Guest bblackmoor Posted August 10, 2004 Report Share Posted August 10, 2004 Re: If magic cost full price... Incidentally, there's another option, which I have considered but have never actually used (nor seen used). That is to allow magicians access to magic for "free", just like blade-swingers do. In practice, this would require the character to have the appropriate familiarities and talents, and it would require the GM to put at least as much effort (but probably several times more effort) into enumerating the available spells as the basic game does into enumerating weapons and armor and other equipment. I haven't seen a GM put forth this much effort, and I have not (yet) been willing to put forth that much effort myself. I tend to think it'd resolve the various balance problems people have brought up in this thread, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted August 10, 2004 Report Share Posted August 10, 2004 Re: If magic cost full price... Incidentally, there's another option, which I have considered but have never actually used (nor seen used). That is to allow magicians access to magic for "free", just like blade-swingers do. In practice, this would require the character to have the appropriate familiarities and talents, and it would require the GM to put at least as much effort (but probably several times more effort) into enumerating the available spells as the basic game does into enumerating weapons and armor and other equipment. I haven't seen a GM put forth this much effort, and I have not (yet) been willing to put forth that much effort myself. I tend to think it'd resolve the various balance problems people have brought up in this thread, though. Cough: http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/GreyHEROContent/PackageDeals/totemicPackages.shtml http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/GreyHEROContent/PackageDeals/piedragemasPackages.shtml Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bblackmoor Posted August 10, 2004 Report Share Posted August 10, 2004 Re: If magic cost full price... Cough... Yes, truly: that's a good start. I'd probably heavily leverage your work if I were to tackle such a project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted August 10, 2004 Report Share Posted August 10, 2004 Re: If magic cost full price... >>> Bingo: if you give mages and non-mages the same points, and make them adhere to the same rules, but don't require non-mages to pay for weapons and equipment, the non-mages dominate. Period. The only way the situation you describe could take place is if you gave the mages more points or you imposed a house rule which swung the pendulum in the mages' favor.<<< Nope, not all. Quite the reverse, in fact. Everybody operated under exactly the same rules, including access to free equipment for all, in all of the games I described. I think the difference in experiences may lie in GM'ing style, since KS has clearly run FH games and has had different experiences than those I have had. Part of it might be the high starting point level, though I doubt it - one PC in my longest running FH game topped out at just under 500 points and some of the others in the same group were in the 400 point range - all with "pay at full cost" magic. Looking at the way he designs magic systems, KS has put a lot of effort in balancing the various magic systems. They are very detailed and have specific limitations, and his NPC mage writeups tend to be "mage-only" - meaning that a substantial amount of their points are invested in magic-use. By contrast, I like to take a fairly free hand with my players (within reason), which may explain why in most games (all, actually) we have usually seen mages kitted out in armour, with swords and bows. Their armour tends to be less than those who specialise in HTH combat, because on average mages tended to have a little less STR than fighters, and their CSLs were lower, but as noted by another poster, combining those weapons and armour with Aid spells, Invisibility, Regeneration, etc and they were more than a match for non-magical swordswingers - plus, in general they had other capabilities that no fighter could match. It's also fair to say that most of the players in those games were Hero system mavens who could work up a character on a sheet of paper with no reference materials, with no trouble at all. And what they (and me too, as a player ) tended to do was to use magic to leverage their free gear, making it MORE effective - not less. I'm perfectly willing to accept that in some games, paying full cost for magic might be crippling, but it is it by no means a general rule. cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted August 10, 2004 Report Share Posted August 10, 2004 Re: If magic cost full price... Yes, if powergamed specifically to be a self-buffer (which just sounds messed up ), a magic user can get out of control. Personally I clamp down on powergamers and encourage in-flavor in-concept play. In a less immersive environment where players just take whatever they like, primarily for purposes of min/maxing then _any_ option that allows players to have access to Power whether via "magic", "psionics", or special "abilities" can be abused by players. Of course, that sort of situation tends to form it's own natural balance however -- since if all characters are doing it then it more or less evens out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted August 11, 2004 Report Share Posted August 11, 2004 Re: If magic cost full price... Personally I clamp down on powergamers and encourage in-flavor in-concept play. In a less immersive environment where players just take whatever they like, primarily for purposes of min/maxing then _any_ option that allows players to have access to Power whether via "magic", "psionics", or special "abilities" can be abused by players. Of course, that sort of situation tends to form it's own natural balance however -- since if all characters are doing it then it more or less evens out. Ah, but a *good* powergamer can generate an in-flavour, in-concept character that still takes shameless advantage of the rules. Seriously, some of my best players - and also interestingly, among the best GM's I have played with - have been exactly this type. As players (in game) they tend to remember details and plotlines, connect the dots, make interesting and unexpected decisions and throw up new plotlines by the cartload. As GMs they tend to detail their game worlds, design interesting plots and memorable NPCs - and they generally run well, because they know the rules so well there's no stress involved in the mechanics, so they can focus on story and NPC activity. And as players (out of game) they sweat the details of character creation - all for the same reason: they are *involved* in the game. I've been lucky, having had three stable gaming groups dominated by this kind of player/GM, for a total of about 12 years of weekly gaming goodness. So I tend to go into detail about the gaming world before player character design starts and lay down guidelines on the kind of things I want to see (and more importantly, not see). In-game flavour is crucial, for me. And as noted, with competent players, paying full cost for magic does not prevent comptent - even deadly - mages. It's not, I will admit, my favoured system, since it more or less guarantees mages with a very small number of spells (those who try to buy a whole bunch of spells will be dealt with by "ahem" natural selection ). But the idea that it's not a viable system is directly contradicted by years of experience. Oh, BTW, KS I haven't forgotten about your mail - I've been playing around with the magic systems, building various characters and so on - I'll get back to you, I've just been slowed down by buying a new computer recently meaning I have been *cough* testing its limits to see how fast it really is cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Gillen Posted August 11, 2004 Report Share Posted August 11, 2004 Re: If magic cost full price... You definitely end up with fewer spells. That isn't necessarily a bad thing. I was definitely annoyed when I saw that mages got a break under most spell systems' date=' but no mention was made of, say, paladin powers getting a points break... I don't see any reason for mages to get a break other than 'they're mages.' That doesn't sound right to me.[/quote'] Think of the Paladin powers as being "spell-like" (in D&D 3 terms) with few of the inherent Limitations of actual spells. In practice, charging full price for spells (which I did in my last FH game, loosely adapted from AD&D) made character advancement a bit too painful compared to warrior advancement (and again, the argument was raised, 'why do I have to pay for X Attack and Force Field when the Warrior gets his weapons and armor for no points?'). The result was that being a spellcaster was a very unpopular choice- not at all what I'd intended for a High Fantasy/AD&D type game. I find the Turakian system to be a very effective compromise. And, no, it's not *necessarily* a bad thing to have expensive (full-price) spellcasting; this means either fewer spells overall, or much more limited and ritual spells. That in itself affects the flavor of the setting. The first FH game I played in was way, way back before 4th Edition Champions, and the inherent limitations of THAT magic system meant that most of us were Warriors and Rogues. Which IS in keeping with most classic adventure fiction if not the "D&D" standard. JG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Gillen Posted August 11, 2004 Report Share Posted August 11, 2004 Re: If magic cost full price... I do see it as a problem. It essentially gives a big discount to a single SFX (Magic Spells), which is unfair. I really dont like the divide by 3 "Turakian" Magic. It blows every framework out of the water, and there's no way for a non-spellcaster to compete with that, really, and the longer play progresses the more apparant it would become since each 1 xp the MU gets translates into 3 character points worth of magic if they choose to spend it on boosting their power. The divide by 3 could be made to work in some settings, but it would take a more even handed discounting for non-Spells. However, its incorporation as the defacto official Magic System (being the Magic System for the default Fantasy Setting) is somewhat off putting to me. When The Valdorian Age comes out we should have a point of comparison. JG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted August 11, 2004 Report Share Posted August 11, 2004 Re: If magic cost full price... Ah, but a *good* powergamer can generate an in-flavour, in-concept character that still takes shameless advantage of the rules. SNIP cheers, Mark Personally, I just say "NO" to overly abusive concepts generally. My players tend not to test my limits however because I also have the habit of giving them enough rope to hang themselves with if they insist on feeding their inner munchkin. I make it very clear that the goal isnt to compete with one another for who can have the most powerful character -- the goal is to play the game and have fun. I have a laundry list of methods for dealing with players that dont quite seem to get that. Internally I will also adjust to correct for any loopholes that were previously exploited. In generaly, what I like most about the HERO System is it's robustness. I find that unlike some other games where one good loophole can make a character uber, in the HERO System every character has at least one Achilles Heel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted August 11, 2004 Report Share Posted August 11, 2004 Re: If magic cost full price... Oh, BTW, KS I haven't forgotten about your mail - I've been playing around with the magic systems, building various characters and so on - I'll get back to you, I've just been slowed down by buying a new computer recently meaning I have been *cough* testing its limits to see how fast it really is cheers, Mark Excellent. Im leaving this weekend for a European vacation, so Ill be offline for about a month any way -- so no rush Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted August 11, 2004 Report Share Posted August 11, 2004 Re: If magic cost full price... I've found that /2, /3 and /5 work out quite well where magic is supposed to be blatantly powerful. And even then the Fighters (W/their Katana in L5R and there rapier & pistol in steam punk) still wupped ass and were a threat to everyone. The way damage works in hero, with hit loc and body/stun, my sword never loses effectiveness; so long as the GM watches the resistant defenses. Seriously how many people complain in D&D about the difference betweeen a 10th level fighter and a 10th level wizard/sorceror. In hero though the Fighter character not only stands a chance, he is a legitemit threat to the magic user. I think all of the options brought up will work very well in the hands of an attentive GM. I like the simple and flexable divide by X option. Others like the power frameworks, some like talents and skills and many like to charge full point value. Cool they all work and are all legitimatly "hero". WHat a wonderful system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Gillen Posted August 11, 2004 Report Share Posted August 11, 2004 Re: If magic cost full price... The way damage works in hero, with hit loc and body/stun, my sword never loses effectiveness; so long as the GM watches the resistant defenses. Seriously how many people complain in D&D about the difference betweeen a 10th level fighter and a 10th level wizard/sorceror. In hero though the Fighter character not only stands a chance, he is a legitemit threat to the magic user. Excellent point. The whole concept of "Hit Dice" is a balancing factor in D&D, and a rather skewed one at that. JG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted August 11, 2004 Report Share Posted August 11, 2004 Re: If magic cost full price... An even better point if I knew how to spell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted August 12, 2004 Report Share Posted August 12, 2004 Re: If magic cost full price... Excellent. Im leaving this weekend for a European vacation' date=' so Ill be offline for about a month any way -- so no rush [/quote'] Sounds fun: if you're going to be in Copenhagen, and are interested, drop me a line or call me on 28182593 - we could maybe meet for a beer or show you around. cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted August 12, 2004 Report Share Posted August 12, 2004 Re: If magic cost full price... Sounds fun: if you're going to be in Copenhagen, and are interested, drop me a line or call me on 28182593 - we could maybe meet for a beer or show you around. cheers, Mark Sounds like it would be fun, but I wont be near Copenhagen -- 1 week in Prague visiting my wife's family, and then 2 weeks in the Canary Islands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bblackmoor Posted August 12, 2004 Report Share Posted August 12, 2004 Re: If magic cost full price... 1 week in Prague visiting my wife's family... Oh, man. I love Prague. You are so lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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