GMs decide - "entangle escape" decision

[Oruncrest]

Originally posted by KA.

Caped Crusader,

Your argument does not appear to hold water.

 

Don't hand Caped Crusader that pail just yet. You might need it yourself.

 

Imagine if I said that I wanted to play someone with a multi-function Gun. I save a bunch of points by buying it as an OAF, and I put all of my powers into it. The only power I don't put in it, is an automatic grappling hook that will automatically snatch it back if anyone tries to take it from me.

Well, if you can't take it away from me, it isn't an Accessible Focus anymore, is it?

 

Yes, it still is. Just because Gunboy has an 'automatic grappling hook' doesn't mean that he'll automatically get his gun back.

 

First the power that the 'automatic grappling hook' simulates has to roll to hit the weapon after it's been snatched, at -2 OCV I might add (suprise will help him that first time, but the next time the initial graber gets that weapon again, Gunboy can forget it).

 

Next, the SFX of the 'automatic grappling hook' suggest that a STR<>STR roll will be required (if the power was teleportation, I'd just rule that the grappling hook has a STR equal to the Active Points in the power). If the 'automatic grappling hook' wins, all's well and good for Gunboy. If not, tough luck.

 

Finally, if Gunboy didn't (or can't) see where the gun went, he's out of luck

 

Basically, all the 'automatic grappling hook' does is give Gunboy a chance to regain his weapon immediatly after losing it. And since it can be lost, it's Accessible. Your example doesn't hold water (bail, KA, bail).

 

Now that KA's battleship has been sunk, let's look at Caped Crusader's Construction: A 1"TP with multiple levels of Armor Piercing, 0 END, and triggered, with the limitation only vs. entagles & bindings. What? No Grabs? Uh Ohhh...

 

Now this 'power's stated purpose is to get around attacks that would prevent him from gesturing (which is a limitation on his VPP). It's good against your basic entangle, but not against Area Effect entangles, and might not work against a spread entangle (depending on the GM). It certainly wouldn't work against a Mental Paralysis attack. And adding Clinging to the mix would ensure that the Mage couldn't teleport out of it. Still, these four soulutions are a bit on the extreme side and wouldn't come up very often, if at all.

 

In my opinion, the question isn't whether CC's abusing the 'Gestures' Limitation, but whether this workaround is in character, given the Mage's experiences in the game. Has the Mage been grabbed, gooped, tied, frozen, and/or webbed up often enough for him to believe this is necessary? Has his (wise old?) mentor explained to the mage the perils of being entangled and that he should find a way to work around it? If not, then he shouldn't have the 'escape clause' just yet. Let the Mage find out for himself just how annoying entangles can be before attempting to come up with solutions instead of trying to solve a potential nonproblem.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Caped Crusader

Actually, Z, the levels of Armor Piercing on the Teleport get around (through?) that Teleport Block...

 

Ah, I see. Well, I'd probably just rule based on SFX given you've got 2 powers that are essentially the unstoppable force and the immovable object.

[KA.]

Originally posted by Oruncrest

Don't hand Caped Crusader that pail just yet. You might need it yourself.

 

 

 

Yes, it still is. Just because Gunboy has an 'automatic grappling hook' doesn't mean that he'll automatically get his gun back.

 

First the power that the 'automatic grappling hook' simulates has to roll to hit the weapon after it's been snatched, at -2 OCV I might add (suprise will help him that first time, but the next time the initial graber gets that weapon again, Gunboy can forget it).

 

Next, the SFX of the 'automatic grappling hook' suggest that a STR<>STR roll will be required (if the power was teleportation, I'd just rule that the grappling hook has a STR equal to the Active Points in the power). If the 'automatic grappling hook' wins, all's well and good for Gunboy. If not, tough luck.

 

Finally, if Gunboy didn't (or can't) see where the gun went, he's out of luck

 

Basically, all the 'automatic grappling hook' does is give Gunboy a chance to regain his weapon immediatly after losing it. And since it can be lost, it's Accessible. Your example doesn't hold water (bail, KA, bail).

 

Now that KA's battleship has been sunk, let's look at Caped Crusader's Construction: A 1"TP with multiple levels of Armor Piercing, 0 END, and triggered, with the limitation only vs. entagles & bindings. What? No Grabs? Uh Ohhh...

 

Now this 'power's stated purpose is to get around attacks that would prevent him from gesturing (which is a limitation on his VPP). It's good against your basic entangle, but not against Area Effect entangles, and might not work against a spread entangle (depending on the GM). It certainly wouldn't work against a Mental Paralysis attack. And adding Clinging to the mix would ensure that the Mage couldn't teleport out of it. Still, these four soulutions are a bit on the extreme side and wouldn't come up very often, if at all.

 

In my opinion, the question isn't whether CC's abusing the 'Gestures' Limitation, but whether this workaround is in character, given the Mage's experiences in the game. Has the Mage been grabbed, gooped, tied, frozen, and/or webbed up often enough for him to believe this is necessary? Has his (wise old?) mentor explained to the mage the perils of being entangled and that he should find a way to work around it? If not, then he shouldn't have the 'escape clause' just yet. Let the Mage find out for himself just how annoying entangles can be before attempting to come up with solutions instead of trying to solve a potential nonproblem.

 

Oruncrest,

You made a very convincing argument.

 

Which is not very hard when you are conducting both sides of it.

 

I deliberately failed to provide any SFX for the Automatic Grappling Hook, since it was just an example of something that could automatically snatch back a gun.

 

Based on your coming up with a definition of it that does not work very well, you did a great job of defeating yourself.

 

Congratulations?

 

What if I bought it as something totally "unfair", like a Teleport, built into the Gun itself, with a single Fixed Location of "My Holster" and a Trigger defined as "When Grabbed", and the SFX were a "Grappling Hook" that snatched the gun back automatically when stolen?

(Oh, and by the way, I'll add several levels of AP on it, so that nothing can hold it.) Sounds like I am trying to get points for nothing, doesn't it?

 

Anyway, your attack on my position has nothing to do with the original question posed.

 

Now, if you were the GM in the campaign Caped Crusader was playing in, and you stacked the deck in a similar way, I would have no worries about the T-Port power being abusive.

 

This does not appear to be the case.

 

What if a character's Force Field only works when the temperature exceeds 100 degrees, so he takes a Limitation on it.

But, he has also bought Change Environment, set up to keep the temperature above 100 degrees.

Would that still be a Limitation?

 

KA.

[KA.]

Caped Crusader,

First, please don't take any opinions I offer as any sort of attack on you, your intentions, or your worth as a human being.

 

I used to build characters all the time using "Focus" and "Only in Hero ID" on the same powers.

My thinking was,

"He needs the "Blaster Rifle" to be able to Energy Blast."

So it is a Focus.

But he can't use "Blaster Man's Blaster Rifle",

and not fully suit up as "Blaster Man",

without revealing his Secret ID.

So he should also get "OIHID".

 

Finally, someone on the boards explained that these two things overlap, and that you can't have both.

 

I don't think you are trying to "cheat", I think you have come up with something that seems very practical, but it does not meet my interpretation of the rules, or spirit, of the Hero system.

Again, this is just my personal opinion.

But that is what the thread seemed to be asking for.

 

Let's try to look at this another way.

 

I build a character that is a Spellcaster.

I say that he is a Photomage, and that his powers are Light Based.

I save points by saying that all of his powers have the following Limitation:

"Does not work in Normal Darkness -1/2"

 

Which is perfectly reasonable, until I buy another power, that does work in Normal Darkness:

 

Images: Only to create Light, No Range, Zero End.

(I think if costs about 11 points.)

 

Now, I have saved points by buying powers that don't work when it is dark, and I have made sure that it will never be dark around me.

 

And I don't have to worry about the "Darkness" power, since I defined my Limitation as "Normal Darkness".

 

Is there something wrong with that?

 

Try reading page 179 of Hero System 5th Ed.

 

See what you think.

 

If it still seems like your design is fair, and your GM has no problem with it, don't worry about it.

 

KA.

 

P.S. As far as characters in comics.

 

They are not built according to the rules of any game system, including the one that the Publisher may officially sanction. That is why it is hard to convert them.

 

How things are resolved also depends on the tone of your campaign.

 

If you are playing the "Adam West" version of Batman,

it makes perfect sense that when you are shot into a Shark Tank by a Giant Cannon,

you just happen to have a can of "Shark Repellent Bat Spray".

You have an instant, foolproof, solution to the problem.

 

But if you are playing a more "realistic" version of Batman, you have to figure out a way to use your wits, and a more limited set of equipment, to escape the situation.

 

What would your Mage do if he did get Entangled and didn't have his Escape spell?

Would you walk away from the table in frustration, or try to think of something clever?

 

Why not have him try to Dodge the Entangle when it is thrown?

Why not have him try to assess the risks before he gets into Combat? If there are enemies with Entangle, he should take them out first.

Why not have a fellow player "waste" a Phase getting him out? This could help to define the relationship between the two characters.

 

Part of the problem with the Escape spell, is that it takes away a lot of the "role playing" and "strategy" opportunities that exist when you have a character with a Limitation on their powers.

 

Just my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by KA.

What if a character's Force Field only works when the temperature exceeds 100 degress, so he takes a Limitation on it.

But, he has also bought Change Environment, set up to keep the temperature above 100 degrees.

Would that still be a Limitation?

 

Let's rewrite Neutron. All his powers are "Only in intense magnetic field (-2 Limitation), except Change Environment with No Range, Self Only to create an intense magnetic field.

 

Note that this is not the same as the proposed "Triggered Teleport". This makes it harder to snag the character, but not impossible. Grab him again, entangle him again, etc. and the Teleport won't happen since it hasn't had its trigger reset.

 

This isn't to say I would necessarily allow it, but it's not a sure fire way to defeat the limnitations on other abilities.

 

I'm also curious why the player feels he needs such an out. Gestures is a -1/4 limitation. How often is he being prevented from using his abilities due to this minor limitation that he feels the need to create this triggered teleport spell? If he instead has "activate 15-" for the same poihnt savings, his powers would work reliably about 95% of the time. If his Gestures are making his powers unworkable with significantly greater frequency, he should get a bigger limitation.

[Kzinbane]

Wow!

 

Well now, I did not expect my "simple" question to open such a proverbial can of worms!

We were laughing a bit about this spell yesterday during the game. They way it's written up is that if he gets in the team jet and straps in he'll port out at once. Could be bad if the thing were about to crash...

Anyhow I think I'm OK with it generally, and will have the spell work as directed Vs any physical entangles such as ropes, hand cuffs, blobs of capture foam and probably even somewhat more exotic things like energy webs or magical crimson bands.

If I do end up with someone that can entangle using some other form - say based on gravity or something then things will be tricky. Theoretically gravity restrains him right now and he's not porting around trying to escape the Earth's embrace (Gravity is a harsh mistress, after all).

In the end entangle is only a small part of what can happen. Yes he escapes them easily (I might add suspiciously easily) and yes it does strike me as dagerously close to the "save lots of points on limitation, spend a few on avoiding limitation" arguements I have seen. "my" villains are not generally stupid though. If it doesn't work they'll come up with something else. There are so many things one can do with the system that the entangle issue in the end is fairly minor.

I had a fairly un-super type with a very nice rifle and special bullets knock out the mage yesterday in one shot (much to his annoyance) - so what if an entangle won't work?

My villains live static lives outside of the game and learn and advance over time. Many of them rush to watch news footage of the heroes when they can, to get ideas on figthing style, what powers they exhibit, etc. Heck I have one that (give away to spellbinder) has made a point to interview most bad guys the supers have taken down. He's learned a LOT and aught to be interesting when and if he encounters them...

So Spellbinder/CapedCrusader... Entangle port will work most of the time. When things get dicey (no pun intended) such as with a gravity grab or something weird we'll figure something out. A dice roll for it to work or something.

After that #$*@#* roll needing a 1 on 1d6 to keep mental lock on the bad guy yesterday you can obviously rely on luck!

[KA.]

Kzinbane,

Hey, almost any question can turn into a heated debate. People take their Hero Rules pretty seriously around here, Pardner!

 

This horse looks to be in need of some Regeneration, but I do have a few more small comments, not just on this one power, but in general.

 

Be wary of "exceptions".

 

You don't want to make your players create characters that are exactly alike.

It stifles creativity, and makes the players feel out of touch with their Heroes.

But, you have to keep an eye on things getting too "different" too.

 

Unlike a fair number of GM's, I don't have some complex formula for "character effectiveness" that factors in OCV, DCV, Damage Classes, Special Defenses, etc. etc. etc.

(I fully respect those who do, I just don't have the patience for it.)

 

However, I am aware of problems that can crop up if you don't stick pretty close to the rules.

Part of the intent of the rules is "game balance", and if you get away from them, things can get out of control quickly, unless you have a really good handle on the ramifications.

 

Example: I don't have any set limit on Defenses, but I do keep an eye on them.

Why?

Let's say that most of your team is fairly normal (for Superheroes) and they have fairly Standard PD/ED (20/20).

One player wants to be "The Brick". He builds a character that is fairly slow, but has higher Defenses (30/30).

 

No real problem.

 

But, let's say that before play starts, he decides he wants to be a Power Armor guy. Still a Brick, but with a Focus.

He uses the extra points now available to boost his PD/ED up to 40/40, or even 50/50! And he can afford to buy a couple more points of SPD.

Now he is just as fast as everyone else, and has really high Defenses.

 

Now, you have two choices:

 

1) Ask him to cut back a little. Tell him that his Focus will be taken away from time to time, and that he should seriously consider buying some Martial Arts, External Weapons, or Something that will make him able to survive when the Armor is off.

 

2) Start ramping up the Villains, so that they can do Damage to him.

 

In the comics, you can have "The Detective" with 5 points of Body Armor, go around with "UberAlien" with 60/60 Hardened PD/ED and Full Damage Resistance.

 

The writer decides that the Villains always shoot the Howitzer at UberAlien, and their normal guns at The Detective.

 

But you can't always pull that off in a game.

 

Sooner or later, The Detective's player is going to have to fight the guy shooting the Howizer, and he is probably going to die.

 

If you let one player have Defenses that are way off the scale, and then you try to compensate by ramping up the Villains' attacks, you can find yourself in the embarrassing position of either killing a character for no good reason, or having to have a villain "refuse" to shoot the person who is right in his face.

 

It is true that a "good" GM can handle pretty much any problem that comes along in his campaign.

 

But a "wise" GM, heads off problems before they get started.

 

KA.

[Kzinbane]

The mix

 

My group is only 4 people right now, one (me) GM. Given the fairly low numbers I thougt (and still do) that having one (the mage) with a VPP that can do lots of things would be a good idea. the other two are fairly standard - one an armored semi-brick (has several suits he can switch around to as needed) the third is a guy that throws things to the effect of making pretty powerful EB's and such.

I currently don't see things being too out of balance - and I am slowly introducing them to "my" villains and style of GMing so that they don't all get killed right off or something otherwise unpleasant.

Last game for example was the first I pulled a sniper on them. Lure them somewhere then have a sniper several blocks away take a shot out of the blue on them. Next time I bet they look around a bit for snipers...

So far so good. Next game may be a bit of a clincher... we shall see. Bwah ha ha ha.

[KA.]

Re: The mix

 

Originally posted by Kzinbane

My group is only 4 people right now, one (me) GM. Given the fairly low numbers I thougt (and still do) that having one (the mage) with a VPP that can do lots of things would be a good idea. the other two are fairly standard - one an armored semi-brick (has several suits he can switch around to as needed) the third is a guy that throws things to the effect of making pretty powerful EB's and such.

I currently don't see things being too out of balance - and I am slowly introducing them to "my" villains and style of GMing so that they don't all get killed right off or something otherwise unpleasant.

Last game for example was the first I pulled a sniper on them. Lure them somewhere then have a sniper several blocks away take a shot out of the blue on them. Next time I bet they look around a bit for snipers...

So far so good. Next game may be a bit of a clincher... we shall see. Bwah ha ha ha.

 

Sounds like you are doing just fine, then.

One last thing, if you have been reading the "Omega Team Logs", you can see how cool it is to keep a "diary" of what happens in your game. I didn't do nearly as good a job as they did, but I do keep a file of "What is going on?"

Sometimes a Player will make an offhand comment, or a guess at what is going to happen next, that is as good or better than what you had planned.

If you keep track of them when they come up, you can slide them into the campaign at some point.

It gives the campaign a feeling of cohesiveness, since the things that happen make "sense", since the players "expected" them.

And, if your campaign lasts a long time, you will have a record of "the good old days".

 

Good luck in your campaign, remember to have fun, and if you ever need "Evil GM" advice, be sure to ask, there are plenty of them on the boards.

 

KA.

[Oruncrest]

Originally posted by KA.

Oruncrest,

You made a very convincing argument.

 

Which is not very hard when you are conducting both sides of it.:

 

I did want to address both you and Caped Crusader in one post...

 

I deliberately failed to provide any SFX for the Automatic Grappling Hook, since it was just an example of something that could automatically snatch back a gun.

 

Based on your coming up with a definition of it that does not work very well, you did a great job of defeating yourself.

 

Congratulations?

 

To me, SFX is King, and you described it as an 'automatic grappling hook'. Which means that there is a line that streches out to the gun, a hook to grab it, and a winch to pull it back. Since it requires a hook and line, it needs to make a OCV>DCV roll. And since it require a winch, I think that a STR vs. STR check is valid, even if you use Teleport, 'cause I just can't see this little winch pulling a gun free from Durak's grasp (assuming the winch hits the gun). Can you?

 

What if I bought it as something totally "unfair", like a Teleport, built into the Gun itself, with a single Fixed Location of "My Holster" and a Trigger defined as "When Grabbed", and the SFX were a "Grappling Hook" that snatched the gun back automatically when stolen?

(Oh, and by the way, I'll add several levels of AP on it, so that nothing can hold it.) Sounds like I am trying to get points for nothing, doesn't it?

 

I know I'd get at least one sessions worth of humor out of it.

 

Gunboy: I draw my Gun and put five Autofire AP Rounds into Bunny O'Steel.

Me: The Gun flys back into your holster.

Gunboy: What!?!?

Me: You grabbed your gun, right? When you did that, you set off it's Trigger which teleports it back into your holster.

Gunboy: But...

Me: Oh, and while you were wondering why your gun went away, Bunny O'Steel hops over and 'Thump's you (clatter, clatter). She hits (Clatter, clatter again) and... Whoo! I didn't know you could roll that high offa 7D6. (checks my copy of Gunboy's character sheet) Damn! Did you have to put all your defenses into the gun too? She knocks you out, does you some serious internal injuries, and (rolls 2 against knockback, then winces and mouths 'aw mannn...') knocks you thru two brick walls and nearly into a third. The first brick wall (more Clatter, clatter) turns your spine, ribs, and the back of your skull into free-floating puncture devices. The second one (even more Clatter, clatter) sends those free-floating puncture devices into various sensitive areas, like your heart, lungs, and brain. You're dead. (I take Gunboy's character sheet from the stunned player, put it into a shoebox, and, after the fight is over, hold funeral services for poor Gunboy.)

 

Anyway, your attack on my position has nothing to do with the original question posed.

 

Now, if you were the GM in the campaign Caped Crusader was playing in, and you stacked the deck in a similar way, I would have no worries about the T-Port power being abusive.

 

This does not appear to be the case.

 

What if a character's Force Field only works when the temperature exceeds 100 degress, so he takes a Limitation on it.

But, he has also bought Change Environment, set up to keep the temperature above 100 degrees.

Would that still be a Limitation?

 

The first thing I would do is ask him just what is it about his powers that require the temperature to be 100+ degrees for them to function. If he could give me a good answer, I'd let him have a -¼ limitation - the same as 'Only in Hero ID', which would probably have been better for him as I wouldn't be tempted to make sure everybody around him 'felt the heat', so to speak. If not, then I'd have him redesign the character.

[KA.]

Originally posted by Oruncrest

-snip-

The first thing I would do is ask him just what is it about his powers that require the temperature to be 100+ degrees for them to function. If he could give me a good answer, I'd let him have a -¼ limitation - the same as 'Only in Hero ID', which would probably have been better for him as I wouldn't be tempted to make sure everybody around him 'felt the heat', so to speak. If not, then I'd have him redesign the character.

 

Just FYI,

This is a paraphrase of the example used in Hero 5th (p. 179) of a Limitation that is worth no points, because the character has a power that cancels it out.

 

The situation with the Entangle and the Teleport is a bit more ambiguous, but it still seems to violate, at least to some extent, the spirit of the rules.

 

Since Kzinbane and Caped Crusader have worked it out to their satisfaction, I won't worry about it.

 

A GM has the right to do whatever he wants in his own campaign.

 

But, just to clarify my position a bit, I am far less worried about "damage" to the rules, than I am about damage to a campaign. As long as the other players are granted similar "exceptions", or they find the relative usefulness of Caped Crusader's character balances the slight edge in points, everything should be fine.

 

As long as everyone knows what is going on, and why.

 

But, when people ask this sort of question, I try to give a "conservative" answer, because it is much less painful to have a stranger on a bulletin board bring up potential inequities, than to have another player form the opinion that they have been "screwed" at some later date.

 

KA.

[JmOz]

It's funny, after reading this I would say screw gestures/Incantations and give him Var Lim -1/4, does not save as much but still...

[Kzinbane]

From the Villain standpoint

 

As I mentioned "my" villains - well some of them at least learn as they go. In particular the organizational ones - such as Viper or my local west coast mob group or the Chinese Tong learn as they go. Debriefing is an obvious thing to happen after an agent or super working for the groups encounters one or more of the local super types. What were their tactics, how did they work together (did they work together), what powers did they use, etc.

Over time that and the addition of occasional TV footage of a big battle and most organize villains will have a good idea on how to deal better with the super group. Information is a commodity too - it's not far from likely that one person who knows a lot about the local supers could sell information to other interested parties. So Spellbinder has a teleport that gets him out of an entangle. This will be a big help for him the first time it's used, maybe more if "word" doesn't get out that entangles are not useful on him.

Since I am a super villain at heart (just waiting to gain powers somewhat impatiently) I know what I would do (if I HAD the darn powers that never seem to get here) in many a game situation. The escape entangle t'port would be a minor eyebrow raiser and then - well ok, then let's try something else. No big deal. Everyone is having fun (I ask them for feedback frequently) and so am I. That IS the name of the game.