Bag of Rats Help

[badger3k]

I've been playing around with my FH campaign stuff, and came up with a problem. As a lark, I took the "bag of rats" idea and wanted to make something like it.

 

For those who don't know, the bag o'rats idea is a misinterpretation/misreading and abuse of a few rules in D&D 3/3.5. There is a great cleave ability that lets you keep making blows, IF you kill your opponent. The "Follow Through Attack" FH p106 - an HKA with trigger, is the first feat (cleave). This (great cleave) ability would work like such:

 

Attack target, kill it - free attack on another within 5'

Attack 2nd target, kill it - another free attack

Attack 3rd target, kill it - you get the idea

Attack 4th target, miss or do not kill it, free attacks stop

 

The abuse comes in when you take a bag of rats, drop them around you, and, since they move, you get attacks of oppotunity on them. With these easy kills, you start storing up attacks. You kill 10 rats, you get 10 free attacks.

 

It doesn't work that way, despite what some want to think, but I thought as a power, an attack like this might be interesting once in a while (the END cost could potentially be very severe). I envisioned an attack sequence where for each kill you make, you store up an "attack" until you release it. Since the system doesn't work like D&D for actions, I thought something like a SPD aid

 

Bag o Rats: Aid SPD 4d6 (standard effect: 12 points), Can Add Maximum Of 60 Points, Trigger (Only when wielder kills something; +1/4) (72 Active Points); Only for SPD used to attack (-1), Self Only (-1/2)

 

real cost 29 points.

 

Ok, as an ability it is not really effective, but I can bring down the cost by making it a spell. It allows me to add +1 SPD for each creature killed. The SPD would last for several turns, depending on how many he killed. 5 kills would put the characters speed up by 6, which will last 12 turns, if I figured it right (dropping 1 Speed on the second turn, then one per two turns thereafter - if I figured it out right). I went with -1 for the attack-only since the Grond write-up uses -1 for "punches only".

 

While it is not exactly right, it seems to be close. Does anybody else have any ideas on how to work this out? The more I think of it, the more this sounds like a good power for an undead or berserker-type character, maybe a martial artist who lives off the souls of those he kills....

 

I started this idea as a semi-joke, but the more I think of it, the more I like the potential

 

To clarify, in D&D, all the attacks occur in the same round, and then the attacks go away. Maybe change the power to lose 1 SPD for each attack made?

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Bag of Rats Help

 

I've been playing around with my FH campaign stuff, and came up with a problem. As a lark, I took the "bag of rats" idea and wanted to make something like it.

 

For those who don't know, the bag o'rats idea is a misinterpretation/misreading and abuse of a few rules in D&D 3/3.5. There is a great cleave ability that lets you keep making blows, IF you kill your opponent. The "Follow Through Attack" FH p106 - an HKA with trigger, is the first feat (cleave). This (great cleave) ability would work like such:

 

Attack target, kill it - free attack on another within 5'

Attack 2nd target, kill it - another free attack

Attack 3rd target, kill it - you get the idea

Attack 4th target, miss or do not kill it, free attacks stop

 

The abuse comes in when you take a bag of rats, drop them around you, and, since they move, you get attacks of oppotunity on them. With these easy kills, you start storing up attacks. You kill 10 rats, you get 10 free attacks.

 

It doesn't work that way, despite what some want to think, but I thought as a power, an attack like this might be interesting once in a while (the END cost could potentially be very severe). I envisioned an attack sequence where for each kill you make, you store up an "attack" until you release it. Since the system doesn't work like D&D for actions, I thought something like a SPD aid

 

Bag o Rats: Aid SPD 4d6 (standard effect: 12 points), Can Add Maximum Of 60 Points, Trigger (Only when wielder kills something; +1/4) (72 Active Points); Only for SPD used to attack (-1), Self Only (-1/2)

 

real cost 29 points.

 

Ok, as an ability it is not really effective, but I can bring down the cost by making it a spell. It allows me to add +1 SPD for each creature killed. The SPD would last for several turns, depending on how many he killed. 5 kills would put the characters speed up by 6, which will last 12 turns, if I figured it right (dropping 1 Speed on the second turn, then one per two turns thereafter - if I figured it out right). I went with -1 for the attack-only since the Grond write-up uses -1 for "punches only".

 

While it is not exactly right, it seems to be close. Does anybody else have any ideas on how to work this out? The more I think of it, the more this sounds like a good power for an undead or berserker-type character, maybe a martial artist who lives off the souls of those he kills....

 

I started this idea as a semi-joke, but the more I think of it, the more I like the potential

 

To clarify, in D&D, all the attacks occur in the same round, and then the attacks go away. Maybe change the power to lose 1 SPD for each attack made?

 

 

Uhm, isn't this just autofire on any attack with a few limitations? Extra SPD would let you move and stuff, and let you use other weapons.

[UltraRob]

Re: Bag of Rats Help

 

Uhm' date=' isn't this just autofire on any attack with a few limitations? Extra SPD would let you move and stuff, and let you use other weapons.[/quote']

 

I was thinking the same thing...This could be set up as a naked autofire advantage on one or two primary attacks that only kicks in if the owner kills something. Say, the phase or three after the owner kills something they go a little berserker and get autofire attacks instead of normal ones.

 

I admit, the idea of a villian who gets faster the more souls he eats sounds cool too, but that literally is an Aid to Speed like you outlined above, and that won't just generate extra attacks, it will make the villian faster overall as a whole. Which is also a pretty cool image and idea.

 

Rob

[Steve Long]

Re: Bag of Rats Help

 

Wouldn't it be more fun to throw the bag of rats at your opponent and watch them attack him? There's some prime dungeon entertainment opportunities being missed here.

[lemming]

Re: Bag of Rats Help

 

Wouldn't it be more fun to throw the bag of rats at your opponent and watch them attack him? There's some prime dungeon entertainment opportunities being missed here.

That could work pretty well as a distraction. Kind of like the "What's New?" bring a cat with you.

 

3d6 Entangle, No Def, AOE 1 hex, Does not restrict DCV, perhaps.

Maybe with 1d6 EB, penetrating, AOE linked in.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Bag of Rats Help

 

That could work pretty well as a distraction. Kind of like the "What's New?" bring a cat with you.

 

3d6 Entangle, No Def, AOE 1 hex, Does not restrict DCV, perhaps.

Maybe with 1d6 EB, penetrating, AOE linked in.

 

That doesn't sound like a bagf of rats. More like a bag of lemmings, maybe?

 

COuldn't resist...bad Hugh! Bad!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Bag of Rats Help

 

For those who don't know, the bag o'rats idea is a misinterpretation/misreading and abuse of a few rules in D&D 3/3.5. There is a great cleave ability that lets you keep making blows, IF you kill your opponent.

 

The abuse comes in when you take a bag of rats, drop them around you, and, since they move, you get attacks of oppotunity on them. With these easy kills, you start storing up attacks. You kill 10 rats, you get 10 free attacks.

 

Actually, the mechanic used in 3.0 (but fails in 3.5) was to use Whirlwind Attack (which allows one attack on each opponent within 5'). Strike rat, kill it, use Great Cleave attack on real opponent; strike next rat; repeat.

 

3.5 "clarified" that WW Attack removes all other attacks in the round, including those granted by Great Cleave.

 

[The Attack of Opportunity aproach would fail anyway since you ponly get 1/round, 1+DEX modifier if you have a feat in that regard.]

[Wil Hyral]

Re: Bag of Rats Help

 

Someone actually wants to mimic the bag o' rats problem? I've been away from the wizards.com forums for too long...

 

Anyhow, it sounds okay, from what I read.

[lemming]

Re: Bag of Rats Help

 

That doesn't sound like a bagf of rats. More like a bag of lemmings, maybe?

 

COuldn't resist...bad Hugh! Bad!

Well, depending on special effects one could use hamsters, babies, spiders, etc...

 

Hmm, maybe you could tailor it to specific pych lims.

[badger3k]

Re: Bag of Rats Help

 

Actually, the mechanic used in 3.0 (but fails in 3.5) was to use Whirlwind Attack (which allows one attack on each opponent within 5'). Strike rat, kill it, use Great Cleave attack on real opponent; strike next rat; repeat.

 

3.5 "clarified" that WW Attack removes all other attacks in the round, including those granted by Great Cleave.

 

[The Attack of Opportunity aproach would fail anyway since you ponly get 1/round, 1+DEX modifier if you have a feat in that regard.]

 

Ahh - thank you - I'd never heard that part of it - everybody outlined it without going to that level of detail, apparently since it was around a long time before I bothered to pay attention to it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Bag of Rats Help

 

Well, depending on special effects one could use hamsters, babies, spiders, etc...

 

Hmm, maybe you could tailor it to specific pych lims.

 

Just add Variable Special Effects to your writeup and voila!

[badger3k]

Re: Bag of Rats Help

 

I was thinking the same thing...This could be set up as a naked autofire advantage on one or two primary attacks that only kicks in if the owner kills something. Say, the phase or three after the owner kills something they go a little berserker and get autofire attacks instead of normal ones.

 

I admit, the idea of a villian who gets faster the more souls he eats sounds cool too, but that literally is an Aid to Speed like you outlined above, and that won't just generate extra attacks, it will make the villian faster overall as a whole. Which is also a pretty cool image and idea.

 

Rob

 

After I looked at it, I added the soul eating option. I think I'll use that for a major villain I'm starting to flesh out. The only problem is that, unless I toss in npcs as fodder, he'd only get faster if he killed a pc (which is ok, but I only have 5 players. He'd max out and have nobody left to fight).

 

The autofire isn't an option I had considered. It's not exactly the same, but then again, neither is my version.

 

Thanks to all (and if anyone else adds anything, thanks too).