Mind controll Vs Mind Controll

[Guest The JeRQ]

The other day "SAW" and I were playing our campaign and we ren into a very heated disagreement (not good given that I am a player and he is the GM). One of my fellow charecters was mind controlled to attack my charecter by annother mentalist, I used two tactics both of which were overruled. The first was to tryan opposing mind controll effect but the roll was too low. Acording to the book however there is an optional rule that allows an unsuccessfull mind controll attempt to help by reducing the penalties to the break out roll and allows for annother break out roll. This idea was shot down by SAW by him not allowing an immediate roll but instead applying the modifier to the next available roll (which was unfortunately not until the Brick in question had been given 4 additional active phases, more than ample time to turn my charecter into a nice throw rug). I grudgingly conceded this point. Durring the players next action she missed (narrowly) and I shifted my tactics. I had read that changing the situation so as to heighten the level of effect needed to controll the brick would cause an immediate breakout roll to follow. My mentalist has an Aid 4d6 any one charecteristic at a time which I used to aid the Brick's Ego. This caused the brick's ego to go up from 10 to 18 (good Dice, My Precious). Saw said that this did not change the situation as a result did not grant the break out roll. I wholeheartedly disagree with this decision and would like to hear your thoughts.

[Agent X]

Re: Mind controll Vs Mind Controll

 

The other day "SAW" and I were playing our campaign and we ren into a very heated disagreement (not good given that I am a player and he is the GM). One of my fellow charecters was mind controlled to attack my charecter by annother mentalist' date=' I used two tactics both of which were overruled. The first was to tryan opposing mind controll effect but the roll was too low. Acording to the book however there is an optional rule that allows an unsuccessfull mind controll attempt to help by reducing the penalties to the break out roll and allows for annother break out roll. This idea was shot down by SAW by him not allowing an immediate roll but instead applying the modifier to the next available roll (which was unfortunately not until the Brick in question had been given 4 additional active phases, more than ample time to turn my charecter into a nice throw rug). I grudgingly conceded this point. Durring the players next action she missed (narrowly) and I shifted my tactics. I had read that changing the situation so as to heighten the level of effect needed to controll the brick would cause an immediate breakout roll to follow. My mentalist has an Aid 4d6 any one charecteristic at a time which I used to aid the Brick's Ego. This caused the brick's ego to go up from 10 to 18 (good Dice, My Precious). Saw said that this did not change the situation as a result did not grant the break out roll. I wholeheartedly disagree with this decision and would like to hear your thoughts.[/quote']I disagree with SAW's decision as well. Seems like SAW just wanted to have the Brick mind controlled regardless of what you did.

[Osprey]

Re: Mind controll Vs Mind Controll

 

It sounds like the GM was definitely fudging the rules to favor the plot situation of "friend vs (Controlled) friend".

 

But this is within his rights as GM.

 

The REAL questions are;

- whether you disagree with that plot line (as in HATE it) [not fun, no, not fun at all]

- whether you are just upset that your hero was losing

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mind controll Vs Mind Controll

 

The first was to tryan opposing mind controll effect but the roll was too low. Acording to the book however there is an optional rule that allows an unsuccessfull mind controll attempt to help by reducing the penalties to the break out roll and allows for annother break out roll.

 

I'm going to have to disagree with the posters to date, so fair warning. The above rule is, in fact, optional, and your GM was under no obligation to allow any effect whatsoever. I would, however, expect that any attempts to break a victim of your own Mind COntrol power using the same tactic would be treated in the same way. I assume that tactic has no previously been utilized in the campaign - if it was, and was applied in a different fashion, I concur that is inappropriate.

 

I had read that changing the situation so as to heighten the level of effect needed to controll the brick would cause an immediate breakout roll to follow. My mentalist has an Aid 4d6 any one charecteristic at a time which I used to aid the Brick's Ego. This caused the brick's ego to go up from 10 to 18 (good Dice' date=' My Precious). Saw said that this did not change the situation as a result did not grant the break out roll. I wholeheartedly disagree with this decision and would like to hear your thoughts.[/quote']

 

Here, I think you are DEAD WRONG (again, with the caveat that this is not an established campaign ground rule through prior use). A "change to the situation so as to heighten the level of effect" means that the Mind Control previously required, say, Ego +10, but the situation has changed such that it now requires Ego +20 or Ego +30.

 

For example, Hypnos mind controls the Grim Avenger of Justice to attack a villain. This is something GA would't mind doing anyway, so it just takes an Ego roll. The "villain" rips off his mask, revealing...the GAJ's younger sister, whom he dearly loves and has an Absolute Psych limit to Protect. Suddenly, the MC requires Ego +30. That is a change in the situation.

 

Your action only changed the ego roll. I would rule that the actual MC roll should be compared to the Brick's new Ego to assess whether the level of effect is still covered by the roll, and to reassess any penalties to the breakout roll. As well, of course, the Brick's ego roll is now 2 better. But, assuming the roll is still enough to keep the desired effect, I would not grant the Brick an immediate breakout roll. The situation has not changed.

[Guest The JeRQ]

Re: Mind controll Vs Mind Controll

 

The REAL questions are;

- whether you disagree with that plot line (as in HATE it) [not fun, no, not fun at all]

- whether you are just upset that your hero was losing

In all honesty I was mainly upset that I was trying to find a creative solution and it seemed as if the GM was unswervingly devoted to the story line (in cirtain circumstances this is a good thing). admittedly I am not the best loser. I did think of annother possible way to remedy the situation however, I could have used mind controll to induce a temporary phobia about hitting my charecter thus making this action something that the brick was violently opposed to and raising it to EGO +30 level. It would seem that hindsight is indeed 20/20.

[Agent X]

Re: Mind controll Vs Mind Controll

 

I'm going to have to disagree with the posters to date' date=' so fair warning. The above rule is, in fact, optional, and your GM was under no obligation to allow any effect whatsoever. I would, however, expect that any attempts to break a victim of your own Mind COntrol power using the same tactic would be treated in the same way. I assume that tactic has no previously been utilized in the campaign - if it was, and was applied in a different fashion, I concur that is inappropriate.[/quote'] Yep, it's an optional rule. If it's not used in the campaign, I see your point.

 

Here, I think you are DEAD WRONG (again, with the caveat that this is not an established campaign ground rule through prior use). A "change to the situation so as to heighten the level of effect" means that the Mind Control previously required, say, Ego +10, but the situation has changed such that it now requires Ego +20 or Ego +30.

 

For example, Hypnos mind controls the Grim Avenger of Justice to attack a villain. This is something GA would't mind doing anyway, so it just takes an Ego roll. The "villain" rips off his mask, revealing...the GAJ's younger sister, whom he dearly loves and has an Absolute Psych limit to Protect. Suddenly, the MC requires Ego +30. That is a change in the situation.

 

Your action only changed the ego roll. I would rule that the actual MC roll should be compared to the Brick's new Ego to assess whether the level of effect is still covered by the roll, and to reassess any penalties to the breakout roll. As well, of course, the Brick's ego roll is now 2 better. But, assuming the roll is still enough to keep the desired effect, I would not grant the Brick an immediate breakout roll. The situation has not changed.

I would reroll. Your ruling could require everyone to keep track of each and every roll's result and that's just too much to think about when you are trying to kick butt.

[Agent X]

Re: Mind controll Vs Mind Controll

 

In all honesty I was mainly upset that I was trying to find a creative solution and it seemed as if the GM was unswervingly devoted to the story line (in cirtain circumstances this is a good thing). admittedly I am not the best loser. I did think of annother possible way to remedy the situation however' date=' I could have used mind controll to induce a temporary phobia about hitting my charecter thus making this action something that the brick was violently opposed to and raising it to EGO +30 level. It would seem that hindsight is indeed 20/20.[/quote']It's a mark of a good GM when they encourage creative approaches to problems. You would have had the opportunity to be rewarded for your actions in many of the games that my friends GM.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mind controll Vs Mind Controll

 

I would reroll. Your ruling could require everyone to keep track of each and every roll's result and that's just too much to think about when you are trying to kick butt.

 

You have to keep track of the Mind Control roll anyway to know the poenalty to the breakout roll. If I was only keeping track of "he got Ego +20 with a -4 to the breakout roll", I'd just modify the penalty by two for +8 Ego (and give the player the benefit of the doubt that it wasn't, say, Ego + 44 and should only change the penalty by 1).

 

I'd probably have jotted the MC roll by the character on my combat tracking sheet anyway.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mind controll Vs Mind Controll

 

By the way, the perspective that the GM is out to screw the player over is a bit lost on me. I assume he's using a screen. If he was really out to screw you over, it would be way easier to just roll 3d6 behind the screen and say "nice try, but he blew the roll". Why behind the screen? "Because you guys don't know the modifiers".

 

This would also set a precedent for those same tactics generating a breakout roll against your mind control, so it would be far more effective in screwing you over.

[Agent X]

Re: Mind controll Vs Mind Controll

 

By the way, the perspective that the GM is out to screw the player over is a bit lost on me. I assume he's using a screen. If he was really out to screw you over, it would be way easier to just roll 3d6 behind the screen and say "nice try, but he blew the roll". Why behind the screen? "Because you guys don't know the modifiers".

 

This would also set a precedent for those same tactics generating a breakout roll against your mind control, so it would be far more effective in screwing you over.

If SAW is using the optional rule for breakout why wait until the next scheduled breakout roll, when the change is immediate - a la the contested mind control. If a character's will is bolstered by the power of another why wouldn't that constitute an immediate challenge to the mind control power?

[Guest The JeRQ]

Re: Mind controll Vs Mind Controll

 

Does anyone agree with me that the opposing rolls should be compared by how much effect over ego + mods and not total naked effect? EX. the brick is mind controlled with a 12d6 roll of 42, he has an EGO of 10 and is ordered to attack his teammate. I think this would be at least an EGO +20 effect making the command successful. An opposing mind controll attack of 10d6 / 32 is used by annother player to ignore the previous order. This I belive would be a even EGO roll due to the fact that the player would not mind following this order. The ammount of effect over the desired ammount would be higher but the total naked effect would be lower. Which result would you follow? Does the players current state of mind under the controll change once he is controlled, changing the second command to a +20 or +30 level?

[Guest The JeRQ]

Re: Mind controll Vs Mind Controll

 

By the way' date=' the perspective that the GM is out to screw the player over is a bit lost on me.QUOTE']

I don't think SAW was out to screw the player, I think it has more to do with a little too rigid devotion to the plot. (again in some cases this is a good thing)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mind controll Vs Mind Controll

 

If SAW is using the optional rule for breakout why wait until the next scheduled breakout roll' date=' when the change is immediate - a la the contested mind control. If a character's will is bolstered by the power of another why wouldn't that constitute an immediate challenge to the mind control power?[/quote']

 

No question there should have been a breakout roll from the second mind control if SAW is using the optional rule. My point was solely that it is an optional rule, and as such hus choice whether to use it (a choice which needs to be consistently applied).

 

I don't have the book in front of me, but my recollection is that the immediate breakout roll occurs if the effect required by the Mind Control changes, not any time there is any change which would impact on the breakout roll. I could be wrong - maybe someone with their books handy can provide a page reference?

 

I'm not a big fan of imposing more brekout rolls on mental powers. Frankly, they are already hard enough to get an effective lock with. You need to hit, then roll effect, then if successful, there's an immediate chance for opponent to break out. Slap a bunch more restrictions on these effects and the egoist may as well save his points and just buy more Ego Attack (or mental paralysis).

[Agent X]

Re: Mind controll Vs Mind Controll

 

No question there should have been a breakout roll from the second mind control if SAW is using the optional rule. My point was solely that it is an optional rule, and as such hus choice whether to use it (a choice which needs to be consistently applied).

 

I don't have the book in front of me, but my recollection is that the immediate breakout roll occurs if the effect required by the Mind Control changes, not any time there is any change which would impact on the breakout roll. I could be wrong - maybe someone with their books handy can provide a page reference?

 

I'm not a big fan of imposing more brekout rolls on mental powers. Frankly, they are already hard enough to get an effective lock with. You need to hit, then roll effect, then if successful, there's an immediate chance for opponent to break out. Slap a bunch more restrictions on these effects and the egoist may as well save his points and just buy more Ego Attack (or mental paralysis).

I understand your concern about the problems of using Mind Control. However, it's one of those powers that better not be consistently effective for a long term or it makes the game "no fun" which is the greatest of sins.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Mind controll Vs Mind Controll

 

I think SAW was being a little harsh with the first tactic, but not technically incorrect.

 

However, I must agree with Hugh that the second tactic would do nothing immediately, but it would help on the brick's next breakout roll. Simply increasing the target's EGO doesn't change the situation. Try a Mental Illusion that makes you appear to be the target's mother. That would change the situation.

 

But back to the first tactic: If The Bad Guy gets 42 points of MC effect on the 10 EGO brick to do an EGO+20 control, he's exceded the necessary level by 12. If you want to undo that, you should have to overcome that level. He now wants to attack you - that's what the mind control does. Not attacking you is not a EGO+0 level any more. It really isn't fair to let 42 points of effect be negated by 32 points of effect, although it might help a little. What if you had 20d6 MC and rolled EGO+60 against someone, and someone's buddy then broke him out with a mere 3d6 MC and the command "Act like you normally do" achieving flat EGO?

 

Cumulative could also help in this situation, so that your lower points of effect could gradually add up to be enough to negate the mind control.

 

I love Mentalists and deal with these kinds of situations all the time. I try to be very careful not to make them either too powerful or too weak.

[Agent X]

Re: Mind controll Vs Mind Controll

 

To me, raising the ego of someone under mind control is changing the "state of things." This assumes that the character being mind controlled is, at some level of consciousness or subconsciousness, is struggling against the control. I won't say that Hugh and Phil are wrong but I will say that their perspective is more oriented to a game mechanic in place and mine is oriented toward sfx.

[Vondy]

Re: Mind controll Vs Mind Controll

 

To me' date=' raising the ego of someone under mind control is changing the "state of things." This assumes that the character being mind controlled is, at some level of consciousness or subconsciousness, is struggling against the control. I won't say that Hugh and Phil are wrong but I will say that their perspective is more oriented to a game mechanic in place and mine is oriented toward sfx.[/quote']

I tend to agree - it should at least allow for a fresh breakout roll.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mind controll Vs Mind Controll

 

To me' date=' raising the ego of someone under mind control is changing the "state of things." This assumes that the character being mind controlled is, at some level of consciousness or subconsciousness, is struggling against the control. I won't say that Hugh and Phil are wrong but I will say that their perspective is more oriented to a game mechanic in place and mine is oriented toward sfx.[/quote']

 

Now I have my book. p 131 "If a character is put under mind control at a given level, and the situation later changes to require a higher level of Mind Control, then the character gets the chance to make another Breakout Roll with a +2 bonus to his EGO roll per level of change on the table." An example follows this.

 

Reading through the discussion of breakout rolls in Mind Control, this and forced to violate psych lim's are the only items which provide for an extra breakout roll.

 

The rules are quite clear. I'm not saying your approach is unreasonable, but it is a house rule overriding the rules as written. SAW followed the rules as written in determining the ego AID did not grant an extra breakout roll.

[Agent X]

Re: Mind controll Vs Mind Controll

 

Now I have my book. p 131 "If a character is put under mind control at a given level, and the situation later changes to require a higher level of Mind Control, then the character gets the chance to make another Breakout Roll with a +2 bonus to his EGO roll per level of change on the table." An example follows this.

 

Reading through the discussion of breakout rolls in Mind Control, this and forced to violate psych lim's are the only items which provide for an extra breakout roll.

 

The rules are quite clear. I'm not saying your approach is unreasonable, but it is a house rule overriding the rules as written. SAW followed the rules as written in determining the ego AID did not grant an extra breakout roll.

It's a pretty common house rule in these parts.

[Magmarock]

Re: Mind controll Vs Mind Controll

 

To me' date=' raising the ego of someone under mind control is changing the "state of things." This assumes that the character being mind controlled is, at some level of consciousness or subconsciousness, is struggling against the control. I won't say that Hugh and Phil are wrong but I will say that their perspective is more oriented to a game mechanic in place and mine is oriented toward sfx.[/quote']

 

 

 

I agree. The is the equivalent of helping someone recover faster. It's a mental 'slap-in-the-face' and should assist the mentally controlled target.

 

 

Mags

[Dust Raven]

Re: Mind controll Vs Mind Controll

 

Does anyone agree with me that the opposing rolls should be compared by how much effect over ego + mods and not total naked effect? EX. the brick is mind controlled with a 12d6 roll of 42' date=' he has an EGO of 10 and is ordered to attack his teammate. I think this would be at least an EGO +20 effect making the command successful. An opposing mind controll attack of 10d6 / 32 is used by annother player to ignore the previous order. This I belive would be a even EGO roll due to the fact that the player would not mind following this order. The ammount of effect over the desired ammount would be higher but the total naked effect would be lower. Which result would you follow? Does the players current state of mind under the controll change once he is controlled, changing the second command to a +20 or +30 level?[/quote']

I would disagree. That's not how using a mental power to counter another mental power works. You have to roll a greater total than the other mentalist (but you can use any mental power to do this, so pick the one with the most dice).

 

Now, if you aren't trying to counter the mind control, and just want to give a command of your own, it would work almost like you say. You won't counter the other mind control, but give a contradicting command. If you EGO+ effect was better, he stands a better chance of failing that EGO roll by more and performing your command instead of the other one. This would almost require an EGO roll every phase (though not to breakout, but using the penalties to reflect the strength of the command). Whichever command he fails the roll by more on is the command he acts on that phase.

 

And then you end up with a comrade waffling around the battlefield, who'll probably be very confused until he breaks out of one or both of the mind controlls.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Mind controll Vs Mind Controll

 

To me' date=' raising the ego of someone under mind control is changing the "state of things." This assumes that the character being mind controlled is, at some level of consciousness or subconsciousness, is struggling against the control. I won't say that Hugh and Phil are wrong but I will say that their perspective is more oriented to a game mechanic in place and mine is oriented toward sfx.[/quote']

Raising his EGO would only increase his chances of making his next breakout roll. It doesn't change how the character perceives the comand or it's level of effect. You are right it that it would help, but it would only help him struggle, not give him a sudden flash of what am I doing!!! to break him out instantly.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Mind controll Vs Mind Controll

 

The JeRQ,

 

(kewl name, btw) Here's what I'm seing. The GM did something you didn't like, and you attempted to counter him using rules. That's like trying to put out a fire with a flamethrower. The GM is the rules. You can't win. Ever.

 

Doesn't mean he wasn't railroading the plot, just that you used the wrong tool.

 

Now, I can't speak for SAW, but I help my players out a little when they need it. I won't give them the tactics, but I'll answer any rules question. Next time, just tell SAW what you want to do, then ask him how you should accomplish it. He'll should tell you his personally approved and sanctioned rule for it and if you succeed, well, it's his rule. If he won't help you, well then... maybe it's important to the story (or SAW's the jerk and just screwing the characters, but how should I know?).

[SAW]

Re: Mind controll Vs Mind Controll

 

the Jerq told me he had started this post and I forgot about it, so I will now explain my side (i.e. what really happened ).

 

I was running "Sharper Than a Serpents Tooth" and as an interesting add-on I decided to give COIL's leader (King Cobra I think) the ability to No Range Mind-control the plague victims. None of my players knew this(as it should be). My co-GM (who was running the brick in question) came to me with the idea of possibly infecting his character. Being the evil GM that I am I of course readily agreed. I knew it would eventually come to the point where the brick would be controled to kill her teammates. I also saw an opportunity to advance a plot thread that I had been running for several months.

 

In my mind the solution was not to break the mind-control but to cure the brick of the plague (which was done by Dr. Destroyer's newest head minion "Death", thus advancing my plot thread). While I may have been rigid in my thinking on how things should go I did give JeRQ's ideas due consideration and I discussed them with my co-GM (as I do with all rules questions) and we both agreed that they weren't going to work.

 

I don't believe an increase in EGO changes a situation for effect roll purposes and I did adjust the victim's breakout roll (which admitedly was almost immpossible to hit; she had a 10 EGO to start with and it was drained down by two days of battling the COIL virus). Of course I realized later that JeRQ had purchased Healing not Aid. No big deal.

 

SAW

 

P.S. The only rolls I make behind a screen are to-hit rolls. That way I can fudge for characters who have been getting pasted or against cocky characters who havn't been touched.

[zornwil]

Re: Mind controll Vs Mind Controll

 

No question there should have been a breakout roll from the second mind control if SAW is using the optional rule. My point was solely that it is an optional rule, and as such hus choice whether to use it (a choice which needs to be consistently applied).

 

I don't have the book in front of me, but my recollection is that the immediate breakout roll occurs if the effect required by the Mind Control changes, not any time there is any change which would impact on the breakout roll. I could be wrong - maybe someone with their books handy can provide a page reference?

 

I'm not a big fan of imposing more brekout rolls on mental powers. Frankly, they are already hard enough to get an effective lock with. You need to hit, then roll effect, then if successful, there's an immediate chance for opponent to break out. Slap a bunch more restrictions on these effects and the egoist may as well save his points and just buy more Ego Attack (or mental paralysis).

As an aside, I ignore the first breakout roll entirely, there is no such thing, even though I still haven't put that on my rules page (I need to do that). As a matter of fact, in general, I'm not all that assiduous on breakout rolls.