Stretching Question

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Stretching Question

 

By the by, I don't see Spider-man's webbing as Stretching at all but as a fine example of non-Indirect TK, examples of which are actually tough to come by. Every red-headed mutant seems to have massive, invisible, Indirect (can use thru Mind Scan) TK but hardly anyone has linear blast, issues from my body, visible TK.

 

........................................................................................................

 

"No, you need to buy Indirect to do that." "No, it's visible unless you buy it Invisible." Jean Grey's original 400 kg TK with all the mods cost her 75 real points!

 

TK is not, by default, invisible: TRUE

 

TK is not, by default, Indirect: FALSE

 

The description of Telekinesis notes that it has many of the same abilities as an Indirect power. This was asked some time ago on the Rules Questions board, and Steve noted that he could not think of an example of something an Indirect power could do which TK would not also do. If your TK is purely Direct, it should receive a limitation.

 

This makes a modicum of sense. "STR, Ranged (+1/2), no Figured (-1/2)" should cost 1 point for 1 STR.

 

"STR, Ranged (+1/2), fully indirect (+3/4), no figured (-1/2)" should cost 3 points per 2 STR, which TK does. Without this Indirect component, TK is massively overpriced.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Stretching Question

 

I would disagree that spidermans swinglines ( webs ) are the same as his webcasters as far as the focus rules for destruction go.

 

The FAQ discusses TK with a manifestation that can be attacked and destroyed (eg. hands of stone). It suggests these be treated like a focus (AP/5 = DEF, if a hit does BOD, it's broken), but of course the character can create new ones by activating his TK. The FAQ suggests a -1/4 limitation in this regard. That would seem to work reasonably well for swinging.

[zebediah]

Re: Stretching Question

 

One thing to note is that TK explicitly can't be used to move yourself around, or to "grab onto" a flying super and get dragged along. Thus it doesn't give the benefits of Swinging.

 

Swinging, in fact, appears to be Flight with a few limitations boiling down to "can only be used where there are tall structures to swing from," some level of "your control isn't precise as someone with full flying," and "people may be able to screw you by messing with your swinglines." But the basic power it's most similar to is Flight. This is seen in the fact that the swinglines, whatever they're made of, are pretty much special effect.

 

It's kind of like building throwing knives. There aren't mechanics for someone catching your knife in midair and using it as a handheld weapon, because, mechanically, there isn't anything there to grab.

[casualplayer]

Re: Stretching Question

 

Yeah, Hugh, I've done the math. If TK has inherent Indirect it's too cheap relative to STR; if it doesn't then it's a bad buy (except for the arbitrary prohibition against Ranged STR.) What can you do?

 

For my own sake, I house rule "No Free Lunch." No power comes with any bundled gunk. Who wants the grief of deleting Media Player every time they install Windows?

 

When I post I try to stay FRED-legal but I can't keep up with all the populist errata crud. I imagine people belly-ached enough that Desolid is now inherently Invisible because of the Pryde influence and the only reason why TK would have any level of inherent Indirect is pandering to the crowd. Everyone wants to be Phoenix and no one wants to pay for it.

 

So that it's not a complete thread hijack, I guess I would use TK Direct for Spidey. What disadvantage would you give for Direct: must issue from body? -1/2?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Stretching Question

 

You seem to be advocating the Nihilist version of Hero, anything not absoloutley paid for in points is illegal.

 

You struck me as more open minded than that. ( a swingline generates no effect on the object swung from, come on...)

I just don't believe in saying a Power does something just because the most common SFX of the Power would logically do it. As a rule (or, rather, a guideline), Swinging (not a swingling, but the Power Swinging) generates no effect on the object swung from. If it did, and always did, that eliminates dozens of possible SFX for Swinging. Of course, there's always the "something attaches to something else and you swing from it" aspect of Swinging, but that's hardly "effecting" the object swung from. Does it cause damage? Will the object collapse if you weigh too much? Well, no, it won't. Not a chance of it happening, because you aren't actually affecting it at all, you're just swinging from it. If you wanted to simulate these minor inconveniences, you can do so with a mild Side Effect.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Stretching Question

 

Yeah' date=' Hugh, I've done the math. If TK has inherent Indirect it's too cheap relative to STR; if it doesn't then it's a bad buy (except for the arbitrary prohibition against Ranged STR.) What can you do?[/quote']

 

I've yet to see a case that it's too cheap relative to STR. If you could buy Ranged STR, then 20 STR, ranged (+1/2), Indirect (+3/4) no figured (-1/2) costs 30 points. That's the exact cost of 20 STR TK, which has the added drawback that it doesn't add to STR.

 

Without the "indirect", Telekinesis is vastly overpriced. WIth it, I find it pretty much fits the mechanics perfectly YMMV.

 

For my own sake' date=' I house rule "No Free Lunch." No power comes with any bundled gunk. Who wants the grief of deleting Media Player every time they install Windows?[/quote']

 

Where do you draw the line? Do KA's do no Knockback? Do Ego Attacks become Visible? Am I prevented from building a wall with my Entangle? Can I spread my EB? All of these are bundled abilities. Heck, Aid is Absorb I don't have to get hit to use, Heal is an Aid with no fade rate and Transfer is just Aid and Drain linked.

 

I will agree that I would rather have Telekinesis cost 1 point/1 STR and be direct by default.

 

the only reason why TK would have any level of inherent Indirect is pandering to the crowd. Everyone wants to be Phoenix and no one wants to pay for it.

 

Maybe it has that because that's what the rules say, or because that's what a fair price mandates it have.

 

So that it's not a complete thread hijack' date=' I guess I would use TK Direct for Spidey. What disadvantage would you give for Direct: must issue from body? -1/2?[/quote']

 

That would eliminate the implied cost of Indirect, so that should do it. But that includes "must pass through all intervening space to reach target".

[schir1964]

Re: Stretching Question

 

I would disagree that spidermans swinglines ( webs ) are the same as his webcasters as far as the focus rules for destruction go.

Oh, well this is a different thing altogether then. What you are really saying is that SFX you have in mind doesn't match the mechanics of the Focus rules as far as the breaking part of it. I'm not sure exactly why it doesn't fit.

 

Please express the complete SFX of the webline as you would like it to function. Then we can go from there.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[MisterD]

Re: Stretching Question

 

I have a character I call SILK

 

I posted this here cause of slot 8 & 9

Here is his MP

 

Cost Powers END

50 Silk: Multipower, 75-point reserve, (75 Active Points); all slots Restrainable (-1/2)

Notes: Tommy can produse Silk Strands from his hands that last for 1 hour. When Tommy stops concentrating on them (Stops paying END) they starts to Bio-Degrade.

1u 1) Silk Armor: Armor (10 PD/10 ED) (30 Active Points); Restrainable (-1/2), Visible (-1/4), Nonpersistent (-1/4), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4) 3

2u 2) Ball of Silk: Energy Blast 8d6 (40 Active Points); Restrainable (-1/2), Limited Range (20"; -1/4) 4

3u 3) Silk Webbing: Entangle 5d6, 5 DEF (50 Active Points); Restrainable (-1/2), Limited Range (20"; -1/4) 5

3u 4) Silky Smooth Surface II: Entangle 4d6, 4 DEF, Personal Immunity (+1/4), Takes No Damage From Attacks All Attacks (+1/2) (70 Active Points); Vulnerable (to any attack that creates a physical effect which gives the victim something to grab hold of; -1/2), Restrainable (-1/2), Cannot Form Barriers (-1/4), Limited Range (20") (-1/4) 7

3u 5) Silk Blindfold: Sight Group Flash 5d6, No Normal Defense (defense is STR 30+ or web-proof eye coverings; +1) (50 Active Points); Restrainable (-1/2), Limited Range (20"; -1/4) 5

6m 6) Silky Smooth feet: Running +20" (6"/26" total), x4 Noncombat (45 Active Points); Restrainable (-1/2) 4

1u 7) Slick Skin: +30 STR (30 Active Points); No Figured Characteristics (-1/2), Only to escape grabs and hold (-1/2), Restrainable (-1/2) 3

2u 8) Silk Grab: Stretching 10" (50 Active Points); Cannot Do Damage (-1/2), Restrainable (-1/2), Always Direct (-1/4), Range Modifier Applies (-1/4) 5

3m 9) Silk Line: Swinging 15", x4 Noncombat (20 Active Points); Restrainable (-1/2) 2

 

Based on this thread. I think I may alter it to OIF (He can always make more silk BUT the silk itself can be targeted for attack.)

 

Any comments (Note he produces the silk. It does not come from a web shooter) so the slots get the limitation, not the Pool unless I am wrong.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Stretching Question

 

If a Limitation affects all the slots in a Framework, you can put the Limitation of the reserve as well. I see this is how you've already done it with Restrainable.

 

I like what you've got there, MisterD. I wouldn't go with OIF. A Focus means the Powers can be taken away, not just nullified or attacked. The Restrainable Limitation does exactly what you want it to. There are things that will prevent the use of the power (being grabbed, entangled or directly attacking the Silk).