Oops...

[lemming]

Re: Oops...

 

One might also note the lack of references in my own post which indicates I don't know the answer - I'm going purely from memory of an ability I only see used rarely. From a very quick search of the FAQ, Bracing is a zero phase action in any case, so there's no use of phases. Nothing on whether bracing to resist knockback has any impact on DCV.

 

If I recall correctly, you have to specify the direction from which the Knockback you are bracing against will come. I think Flight roots you against all directions, though. Hmm...curious enough to ask The Man now. Off to the Rules Q's board.

Bracing for Ranged combat is different from Bracing vs. Knockback

 

Bracing gives you a +2 OCV vs ranged modifiers. 1/2 DCV Page 254-6

 

Bracing against knockback is referred to in Fifth Edition as Resisting against knockback to help differentiate.

 

Resisting takes a 1/2 phase, reduces DCV by 1/2, and can be aborted to.

 

And according to the rules, it doesn't matter if STR or Flight is used, but you declare which direction you're bracing against. Page 282

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Oops...

 

Bracing for Ranged combat is different from Bracing vs. Knockback

 

Bracing gives you a +2 OCV vs ranged modifiers. 1/2 DCV Page 254-6

 

Bracing against knockback is referred to in Fifth Edition as Resisting against knockback to help differentiate.

 

Resisting takes a 1/2 phase, reduces DCV by 1/2, and can be aborted to.

 

And according to the rules, it doesn't matter if STR or Flight is used, but you declare which direction you're bracing against. Page 282

 

That's much better - 1/2 phase and 1/2 DCV seems like a pretty major tradeoff, especially for only one direction.

 

I knew it had to be limited - 1" flight costs 2 points. 1" KB resistance costs END costs 2 points and doesn't provide quite the same versatility.

 

Thanks, Lemming.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Oops...

 

"screwed twice by knockback"

Because they took damage AND are prone I presume?

 

Actually, my question has to do with what can happen after a character has been made prone. Getting knocked down by a hard hit is fine. My problem comes from when all the attacker's buddies suddenly get to attack you at 1/2 DCV. I'm looking for way a prone character can defend himself, preferably using Skills or Combat Maneuvers.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Oops...

 

P.S. I have really enjoyed this exchange. Your really read what people post' date=' and hold them to a high standard of accuracy. To me, that only improves everyone's understanding of the game. [/quote']

Thanks, KA!

 

Such praise would have been more poetic if posted to my Unluck thread, as my internet got disconnected the day you posted this...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Oops...

 

Thanks, KA!

 

Such praise would have been more poetic if posted to my Unluck thread, as my internet got disconnected the day you posted this...

I'm glad to see you are back as well and second KA's appraisal of your contributions.

[Farkling]

Re: Oops...

 

Does it drop to 1/2 immediately? Or is it at the end of the phase like force fields and powers?

 

I can't think of any combat situation where you can fight and defend yourself while prone. Usually prone conflicts involve people who have dragged each other to the ground and are flailing or stabbing.

 

Even pro-wrestling is pretty much waiting to execute a dodge or block against the incoming attack.

 

Blocks depend on OCV. They can be used from the prone position. Perhaps instead of dodging and twisting the character who wants to fight from the prone position should use a block. Gee....he can even use them against ALL his HtH attackers. And next time, you get to go first....hmmmm. Stand up and belt him (or legsweep a la Jackie Chan).

 

Savate has a defensive move that can be utilzed when one is flat on their back, but it is probably just a "stand up and dodge" in hero terms. It is primarily much leg sweeping to discourage people from approaching.

 

I guess maybe you just need to stack some PSL's together for a cost estimate and then see what the comparable "retain full HtH DCV while prone" skill would then cost. But I also think it is a silly skill. Personally I think that any character agile and skilled enough to retain his full HtH DCV while prone should have the skills to PREVENT winding up in that situation. You can use Breakfall to stand up as I recall.

 

you want cake and to eat it too....prone with full ocv, cover and/or concelament versus range AND full DCV versus hand to hand manuevers. Not to mention fighting at normal combat values while on the ground. Just doesn't work for me.

 

Buy PSL's, conditional levels, or some power to do it. Or use blocks while prone. I can't think of a martial artist that attacks while prone and doesn't get hit. I will ask my friend if Bruce Lee could do it. :need ninja smiley:

[Dust Raven]

Re: Oops...

 

I can think of lots of non-martial artists that don't get hit while prone. They aren't doing much attacking while avoiding getting hit though. Most twist or squirm or roll out of the way. In almost all of these cases the attack is coming straight down at them. In others it's coming across, parallel to the ground, and they flatten out more to avoid it (an example of the attacker's OCV penalty for attack a prone character at range).

 

In any case, I'm not specifically looking for full DCV. If I wanted full DCV, I'd buy levels with Acrobatics or Limited DCV CSLs. I'm looking for options available to every able bodied character to defend themselves while prone. Examples of what I'm looking to simulate is rolling along the ground to avoid attacks, twisting and squriming and similar actions. Using Block is an obvious option, as being prone doesn't halve your OCV.

 

I suppose the above could be simulated by Dodging while prone, though you'd still half the total DCV. I'm not sure how to adjucate Dive For Cover though, or if I should simply limit it 1" for rolling/crawling unless the character has Possition Shift on his movement.

[Farkling]

pffft

 

I can think of lots of non-martial artists that don't get hit while prone

And where did I say "only martial artists can do this" ??

I said I couldn't picture it. it is counter genre and not a comic book staple. So name me your non-martial artist examples. I'm interested in your sources.

 

Some options available to every able bodied character to defend themselves from hand to hand attacks while prone::

 

1) Get up and run away

2) roll away at the last minute.

3) get up and dodge

4) get up and block

5) suffer from lack of mobility and lie there on the ground

6) shoot the bad guy when he tries to hit you

7) squirm around on the ground

 

1) Get up and Dive for Cover

2) Dodge or Block or "Crawl for Cover". Options all charaacters have. Block might be the wisest choice given how easy one is to hit. Block does NOT mean "I stop his attack", it means you don't take damage from it...there's a whole thread on that somewhere around here.

3) Stand. Dodge.

4) Stand. Block.

5) 1/2 DCV while prone.

6) requires a power...

7) Dodge or Block, but still subject to 1/2 DCV.

 

Now....as to WHY I will not encourage dodge bonuses at full value to a prone character. These values are intended for a freely mobile character using his inbreed skill/training/combat knowledge. A prone character is by definition NOT freely mobile, and should suffer restrictions. A block is FINE in my mind, because it requires active participation and awareness of the attacks. Dodge seems so much more a passive defense to me, since it applies against everyone on the combat field. YMMV.

 

Apparently Steve covered groundfighting in the UMA. Look at all these tidbits from the combat FAQ.

Q: How does being prone affect a character’s OCV (both for attacking and Blocking), if at all?

 

A: See UMA 159, which discusses the subject of groundfighting. The GM could certainly apply the same penalties to a prone character fighting a standing one.

 

Q: Can a character Dive For Cover two or more times in a row?

 

A: Yes, assuming special effects and timing allow for that (which is a matter of GM’s discretion). For example, a character who Dives For Cover and ends up prone, but is attacked in a later Segment before he’s had a chance to get to his feet, might not be allowed to Dive For Cover again, since he hasn’t had a chance to reorient himself and get into a position that would allow him to move quickly again. On the other hand, in some genres a GM might want to let characters who are “prone†Dive For Cover by scrambling, rolling, or crawling out of the way.

 

 

Q: Can a character use Breakfall or Acrobatics to avoid being prone and/or suffering a DCV penalty after a Dive For Cover?

 

A: No.

 

Q: Does the Position Shift Adder for Teleportation have any effect on Dive For Cover — for example, does it allow a character to Dive For Cover without suffering “prone†penalties.

 

A: No

 

Q: If a character takes Knockback, does he lose the CV bonuses he’s gained from using a particular Combat/Martial Maneuver?

 

A: No; being Knocked Back does not affect the CV bonuses gained from using a particular maneuver. For example, a character using Martial Strike or Dodge retains the DCV bonus he gets from that maneuver, even if he’s Knocked Back. Nor does being Knocked Back eliminate the DCV penalty from maneuvers like Sweep.

 

Q: If a character allocates Combat Skill Levels to DCV, or obtains a DCV bonus from a Combat Maneuver and the like, and then suffers Knockback, but uses Breakfall to stay on his feet, does he lose the DCV bonuses?

 

A: No. If he did not keep his feet he would, of course, be subject to penalties for being prone, but as long as he keeps his feet he doesn’t suffer any diminishment of DCV.

 

Then again....i probably wasted my time digging that out. I just remembered how much stock you put in Steve's opinion of how the rules work. So I guess the cheezeball answer is a 5 or 10 pt skill in "groundfighting" or "prone combat". ick.

[Dust Raven]

Re: pffft

 

I can think of lots of non-martial artists that don't get hit while prone

And where did I say "only martial artists can do this" ??

I said I couldn't picture it. it is counter genre and not a comic book staple. So name me your non-martial artist examples. I'm interested in your sources.

Who said anything about genre. I'm looking for generic rules.

As for your sources, check out several Saturday Morning Cartoons and just about every cop show or movie (any action movie for that mater). Sure, it doesn't happen every episode, but it happens fairly often enough.

 

Some options available to every able bodied character to defend themselves from hand to hand attacks while prone::

 

1) Get up and run away

2) roll away at the last minute.

3) get up and dodge

4) get up and block

5) suffer from lack of mobility and lie there on the ground

6) shoot the bad guy when he tries to hit you

7) squirm around on the ground

 

1) Get up and Dive for Cover

2) Dodge or Block or "Crawl for Cover". Options all charaacters have. Block might be the wisest choice given how easy one is to hit. Block does NOT mean "I stop his attack", it means you don't take damage from it...there's a whole thread on that somewhere around here.

3) Stand. Dodge.

4) Stand. Block.

5) 1/2 DCV while prone.

6) requires a power...

7) Dodge or Block, but still subject to 1/2 DCV.

 

Now....as to WHY I will not encourage dodge bonuses at full value to a prone character. These values are intended for a freely mobile character using his inbreed skill/training/combat knowledge. A prone character is by definition NOT freely mobile, and should suffer restrictions.

"WHY" do you continue to think I'm looking for a rule to grant prone characters full DCV? I've said several times I'm not. I'm just looking for a chance to defend themselves beyond just sitting there at 1/2.

A block is FINE in my mind, because it requires active participation and awareness of the attacks. Dodge seems so much more a passive defense to me, since it applies against everyone on the combat field. YMMV.

Now this is some useful information, thought you've also said this several times. Please forgive me if I didn't jump right out and acknowledge you the first time.

Apparently Steve covered groundfighting in the UMA. Look at all these tidbits from the combat FAQ.

Q: How does being prone affect a character’s OCV (both for attacking and Blocking), if at all?

 

A: See UMA 159, which discusses the subject of groundfighting. The GM could certainly apply the same penalties to a prone character fighting a standing one.

 

Q: Can a character Dive For Cover two or more times in a row?

 

A: Yes, assuming special effects and timing allow for that (which is a matter of GM’s discretion). For example, a character who Dives For Cover and ends up prone, but is attacked in a later Segment before he’s had a chance to get to his feet, might not be allowed to Dive For Cover again, since he hasn’t had a chance to reorient himself and get into a position that would allow him to move quickly again. On the other hand, in some genres a GM might want to let characters who are “prone†Dive For Cover by scrambling, rolling, or crawling out of the way.

 

 

Q: Can a character use Breakfall or Acrobatics to avoid being prone and/or suffering a DCV penalty after a Dive For Cover?

 

A: No.

 

Q: Does the Position Shift Adder for Teleportation have any effect on Dive For Cover — for example, does it allow a character to Dive For Cover without suffering “prone†penalties.

 

A: No

 

Q: If a character takes Knockback, does he lose the CV bonuses he’s gained from using a particular Combat/Martial Maneuver?

 

A: No; being Knocked Back does not affect the CV bonuses gained from using a particular maneuver. For example, a character using Martial Strike or Dodge retains the DCV bonus he gets from that maneuver, even if he’s Knocked Back. Nor does being Knocked Back eliminate the DCV penalty from maneuvers like Sweep.

 

Q: If a character allocates Combat Skill Levels to DCV, or obtains a DCV bonus from a Combat Maneuver and the like, and then suffers Knockback, but uses Breakfall to stay on his feet, does he lose the DCV bonuses?

 

A: No. If he did not keep his feet he would, of course, be subject to penalties for being prone, but as long as he keeps his feet he doesn’t suffer any diminishment of DCV.

 

Then again....i probably wasted my time digging that out. I just remembered how much stock you put in Steve's opinion of how the rules work. So I guess the cheezeball answer is a 5 or 10 pt skill in "groundfighting" or "prone combat". ick.

You're right. Nothing new. I'm looking for new, or at least interpretations of the established I haven't heard yet. But thanks for trying.