Power Armor EC Question

[proditor]

So a player in my game has the following concept. Similar to Iron Man, it's a suit that is non-rigid and almost of cloth-like flexibility until reinforced by the power fields generated by the suit in "on" mode. Then it's functionally bulletproof up to about a Ma-deuce and has a lot of other funky little doo-dads. The base suit has some Kevlar in the outer layer and some ballistic cloth as the backing. So even when "off" it provides some minimal bullet resistance. This is roughly what he wanted to do, I was curious if it sounded Kosher.

 

Armor (6 PD/ 4 ED) OIF: Battelsuit (-1/2), Only when suit is unpowered (-1)

 

Elemental Control: Powered Systems: OIF: Battlesuit (-1/2)

 

1 - Armor (20 PD/20 ED)

2 - Flight (20")

3 - Life Support (40 points worth, can't remember the full list at the moment)

 

His logic is that if his power gets shut down (Dispel, drains, etc.), he does in fact lose the armor protection he normally has.

 

Thoughts?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Power Armor EC Question

 

If you're looking for reasons not to allow this, the general rule is that powers which do not cost END cannot be part of an EC. [i disagree with that rule, but it is the "letter of the rules"]

 

I can't recall whether there's another reason Life Support can't be part of a framework - is it a special power?

 

Personally, I wouldn't consider "powered armor powers" a special effect tight enough to support an EC. I would let the player place a "drain one/drain all" -1/4 limitation on his power suit powers, if he wishes.

[JmOz]

Re: Power Armor EC Question

 

Personaly I would allow the following based on what you have said

 

EC-Force Fields, this would allow for the flight and a FF, and even an EB and/or TK. If he wants he could use armor as the FF (With Costs end to activate or something)

[Dust Raven]

Re: Power Armor EC Question

 

Armor (6 PD/ 4 ED) OIF: Battelsuit (-1/2), Only when suit is unpowered (-1)

 

Elemental Control: Powered Systems: OIF: Battlesuit (-1/2)

 

1 - Armor (20 PD/20 ED)

2 - Flight (20")

3 - Life Support (40 points worth, can't remember the full list at the moment)

 

I'd trade in a 0 END FF for the Armor (ultimately the same effect, except that the FF in Non-Persistant) and put the LS outside the EC.

 

Of course, if you don't have any problems putting 0 END/Special Powers in an EC, then what you've got is fine. I wouldn't allow it myself though.

[Chiba Bob]

Re: Power Armor EC Question

 

The real problem with a Battlesuit powers EC is that the "common special effect" is to broad. Most powers in the game could be grouped under a battlesuit powers special effect. What is the limitation? ECs should be a narrow set of powers grouped under a "common special effect" For example, Spidy powers might be too broad for a EC but Spidy Web powers would be good. Likewise, a Mentalist EC is also too broad but a Mental powers EC or Telekinetic powers EC is fine. The "common special effect" of any EC needs to be specific enough so only a few powers can be grouped under its heading; Otherwise, there would be no real limitation. That's why the God-Like powers EC should not be allowed; likewise, a Battlesuit powers EC should not be allowed either.

 

 

 

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[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Power Armor EC Question

 

The "common special effect" of any EC needs to be specific enough so only a few powers can be grouped under its heading; Otherwise' date=' there would be no real limitation.[/quote']

 

And yet people continually write up characters with anything and everything under EC and Multipowers. Heck, I've done it myself. Sometimes I think we should just cut the cost of all Powers by 50 percent and get rid of Power Frameworks entirely.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Power Armor EC Question

 

Multipowers are, legally, an anything goes, SFX be damned Framework. The limitation of an MP has nothing to do with what the Powers are, but how much of any of them can be used at any one time. With 5E's Multiple-Power Attack, an MP filled with nothing but attacks actually does have some drawbacks.

 

Elemental Controls, however, is a whole other can of worms. Personally, I love and it just wouldn't be the Hero System with 'em. But I run them like single powers. I'll only allow an EC if everything in it can be considered not only the same SFX, but the same overall power (little 'p'). It just has enough aspects it needs more than one Power (big 'p') to write it up.

[tesuji]

Re: Power Armor EC Question

 

Well, for my money, when the archtypal published characters have "helpful witcheries" as an EC sfx, i really got no room based on system to complain about an armor EC sfx which contains defense, flight and life support.

 

Given the effect described, i would however go along these lines...

 

Armor 5/4 15 ap -1/4 IIF 12 rp

(I bought this as IIF assuming it can be hidden under clothing like iron man's suit could. if you go with OIF battlesuit, its always obvious. I also did not go for the "only when off" and its value will still apply normally.)

 

Then I buy an EC for "powered armor

 

13 EC Powered Armor 20 pts -1/2 OIF Battlesuit

13 20/20 force field end 4

13 20" flight end 4

10 20 pts of life support -1/2 costs end end 4

 

total EC cost 49 pts

 

Then buy end reserve for the juice to run it all, probably iif since you want them to be easily carryable as the suit is.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Power Armor EC Question

 

Well' date=' for my money, when the archtypal published characters have "helpful witcheries" as an EC sfx, i really got no room based on system to complain about an armor EC sfx which contains defense, flight and life support.[/quote']

 

The EC and NND are the same every edition. The rules admonish that NND's need "a common defense" and list things like "Resistant defenses", "Force Field" or "Flash Defense". They suggest EC's be a very tight special effect like "Fire Powers", "Ice Powers" or "Electrical powers" [and even go so far as to suggest GM's define the acceptable SFX for their campaigns]. The rules book also suggests an EC should generally have an attack, a defense and a movement power, and maybe an unusual power - not half a dozen defenses.

 

Then we get the published characters, whose NND's are against "Life support - extreme cold", "Hardened Flash defense" and such - far less common defenses than the book powers. EC's incorporate virtually any special effects the character has, and put in as many powers as they see fit. If the writers are going to push the envelope, it seems logical to expect the players and GM's will too.

[Chiba Bob]

Re: Power Armor EC Question

 

And yet people continually write up characters with anything and everything under EC and Multipowers.

 

Some of the Hero's writers (like Scott Bennie) have banned the use of ECs completely in their campaigns Even if I just mention the subject, He is ready to hit me with the "Bennie Cane" because of the years anguish caused by arguing over what is a valid EC and what in not with players. If my memory serves me, I don't think he has use any ECs in any of his writeups lately but Multipowers on the other hand he uses frequently.

[Chiba Bob]

Re: Power Armor EC Question

 

Well' date=' for my money, when the archtypal published characters have "helpful witcheries" as an EC sfx, i really got no room based on system to complain about an armor EC sfx which contains defense, flight and life support.[/quote']

 

 

Originally, ECs were conceived to give characters with a great character concept a point break because many of their powers could not be easily modified by a set of limitations in their concept. Characters who have a physical set of armor for their defense and or a gun as their attack power are intrinsically more effective (point cost wise) in the Hero system. They are a Stop Framework and should be strictly enforced by the GM when they give a character design an overwhelming advantage over the other players. Armor Powers generally get a built-in -1/2 OIF while Guns enjoy a -1 OAF limitation to their power costs. To allow Armor or Gun ECs on top of this is just plain power gaming and if that is the type of game the GM wants to run then all the power to him. Any power games I have played in have ended abruptly with the introduction of my AF, AE (One Hex), NND Attack Multipower and my Analyze Weakness power set.

 

 

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[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Power Armor EC Question

 

Any power games I have played in have ended abruptly with the introduction of my AF' date=' AE (One Hex), NND Attack Multipower and my Analyze Weakness power set. .[/quote']

 

Bad man.

 

That's always a good schtick for a villain, though. I ran a somewhat similar villain a number of years ago called "Overkill", whose modus operandi entailed ambushing superheroes just after they had finished fighting another villain. "Ambushing" isn't correct, actually: he had a "code of honor" thing, so he wouldn't actually ambush them. It'd be an unpleasant surprise, though.

 

Overkill eventually got caught, escaped from prison to help defeat his psychopathic brother who'd stolen his power armor, and then became a hero-on-parole himself. You know, stereotypical supers stuff.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Power Armor EC Question

 

*Personally*, I rule that a "meta-SFX" (like Magic, Technology, Psionics, or Nova Powers) is not sufficient justification for an EC. I also strictly enforce the rule about Multiple Power Attacks and EC slots.

 

However I have my own list of what powers can and cannot be placed in EC's, MP's, and VPP's.

 

Now, oftentimes the meta-SFX thing can be gotten around. Looking at the slots in the original post, if the player changed the Armor to a Force Field and called it "Gravitational Manipulator", I could justify the first two slots but not that third one (Life Support is on the list of powers I might allow in an MP or VPP under the right circumstances but never an EC).

[Chiba Bob]

Re: Power Armor EC Question

 

Now' date=' oftentimes the meta-SFX thing can be gotten around. Looking at the slots in the original post, if the player changed the Armor to a Force Field and called it "Gravitational Manipulator", I could justify the first two slots but not that third one (Life Support is on the list of powers I might allow in an MP or VPP under the right circumstances but never an EC).[/quote']

 

 

Sounds good to me, I agree that gravity manipulation would make an acceptable EC.

[Chiba Bob]

Re: Power Armor EC Question

 

Bad man.

 

You think that was bad, you should have seen the look on our faces when "IW One " should up to one of our old player vs GM power grudge matches. Needless to say, we are getting our butt's kicked when IW Ones player shows up very late in the match. In the interest in keeping the game rolling, the GM allows the player's new character into the game .... sight unseen. I think the GM figured that he had us on the ropes and one more character would not make much of a difference. When IW Ones Phase came, he announces that he make a half-move with Flight, he describes something that looks like an missile flying in and proclaims that he explodes with a 12d6 RKA, Ex, 1 Charge, No Range, Power Only Works When It Explodes (a -2 limitation I guess) and rolls a 6 on the STUN roll against our 250 Pt characters. Once the laughter settled, and the realization that there was no clear winner except for those who survived and those who didn't. From then on we settled down to play more of a balanced game. Soon after, the idea of DC and DEF limits were born, based on SPD, so the GM could regulate power levels (the only way to define power levels back then was by how many character points someone cost).

[tesuji]

Re: Power Armor EC Question

 

 

Originally, ECs were conceived to give characters with a great character concept a point break because many of their powers could not be easily modified by a set of limitations in their concept.

Well, since although i have played for now over 2 decades, i never mind read the original designers, i cannot say for sure what their intent was.

 

I can figure that for every "its for tight concept rewards", there will probably be an "its for countering the figured characteristics" guy.

 

personally, i am more concerned with what it does.

 

Characters who have a physical set of armor for their defense and or a gun as their attack power are intrinsically more effective (point cost wise) in the Hero system.

 

I would not agree with that. They CAN be, if the Gm does not suitably enforce the limitation that reduces the point cost. but they do not have to be.

 

Cheaper != more efficient point wise.

Cheaper without offsetting drawbacks = more efficient point wise.

 

They are a Stop Framework and should be strictly enforced by the GM when they give a character design an overwhelming advantage over the other players.

Exactly what in the game should not be reined in when it gives the character design an overwhelming advantage over the other players? Doesn't this apply to everything, framoework, characteristic, or whatever?

Armor Powers generally get a built-in -1/2 OIF while Guns enjoy a -1 OAF limitation to their power costs. To allow Armor or Gun ECs on top of this is just plain power gaming.

So, for example, if my character is built on electric powers, then an EC is fine if he is a mutant but not fine if he is a battlesuit guy or a magic ring guy? having EC for shockbolt, teleport not thru conductive surfaces, and a force field is OK for an EC for a mutant or altered human or alien but not for a technogeek or magic talisman guy?

 

IMO the additional limitations, when applied to an EC, are fine as long as they are enforced.

Any power games I have played in have ended abruptly with the introduction of my AF, AE (One Hex), NND Attack Multipower and my Analyze Weakness power set.

 

Cool! thats showing them.

[Chiba Bob]

Re: Power Armor EC Question

 

Originally Posted by Chiba Bob

I would not agree with that. They CAN be, if the Gm does not suitably enforce the limitation that reduces the point cost. but they do not have to be.

 

Cheaper != more efficient point wise.

Cheaper without offsetting drawbacks = more efficient point wise.

 

 

What is this Tesoji? I did not post this.

[SleepyDrug]

Re: Power Armor EC Question

 

I do allow "classic sfx" as EC themes. In this case, power armor types generally have certain powers.

 

Classic Power Armor EC

-- Strength

-- Armor/Force Field

-- Flight

-- Energy Blast/RKA

-- "magnetic" tk

[Chiba Bob]

Re: Power Armor EC Question

 

Well, since although i have played for now over 2 decades, i never mind read the original designers, i cannot say for sure what their intent was.

 

Just 2 decades!

 

 

 

I can figure that for every "its for tight concept rewards", there will probably be an "its for countering the figured characteristics" guy.

 

personally, i am more concerned with what it does.

 

What? Maybe its my lack of sleep but I don't understand your point here.

 

 

 

Exactly what in the game should not be reined in when it gives the character design an overwhelming advantage over the other players? Doesn't this apply to everything, framoework, characteristic, or whatever?

 

Build same character four times, one using only focuses, one only with a EC, one without an EC and or focuses and the last one with an EC with focuses. Then run a little arena-like battle between these characters. Then you tell me who comes in on top. I will put my money on the character that is allowed a focused EC such as Powered Armored any day. Try it, This is what I mean as an overwhelming advantage.

 

 

 

So' date=' for example, if my character is built on electric powers, then an EC is fine if he is a mutant but not fine if he is a battlesuit guy or a magic ring guy? having EC for shockbolt, teleport not thru conductive surfaces, and a force field is OK for an EC for a mutant or altered human or alien but not for a technogeek or magic talisman guy?[/quote']

 

 

Electrical Bob is fine. Mutant Bob I would say no. Mutant Bob, Master of Weather is fine. Mutant Bob, Master Of Electrics is a yes (can teleport by way of conductive surfaces ... sure, why not!). Battlesuit Bob in no. Magic Ring Bob is no as well. Magic Talisman Bob same as Magic Ring Bob. Technogeek Bob is no but should look as VPPs.

 

I hope this clears up your confusion.

 

 

 

Cool! thats showing them.

 

Thanks!

 

 

.

[Chiba Bob]

Re: Power Armor EC Question

 

I do allow "classic sfx" as EC themes. In this case, power armor types generally have certain powers.

 

Classic Power Armor EC

-- Strength

-- Armor/Force Field

-- Flight

-- Energy Blast/RKA

-- "magnetic" tk

 

 

What about Speed ECs?

[SleepyDrug]

Re: Power Armor EC Question

 

What about Speed ECs?

 

If a player could give me a Classic Speedster list of powers. The two most iconic speedsters in comics, the Flash and Quicksilver have totally different powers. The traditional Flash power set is not conducive to a EC, I built him on a multi-power.

 

I'd accept "Classic Super-Brick" with Strength, Constitution, Armor/FF, Flight, Energy Blast.

 

Electrical Bob is fine. Mutant Bob I would say no. Mutant Bob, Master of Weather is fine. Mutant Bob, Master Of Electrics is a yes (can teleport by way of conductive surfaces ... sure, why not!). Battlesuit Bob in no. Magic Ring Bob is no as well. Magic Talisman Bob same as Magic Ring Bob. Technogeek Bob is no but should look as VPPs

 

So what your really saying is that EC's in your campaign are not available for a good theme: classic power armor, classic super-brick, weather control, fire control, telekinesis....if the character wants to limit the EC via a focus?

 

What is the difference between EC: Classic Power Armor, OIF (- 1/2) and Fire Creation, Not in Water/Vacuum (- 1/4), Activation Roll 15- (- 1/4)?

[Chiba Bob]

Re: Power Armor EC Question

 

If a player could give me a Classic Speedster list of powers. The two most iconic speedsters in comics' date=' the Flash and Quicksilver have totally different powers. The traditional Flash power set is not conducive to a EC, I built him on a multi-power.[/quote']

 

I would agree that a Flash power set is better built using a Multi-power but I would not stop someone from trying ... thats all.

 

 

 

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[Chiba Bob]

Re: Power Armor EC Question

 

What is the difference between EC: Classic Power Armor' date=' OIF (- 1/2) and Fire Creation, Not in Water/Vacuum (- 1/4), Activation Roll 15- (- 1/4)?[/quote']

 

 

Sorry! Must move on (things need to be done) I have tried to explain it but I don't think can. I think I now have a better understanding of why Scott gets cantankerous over this subject. Maybe someone more eloquent can pickup the gauntlet.

 

 

 

 

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[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Power Armor EC Question

 

Sorry! Must move on (things need to be done) I have tried to explain it but I don't think can. I think I now have a better understanding of why Scott gets cantankerous over this subject. Maybe someone more eloquent can pickup the gauntlet. .

 

It was a good effort. I do not entirely share your point of view, but I do see where you are coming from, and you merit high praise for trying to communicate your ideas without taking things personally. Rock on, indeed.

[tesuji]

Re: Power Armor EC Question

 

 

Build same character four times, one using only focuses, one only with a EC, one without an EC and or focuses and the last one with an EC with focuses. Then run a little arena-like battle between these characters. Then you tell me who comes in on top. I will put my money on the character that is allowed a focused EC such as Powered Armored any day. Try it, This is what I mean as an overwhelming advantage.

OK, for the sake of argument, i will skip the obvious "but an RPG is a lot more complex than an arena fight duel, isn't it?"

 

Do you still think MR focus-ec guy will come out on top if he does not have his foci? I think i would put my money of mr EC only guy then.

 

How often should that happen? often enough to make the results come out even, if the GM is doing his job and enforcing limitations.

 

or is your premise based on the presumption that the focus limitation wont be applied?

 

How about a guy who has an EC for his magic spells and also has RSR and side effects for a -1? he saves plenty and even after buying enough skill roll to not have much chance of failing still saves more points.

 

As i said, this principle is not limited to foci and ECs any more than the GM either chooses or refuses to enforce the limitation.

 

 

 

 

 

Electrical Bob is fine. Mutant Bob I would say no. Mutant Bob, Master of Weather is fine. Mutant Bob, Master Of Electrics is a yes (can teleport by way of conductive surfaces ... sure, why not!). Battlesuit Bob in no. Magic Ring Bob is no as well. Magic Talisman Bob same as Magic Ring Bob. Technogeek Bob is no but should look as VPPs.

 

I hope this clears up your confusion.

yes, it seems like there is no rhyme or reason other than "i feel like it" to your decisions. That of course, is fine, it just helps me categorize your position.

 

thanks a lot.