Normal Characteristic Maxima... And Movement...

[Foxiekins]

Those are the two things I would really change about Hero system... Let me tell you my thoughts, and see how loud everyone screams... Or not...

 

For Characteristics, this would give a unified pattern to the Maximums for Figured Characteristics that is similar to the one for Basic Characteristics... The Maxima for those are always twice the base value... This would apply the same to Figured Characteristics... For example...

 

Someone with STR 10 would have a base PD of 2, and a maximum PD of 4... If they had STR 20, their base PD would be 4, and their maximum 8... The greatest effect would be on Speed... Someone with DEX 10 would have a base Speed of 2, and a maximum of 4... Someone with DEX 20, however, would have a base Speed of 3, and a maximum of 6... With a CON of 10, base END would be 20, and max would be 40... But with CON 20, the base goes to 40, and the max goes to 80...

 

STUN has a base of 20 if STR, CON, and BODY are all at 10... The max would be 40 in this case, while taking STR, CON, and BODY all to 20 would raise the base STUN to 40, and the max to 80...

 

In many cases, this actually *reduces* the maximums below the established ones for certain Figured Characteristics... And, it replaces a complex chart with a single principle... "Maximum amount you can spend before the cost doubles is enough to increase to twice the base value..."

 

If this change were made, though, I'm not sure if Normal Characteristic Maxima should still be worth 20 points... What do y'all think...?

 

Second, one thing that has always made me blink is someone magically being able to run faster when their Speed Characteristic goes up, along with Move By and Move Through damage being figured from Move, not Velocity... For Teleport, it makes sense for someone with faster reaction time, who can teleport more often, to be able to cover a greater distance this way, but this is because Teleport doesn't involve motion... You just vanish from one spot, and reappear at another...

 

My approach with this was to try and get a zero-point character to behave the same way as it does now... A zero point character has 6" of running, for example, and a Speed of 2...

 

My solution is to have characters buy Velocity, not Movement, for Movement Powers other than Teleport and its relatives... 6" of running, with a Speed of 2 is 12" of Velocity, which would be the starting value for characters... Since buying 1" of move for a Speed 2 character gives them 2" of move, just halve all the Movement Power costs, and require characters to buy Velocity in Multiples of their Speed Characteristic to have the Move they want...

 

So, for example... Every character starts with Running at 12", and a Speed of 2... This is enough to give you a Move of 6"... Running costs 1 point per inch of Velocity, but you have to buy 2" of Velocity to gain an inch of Move when you're Speed 2...

 

If you raise your Speed to 4, however, your base 12" of Velocity only gives you 3" of Move... You can raise your Move to 4" by buying 4" of Velocity, and to 5" by buying another 4", and so forth... This would also apply to powers like Flight, which would change to 1 point per inch, but require someone with Speed 6 to buy 6" to increase their Move by 1"...

 

Each inch of Move would correspond directly to a number of inches of Velocity equal to your Speed Characteristic... And then base Move Bys and Move Throughs on Velocity... Doubling Velocity would add 1d6 to Move By damage, and add 2d6 to Move Through damage... And Move bys and Move Throughs at non-combat velocities becomes easy to judge, and no longer involves obscene numbers of dice... Even Megascaled Movement is manageable... The first level of Megascaling would be around 9 doublings, for +9d6 to a Move By, or +18d6 to a Move Through... Still grotesque, but managable...

 

Any thoughts on this, as well...?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Normal Characteristic Maxima... And Movement...

 

I'm not fond of either idea. No offense, it's just a personal preference and using the system as is is simply easier (an important factor when playing Hero System).

 

Your ideas concerning Characterisic Maxima sound cool, but it does make some things a bit unbalanced (or even more unbalanced if you ask some). STR and CON will not only pay for themselves, but also raise the Maxima for their Figured Characteristics. One wouldn't be forced to buy their STR and CON to max just to get good PD and ED, but they'd actually save points doing so, and get free REC and STUN because of it. All because they wanted higher defenses.

 

As for movement, I agree the currently system is messed up. In play, I've never seen it interrupt a game or make any players stop and go "huh?" I toyed with the idea of making movement Turn based instead of Phase based, but then it gets really messed up when you get into SPDs of 5 and 7. You could make it Segment Based, but that slows down combat and would make Movement really expensive.

[sbarron]

Re: Normal Characteristic Maxima... And Movement...

 

I don't see that the current maximums chart is any more difficult than your method. Why do you think your CHAR Maxima calculation is any better than the current method? What percieved deficiency are you correcting?

 

The best alternate method for calculating movement I've seen was to just seperate SPD from the movement calc, and have PCs buy inches on a per turn basis. Sure, this has drawbacks too, but that is the nature of segmented movement. That's basically what you are suggesting here, while removing the ability of 6 SPD guy to buy inches in incriments other than 6" per turn. I don't see the need to make PCs buy movement in blocks. Just let them divide their inches by their SPD and be done with it. I don't see movement as a big enough problem to change the current rules, though. Usually all PCs will either be 3 or 4 SPD in herioc games, or 4-6 in Supers games. The difference in who "runs faster" following these SPDs isn't a big deal. Higher SPDs are usually faster runners. No big deal.

[Arthur]

Re: Normal Characteristic Maxima... And Movement...

 

Someone with STR 10 would have a base PD of 2, and a maximum PD of 4... If they had STR 20, their base PD would be 4, and their maximum 8... The greatest effect would be

 

That would make buying high STR and DEX even MORE cost-effective than it is now! Yikes. It would make virtually every character STR 18+ and DEX 20+.

 

this case, while taking STR, CON, and BODY all to 20 would raise the base STUN to 40, and the max to 80...

 

That's a lot of STUN for a Heroic Campaign. Hell, that's a lot of STUN for a superhero...

 

 

Second, one thing that has always made me blink is someone magically being able to run faster when their Speed Characteristic goes up, along with Move By and Move Through damage being figured from Move, not Velocity... For Teleport, it makes sense for

 

That is a weird effect of the Speed Chart. If two characters are both travelling at the same total velocity, the one with the lower SPD does more damage from the Move-x maneuvers! Peculiar.

This can be an issue when trying to model real-world effects. Vehicles, for instance.

One solution is to pick a "Campaign SPD". Then "Effective Move" would be (Move per Phase * Character SPD / Campaign SPD).

For instance, if the Campaign SPD is set at 4, then a character with Move 20" and SPD 6 would have an Effective Move of 30" for impact purposes. This can get complicated as a character may not always be travelling his maximum Move, and it would have to be figured on the fly (no pun intended). I think it's easy (pocket calculators, anyone?), but some don't like doing arithmetic.

[Foxiekins]

Re: Normal Characteristic Maxima... And Movement...

 

But then you would have players calculating how much Velocity they needed to purchase to get the round-off on their Move... I prefered to go with Increments of your Speed, because that's more evocative of the rules for Speed itself... (You have to buy up to an integral Speed to get the benefit...)

 

It also makes your Move Bys and Move Throughs based on your Velocity in an easy to figure way, since each hex of Move is treated as an amount of Velocity equal to your Speed... And don't forget the resulting simplification of Move Bys and Move Throughs at non-combat velocities...

[Dust Raven]

Re: Normal Characteristic Maxima... And Movement...

 

As a theoretical question, Foxiekins, how would you calculate Move Through and Move By damage using your method? It certainly couldn't be anything close to the standard method and keep close the the same effectiveness. I'm not doubting it would be consistant based on overall velocity, but how would you calculate it to make those maneuvers just as viable using your method of movement?

[Foxiekins]

Re: Normal Characteristic Maxima... And Movement...

 

Well, the idea for the +2d6 damage for double velocity for a Move Through is based on Kinetic Energy... Double velocity is 4 times the Kinetic Energy, since Energy is proportional to velocity squared... I figured twice the Energy would be +1d6, and another doubling would be +2d6 total... +1d6 for a Move By is based on the fact that Damage for a Move Through is STR plus a velocity bonus, while Damage for a Move By is half STR, plus a velocity bonus...

 

As for how to calculate it, that calls for invoking principle of Nominality... In other words, ideally, a zero-point character should behave the same under the new rules as it does under the old rules...

 

A zero-point character has 6" of Running... This is +2d6 for a Move Through, or +4d6 at non-combat (x2) velocity... A Move By is trickier, as you divide by 5, but the results are +1d6, or +2d6 at non-combat, after rounding down...

 

Note that this is perfectly compatible with +2d6 for doubling with a Move Through, and +1d6 for doubling with a Move By...

 

Since a zero-point character would be Speed 2, 6" of Move is 12" of velocity... So you could express it in a table, say, remembering that each hex of move counts as inches of velocity = your Speed...

 

Bonus___Move Through___Move By

+0__________6"___________6" (This must be exceeded for a Bonus)

+1d6________8"__________12"

+2d6_______12"__________24"

+3d6_______16"__________48"

+4d6_______24"__________96"

+5d6_______32"_________192"

+6d6_______48"

+7d6_______64"

+8d6_______96"

+9d6______128"

 

Note that the column for Move Throughs is much longer and still useable... Also remember that each hex you move lets you count 5 inches of your move towards your velocity, which means that each hex you move lets you count 5 times your Speed for the table above... You may also recognize the numbers I used, as I filled in values from off the Optional Range Modifiers table from page 246 of FRED... You might prefer to assume a little more than 12" with a Move Through rounds down to +2d6 instead of up to +3d6, but I prefer this way, as it results in a sensible relationship between these distances and the Range Bands...

 

Your Milage May Vary, however...

[ghost-angel]

Re: Normal Characteristic Maxima... And Movement...

 

Hmmm.. the characteristics issues aside I think you misunderstood Movement.

 

movement powers are not how fast you move, they are how far you move. How fast you move is defined by your SPD.

 

Velocity Vetors are defined by distance over time. Modeling faster characters depends on the time increment you are working in. In game terms a segment = 1 sec. If you want the fastest per/segment character you need to increase the distance able to be traversed. If you want the fastest per/hour character you can adjust either factor - they quickness with which they move or the distance they move any given moment in time.

 

The one thing that breaks down in all game systems is accurately modeling how everything happens all the time, continuously. That'd be clusmy, not nearly as dramatic and probably take a volume twice as thick as FREd to define.

 

Using SPD and a number of actions Turn lets you define people who simply move faster, but maybe not farther.

 

A SPD2 and a SPD4 guy are running along, both can move 6" when given a chance to act. SPD2 guy will be outrun by SPD4 guy over larger increments of time.. the longer you measure the farther apart they get, SPD4 always in front. On the other hand SPD4 guy is using his energy twice as often and will tire out first (given equal END), which may give SPD2 guy the chance to catch up and pass SPD4 guy.

 

If you really really wanted to be accurate you could model all of a characters actions across the "dead" phases between their available actions. SPD2 guy moves 6" .. 1" per segment until her reaches his destination on the next available phase he can go on. But this will get messy as you factor in attack actions and everything else .. end you'll probably get a headache.

[Pegasus]

Re: Normal Characteristic Maxima... And Movement...

 

Though I don't use the normal char max, I'm intrigued by your speed/velocity idea. I've been bothered by the same notions, but it appears that we may be in the minority. Have you actually tried to implement this yet? I would be very intrigued to see how it works out in a playtest.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Normal Characteristic Maxima... And Movement...

 

Bonus___Move Through___Move By

+0__________6"___________6" (This must be exceeded for a Bonus)

+1d6________8"__________12"

+2d6_______12"__________24"

+3d6_______16"__________48"

+4d6_______24"__________96"

+5d6_______32"_________192"

+6d6_______48"

+7d6_______64"

+8d6_______96"

+9d6______128"

Are these values the total velecity (as in the number of inches the character can run in a Turn) or the character total movement (inches per Phase)? In either case, modling it after "nominality" hampers characters that actually spend point on their characters. Asside from the cost of movement doubling or trippling (which it does for characters that buy their SPD above 2), the damage from Move Bys and Move Throughts are signficantly less than using the standard rules (absurdly less if the above represent inches/phase).

 

I agree it's fair and balanced, at least until someone buys Teleport (which is increadibly cheaper than any other Movement Power at this point), but I see anyone playing a speedster, ever, with costs as prohibitive as this.

[Foxiekins]

Re: Normal Characteristic Maxima... And Movement...

 

Are these values the total velecity (as in the number of inches the character can run in a Turn) or the character total movement (inches per Phase)? In either case, modling it after "nominality" hampers characters that actually spend point on their characters. Asside from the cost of movement doubling or trippling (which it does for characters that buy their SPD above 2), the damage from Move Bys and Move Throughts are signficantly less than using the standard rules (absurdly less if the above represent inches/phase).

 

I agree it's fair and balanced, at least until someone buys Teleport (which is increadibly cheaper than any other Movement Power at this point), but I see anyone playing a speedster, ever, with costs as prohibitive as this.

 

These values are Velocity... Your Maximum Velocity is the number of inches you can run in a Turn, but remember that for someone with Speed 4, for example, each inch of Move would correspond to 4 inches of Velocity... Plus, remember that you can count up to 5 inches of your Move towards damage for each hex you cover... So someone with Speed 4 could count up to 20 inches of Velocity for each hex they covered doing a Move Through or Move By...

 

As for absurdly less, you mean you think speedsters *should* be doing 50 or 60 dice of damage with Move Throughs...? Should a speedster running at Mach 2 be doing more than a hundred dice of damage...?

 

As for Teleport, you can't do Move Throughs or Move Bys with it... No momentum, remember...?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Normal Characteristic Maxima... And Movement...

 

I did some calculations based upon your method... correct me if I'm missunderstanding.

 

Under the standard rules, a character with a 30 STR and 6 SPD can buy 30" of Flight for 60 points. This gives them a Move By of 9d6 and a Move Through of 16d6. Such a character can perform these maneuvers 6 times in a Turn.

 

The same character would have to spend 180 points for that much flight (180 being 30x6, and in your first post said that such movement would cost 1/1". That gives you a Velocity of 180. Based on your velocity table, that character now only does 7d6 with a Move By and 15d6 with a Move Through. That's less damage, and all that's changed is how you figure the damage based on movement, which costs this character 3 times a much.

 

If you weren't interested in doing damage (either because it's not in your character concept, or such a concept is now far too expensive), you should buy Teleport, which and equal number of inches/Phase would only cost 60 points. Speedsters under your rules would just cost too much, as would any character other than one who teleported.

 

Now, I'm not saying you've got a bad idea, I just don't think you should be basing your costs and effects off of base characteristics. Base it off of what an average character would be. Of course, "average character" can be radically different from campaign to campaign.

[Foxiekins]

Re: Normal Characteristic Maxima... And Movement...

 

Now' date=' I'm not saying you've got a bad idea, I just don't think you should be basing your costs and effects off of base characteristics. Base it off of what an average character would be. Of course, "average character" can be radically different from campaign to campaign.[/quote']

 

Which makes it impossible to figure costs... A zero point character IS the same in every campaign... But, what would you guess the "average character" would look like, as far as Speed and Move...?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Normal Characteristic Maxima... And Movement...

 

Which makes it impossible to figure costs... A zero point character IS the same in every campaign... But' date=' what would you guess the "average character" would look like, as far as Speed and Move...?[/quote']

That's were it gets difficult, if not impossible, and probably why Steve and the original designers left it as inches per Phase.

 

Unfortunately I don't have any answers that will solve it for you because I tried the same thing when I started laying HERO over 10 years ago. I spent about 9 months working of some alternate way to figure movement and how much it costs and ultimately decided that the most fair and balanced way is to keep the standard rules. If someone, such as yourself, manages to come up with something better, you'll be my hero, but I have my doubts...

[Foxiekins]

Re: Normal Characteristic Maxima... And Movement...

 

That's were it gets difficult, if not impossible, and probably why Steve and the original designers left it as inches per Phase.

 

Unfortunately I don't have any answers that will solve it for you because I tried the same thing when I started laying HERO over 10 years ago. I spent about 9 months working of some alternate way to figure movement and how much it costs and ultimately decided that the most fair and balanced way is to keep the standard rules. If someone, such as yourself, manages to come up with something better, you'll be my hero, but I have my doubts...

 

Actually, it *is* solved for me... Zero point characters are ALWAYS THE SAME... I was just contemplating what might solve it for *you*...

[Dust Raven]

Re: Normal Characteristic Maxima... And Movement...

 

Actually' date=' it *is* solved for me... Zero point characters are ALWAYS THE SAME... I was just contemplating what might solve it for *you*...[/quote']

Ah, well then.

 

Um... I'm fine with the somewhat inacurate and not entirely logical, but still point balanced method of the standard rules. As I said, I gave up on trying alternate methods years ago.