Limitations, though. If all of the character's movement has Speed of Thought on it, then he's getting the Limitation on his attack powers, even though it doesn't really hinder him anymore. Also, if you apply this as an Advantage on movement powers, you're still essentially making an EGO-based character pay for an effect that DEX-based characters get for free.

 

It just seems a lot simpler to me to say, "characters can use either their DEX or their EGO as the 'action' CHA for any given power" and let it go at that.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth

This can cause you to run into the Basic Rule of Limitations, though. If all of the character's movement has Speed of Thought on it, then he's getting the Limitation on his attack powers, even though it doesn't really hinder him anymore.

It hinders him the same; he's just paid extra (by applying the advantage to his movement at additional cost) to offset the hindering. He will pay more END for his Speed of Thought movement (and other non-Attacks). And unless the character has also applied Speed of Thought to his STR as a NPA at a +1/4 Advantage there are still things he can't do in conjunction with his SoT Attacks.

 

 

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth

Also, if you apply this as an Advantage on movement powers, you're still essentially making an EGO-based character pay for an effect that DEX-based characters get for free.

The DEX based character isnt getting it for free; he's getting it at 3:1. The EGO based character is getting it for 2:1, and granted DEX does other things, but chances are a high-EGO character doesnt care anyway because they likely arent set up to need DEX.

 

 

Here's 2 sample characters, one w/ a 20 EGO and the other w/ a 20 DEX using the +1/4 Non Attack -1/4 Attack setup.

 

The EGO boy is cheaper for the same initiative order, but can only fly & shoot & grow big (but not actually do anything physical w/ his extra STR) at EGO initiative. However to Fly at 20 "initiative" only cost him 45 points even with the advantage, but it cost the DEX based character 50 points to do the same thing.

 

---

Player: Speed of Thought Guy

 

Val Char Cost

10/25 STR 0

10 DEX 0

10 CON 0

10/13 BODY 0

10 INT 0

20 EGO 20

10 PRE 0

10 COM 0

 

2 PD 0

2 ED 0

2 SPD 0

4 REC 0

20 END 0

20/23 STUN 0

 

6" RUN 0

2" SWIM 0

2"/5" LEAP 0

Characteristics Cost: 20

 

Cost Power

25 Flight 10", Speed of Thought (+1/4) (25 Active Points)

19 Growth (+15 STR, +3 BODY, +3 STUN, -3" KB, 798 kg, -2 DCV, +2 PER Rolls to perceive character, 4 m tall, 2 m wide), Speed of Thought (+1/4) (19 Active Points)

32 EB 8d6 (vs. ED) (40 Active Points); Speed of Thought (-1/4)

Powers Cost: 76

 

Total Character Cost: 96

 

Base Points: 50

Experience Required: 46

Total Experience Available: 0

Experience Unspent: 0

---

 

Player: Non Speed of Thought Guy

 

Val Char Cost

10/25 STR 0

20 DEX 30

10 CON 0

10/13 BODY 0

10 INT 0

10 EGO 0

10 PRE 0

10 COM 0

 

2 PD 0

2 ED 0

3 SPD 0

4 REC 0

20 END 0

20/23 STUN 0

 

6" RUN 0

2" SWIM 0

2"/5" LEAP 0

Characteristics Cost: 30

 

Cost Power

20 Flight 10"

15 Growth (+15 STR, +3 BODY, +3 STUN, -3" KB, 798 kg, -2 DCV, +2 PER Rolls to perceive character, 4 m tall, 2 m wide)

40 EB 8d6 (vs. ED)

Powers Cost: 75

 

Total Character Cost: 105

 

Base Points: 50

Experience Required: 55

Total Experience Available: 0

Experience Unspent: 0

---

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

The DEX based character isnt getting it for free; he's getting it at 3:1. The EGO based character is getting it for 2:1

Only if he lets his SPD round down. Assuming he doesn't, then they're both ultimately paying the same. Your example characters have a huge difference: non-SOT-guy has a 3 SPD, while SOT-guy only has a 2. Unless their SPDs are the same, they're not really comparable. And if you make SOT-guy's SPD 3, then SOT-guy ends up being one point more expensive... not nine points less.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth

Only if he lets his SPD round down. Assuming he doesn't, then they're both ultimately paying the same. Your example characters have a huge difference: non-SOT-guy has a 3 SPD, while SOT-guy only has a 2. Unless their SPDs are the same, they're not really comparable. And if you make SOT-guy's SPD 3, then SOT-guy ends up being one point more expensive... not nine points less.

Hmm...good point.

 

I just cant get around the fact that this seems like a flaw for an attack power however, unless everything else a character has goes off of EGO too.

 

It basically sounds like you would let a character simply decide to be EGO or DEX based from the get go, as with a +0 modifier there is nothing preventing it.....

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

It basically sounds like you would let a character simply decide to be EGO or DEX based from the get go, as with a +0 modifier there is nothing preventing it.....

Yes, with the sole caveat that there must still be reasonable justification for the special effects. For example, it's hard to imagine how someone might define their personal Running as being EGO Linked/Speed of Thought. But other than that, yes... a character could be entirely or almost entirely DEX or EGO-based for no cost.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

I just cant get around the fact that this seems like a flaw for an attack power however, unless everything else a character has goes off of EGO too.

 

It basically sounds like you would let a character simply decide to be EGO or DEX based from the get go, as with a +0 modifier there is nothing preventing it.....

 

The more I consider it, the more I'm coming to Derek's viewpoint. There are benefits, but also costs. Presumably, as with the optional rule for mental powers, the character could choose to go later in the phase in order to combine mental and physical actions.

 

While buying up Ego rather than DEX (or, more realistically, not having to buy up both) may have some advantages, the Ego Link character will also have a poor DCV, as his DEX will be lower.

 

Overall, I think it's indifferent to mildly disadvantageous - not limited enough for better rthan a -0, but not good enough to support an advantage.

 

Derek, assuming this is implemented in your campaign, please keep us posted on how it goes.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Presumably, as with the optional rule for mental powers, the character could choose to go later in the phase in order to combine mental and physical actions.

Yes, absolutely.

Derek, assuming this is implemented in your campaign, please keep us posted on how it goes.

Oh, it's been implemented in my campaigns for about eight years. I just like to bring it up periodically to see if anyone can poke a hitherto unforeseen hole in the underlying logic.

 

It works fine. It certainly hasn't been abused... if anything, it's been underused.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth

But here's the problem...

 

Mageboy

11	DEX	3
20	EGO	20
4	SPD	19

50 Fire Bolt Spell: 8d6 Energy Blast, EGO Link (+1/4)

92 Total Cost

 

Energyboy

20	DEX	30
11	EGO	2
4	SPD	10

40 Firey Blast: 8d6 Energy Blast

82 Total Cost

 

These two characters are functionally identical. Why should Mageboy have to pay more points to be able to do exactly the same thing as Energyboy?

 

However, the character who desires to move on EGO is going to more likely be a mentalist who has already bought his EGO up and doesn't want or need DEX. For -0 he can ensure that ALL his powers operate on his bought-up (and less expensive) EGO intiative - from running (TK: self) to DCV (clouds mens mnds). -0 seems generous for the more "typical" (speculatively) uses.

 

Unless you just want mentalists to be stronger than they are now.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth

Yes, with the sole caveat that there must still be reasonable justification for the special effects. For example, it's hard to imagine how someone might define their personal Running as being EGO Linked/Speed of Thought. But other than that, yes... a character could be entirely or almost entirely DEX or EGO-based for no cost.

 

Funny you say that - see my example.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by zornwil

However, the character who desires to move on EGO is going to more likely be a mentalist who has already bought his EGO up and doesn't want or need DEX.

And the character who desires to move on DEX is going to be more likely to be a non-mentalist who has already bought his DEX up and doesn't want or need EGO.

For -0 he can ensure that ALL his powers operate on his bought-up (and less expensive) EGO intiative

As has been pointed out numerous times, EGO is not less expensive than DEX unless you allow your SPD to round down. How many characters do you run across, in any game, at any power level, who allow their SPD to round down?

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth

And the character who desires to move on DEX is going to be more likely to be a non-mentalist who has already bought his DEX up and doesn't want or need EGO.

As has been pointed out numerous times, EGO is not less expensive than DEX unless you allow your SPD to round down. How many characters do you run across, in any game, at any power level, who allow their SPD to round down?

 

In addition to the cost (non)issue, it is noteworthy that the character who bases all of his powers on EGO, and therefore leaves his DEX fairly low, is going to be much easier to hit by most opponents.

 

Captain Combat, with his 30 DEX and 15 EGO, will have a 10 DCV, 5 vs mental attacks. Note that EGO linked powers will still be striking at his DCV 10, but using OCV based on the attacker's ego, if I understand Derek's system correctly.

 

Mr. Mind, with his 30 EGO and 15 DEX, will have a 10 DCV agaunst mental attacks, but a 5 DCV against other attacks, again including other characters' ego linked powers.

 

With the exception of egoists, who generally don't target other egoists (since they pretty much always have mental defense anyway), Mr. Mind is pretty much always easier to hit if he ego links all his powers and leaves his DEX low.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Note that EGO linked powers will still be striking at his DCV 10, but using OCV based on the attacker's ego, if I understand Derek's system correctly.

You are correct, sir!

Mr. Mind is pretty much always easier to hit if he ego links all his powers and leaves his DEX low.

And this may explain why I said I thought the option had actually been underutilized, if anything. At least in supers games, characters often bought a fairly high DEX anyway, just for the DCV benefits. The utility of EGO Link is more apparent in a fantasy game, because it allows aged wizards to be competitive without having to buy their DEX up beyond their character concept.

[Killer Shrike]

I think Im going to provisionally give this a try in my Machtig campaign, though a few of my players may lynch me since we are well past the character creation point.

 

The only hesitation I have is a I built many spells with "Delayed Phase" to build in a better opportunity for spell disruption. I suppose I could just have Delayed Phase work off of half-EGO for an EGO based character without too much trouble then.

 

More seriously is that many spells have gestures, and by your method they would still have to wait for their DEX to do the gestures. I might wave this as well, otherwise about 75% of the spells in the game wouldnt be able to work with it anyway.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth

And the character who desires to move on DEX is going to be more likely to be a non-mentalist who has already bought his DEX up and doesn't want or need EGO.

As has been pointed out numerous times, EGO is not less expensive than DEX unless you allow your SPD to round down. How many characters do you run across, in any game, at any power level, who allow their SPD to round down?

 

But I think the point is that mentalists are engaging in a form of combat that fewer enemies have defenses against and is virtually a warning sign by itself. So by expanding their abilities to act on DEX initiative they become more powerful than they were as in most cases they will move at a lower initiative, regardless of who has bought speed up.

 

EDIT - as I think about it, I think I am saying in a very long-winded way that your -0 works in some campaigns but not others. I don't think -0 is a good "default" value, or, if it is, it's probably in something like Fantasy which I never play.

 

another EDIT/PS - saw your comment re Fantasy. So maybe we're closer on this than it might appear.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

In addition to the cost (non)issue, it is noteworthy that the character who bases all of his powers on EGO, and therefore leaves his DEX fairly low, is going to be much easier to hit by most opponents.

 

Captain Combat, with his 30 DEX and 15 EGO, will have a 10 DCV, 5 vs mental attacks. Note that EGO linked powers will still be striking at his DCV 10, but using OCV based on the attacker's ego, if I understand Derek's system correctly.

 

Mr. Mind, with his 30 EGO and 15 DEX, will have a 10 DCV agaunst mental attacks, but a 5 DCV against other attacks, again including other characters' ego linked powers.

 

With the exception of egoists, who generally don't target other egoists (since they pretty much always have mental defense anyway), Mr. Mind is pretty much always easier to hit if he ego links all his powers and leaves his DEX low.

 

I agree with this, absolutely.

 

But don't you think that's a built-in game balance? So why should the mentalist have his initiative penatly offset for no cost?

[Cardinal]

Re: House Rule: EGO Link

 

Arise dead thread and do my bidding!!!

 

Thanks to DH for pointing me in the direction of this thread in answer to one of my questions. This is exactly the sort of discussion I was looking for.

 

I think Im going to provisionally give this a try in my Machtig campaign, though a few of my players may lynch me since we are well past the character creation point.

 

The only hesitation I have is a I built many spells with "Delayed Phase" to build in a better opportunity for spell disruption. I suppose I could just have Delayed Phase work off of half-EGO for an EGO based character without too much trouble then.

 

More seriously is that many spells have gestures, and by your method they would still have to wait for their DEX to do the gestures. I might wave this as well, otherwise about 75% of the spells in the game wouldnt be able to work with it anyway.

 

KS -

 

Did you implement this in your game? Did it work well? Any unforeseen glitches?

 

Has anyone else used this sort of rule in their game? What was the impact on balance?

 

I generally agree with DH that it should be a +0 Adv to choose Ego over Dex to base the attack mainly for the reasons given (EGO is the same cost as dex, they still have to deal with a crappy DCV, no Dex rolls, etc.). However, I am curious as to real life (if that can be used in the context of a RP game) impact of this rule.

 

Thanks

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: House Rule: EGO Link

 

As I mentioned upthread, I've used it in all my campaigns for over 10 years now, and it's never unbalanced anything. If anything, it's been underused.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: House Rule: EGO Link

 

Arise dead thread and do my bidding!!!

 

KS -

 

Did you implement this in your game? Did it work well? Any unforeseen glitches?

No. As I recall I threw it out as an idea but the group of the time was disinterested in it.