CorpCommander Posted August 17, 2004 Report Share Posted August 17, 2004 Ok, have been enjoying TUB greatly but have been having some laughs reading the expanded strength table. Example: 100 Tons, modern examples are the Space Shuttle (sans booster) and a... bulldozer. what? 100 Tons? Metric? are you out of your mind? I did some looking up. Most bulldozers don't top 14,000kg. However a few very large machines used in open mining do. I think the examples could have been better expanded out. Also bulozer as an example appears many times. The Catapiller 797 dump truck for open mining can haul 360 tons and weighs in at 1.230 million pounds. Converted to metric tons that is: 558. Wow. Thats big. It has a strength of about 123 or 124 - I think that is enough to lift 360 tons and walk around with it using casual strength. What is the formula to determine what you can lift by the way? I know every 5 points doubles your lifting capacity. What is the exact formula? I've been trying to work it out as perhaps some sort of log formula but haven't gotten it right yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted August 17, 2004 Report Share Posted August 17, 2004 Re: The Ultimate Brick, wacky examples? Ok, have been enjoying TUB greatly but have been having some laughs reading the expanded strength table. Example: 100 Tons, modern examples are the Space Shuttle (sans booster) and a... bulldozer. what? 100 Tons? Metric? are you out of your mind? I did some looking up. Most bulldozers don't top 14,000kg. However a few very large machines used in open mining do. I think the examples could have been better expanded out. Also bulozer as an example appears many times. The Catapiller 797 dump truck for open mining can haul 360 tons and weighs in at 1.230 million pounds. Converted to metric tons that is: 558. Wow. Thats big. It has a strength of about 123 or 124 - I think that is enough to lift 360 tons and walk around with it using casual strength. What is the formula to determine what you can lift by the way? I know every 5 points doubles your lifting capacity. What is the exact formula? I've been trying to work it out as perhaps some sort of log formula but haven't gotten it right yet. The expanded strength tables is not about how much those machines can lift or move, it's about how much said objects weigh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorpCommander Posted August 17, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2004 Re: The Ultimate Brick, wacky examples? The expanded strength tables is not about how much those machines can lift or move' date=' it's about how much said objects weigh.[/quote'] I don't disagree, but I also never made that assertion. I thought it was funny they had buldozer seveal times with really high weights that I thought were too much until I looked it up. You can figure out the STR of a piece of equipment if you can look up how much it can pick up and move around with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vorsch Posted August 17, 2004 Report Share Posted August 17, 2004 Re: The Ultimate Brick, wacky examples? A buldozer does not have str 123 or even 124, casual str is not an issue. Your talking about lifting 500,000 tons. It has a str of 70 by you example, if built as a character with Density Increase and growth the base character would have str 5. Dont double the lift to find str of things ( baseing as you seem to be on casual str ) cos that plainly ridiculous. Casual str works at low levels but becomes absurd at high values and realy realy absurd at negative values. Try casual str at Str-20 , that will solve most problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorpCommander Posted August 17, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2004 Re: The Ultimate Brick, wacky examples? Vorsch, I am only going by the description in the rules. The capacity given to lift something on the STR table is the amount to get it off the ground and stagger a couple of inches. Since the CAT 797 can drive around for miles with 360 MT it has to be a near casual STR of 123 or more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greatwyrm Posted August 17, 2004 Report Share Posted August 17, 2004 Re: The Ultimate Brick, wacky examples? The Catapiller 797 dump truck for open mining can haul 360 tons and weighs in at 1.230 million pounds. Converted to metric tons that is: 558. Wow. Thats big. It has a strength of about 123 or 124 - I think that is enough to lift 360 tons and walk around with it using casual strength. Why would you use casual strength for this? The 797 burns through a heck of a lot of fuel to move a load like that. It's not like it's just moving 360 metric tons of earth with the engine in idle. It's probably using most or all of its strength to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorpCommander Posted August 17, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2004 Re: The Ultimate Brick, wacky examples? Why would you use casual strength for this? The 797 burns through a heck of a lot of fuel to move a load like that. It's not like it's just moving 360 metric tons of earth with the engine in idle. It's probably using most or all of its strength to do it. I can bench press 200lbs. Easy. More if I am training for it (I think my max was 260.) That means my casual carrying capacity, in the rules at least, is 100lbs. I can walk around carrying 100lbs but I am going to sweat a lot and use up a ton of ATP (your bodies energy.) But I can do it. I am not going to go far with 200lbs on my back excepts to stagger around and maybe hurt myself. I don't see how it is any different than the CAT 797 able to haul 360MT of dirt 3 miles from pit to removal field. I think the word 'casual' here is not a greatly useful one. Another word that irritates me for the same reason is depression. It means a slight dip in the road or a very serious mental health issue! Casual sounds like something you would buy to wear from Old Navy so that you'll look cool sipping a Mai Tai. Casual Strength, as described, should perhaps be named maximum safe mobile strength. For example. If I have a 100lbs 21" monitor in my hands there isn't anything casual about the conversations I am going to have with people in the hallway as I am trying to carry it. "Ugh this is frickin heavy!" and "Heavy and expensive! Please step aside!" Those are typical conversations while carrying something with my maximum "casual" strength! None of this: "So how about them Red Sox! Yeah, I can't believe that about Garciapara either! Jeeze, what was management thinking? Anyway, I've got to get this big assed monitor down to Phil's office but first let me tell you about that date I had with Stacey last night!" A little tongue in cheek but thats my point. --Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted August 17, 2004 Report Share Posted August 17, 2004 Re: The Ultimate Brick, wacky examples? The examples of in the expaned strength table in the Ultimate Brick are not meant to represent how much the machine indicated in the example can lift, it's an example of what a character with that strength can lift using his STR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caris Posted August 17, 2004 Report Share Posted August 17, 2004 Re: The Ultimate Brick, wacky examples? Vorsch' date=' I am only going by the description in the rules. The capacity given to lift something on the STR table is the amount to get it off the ground and stagger a couple of inches. Since the CAT 797 can drive around for miles with 360 MT it has to be a near casual STR of 123 or more.[/quote'] Well, looking at the rules, I go to page 250 for the encumbrance table and see that at up to 10% of the max lift there is no encumbrance penalties for carrying the object. Every 5 pts up in STR doubles lifting and every 5 pts down halve lifting. So somewhere between 15 and 20 pts less of STR is 10%, therefore I would say that you could assume that the normal work load is somewhere between 15 and 20 pts of STR under its real STR. I would personally assume that the actual STR is only about 3 to 5 pts above the normal workload for a bulldozer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorpCommander Posted August 17, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2004 Re: The Ultimate Brick, wacky examples? The examples of in the expaned strength table in the Ultimate Brick are not meant to represent how much the machine indicated in the example can lift' date=' it's an example of what a character with that strength can lift using his STR.[/quote'] Yes, that is correct. No one has said otherwise. You can use the strength table to figure out how much a vehicle can carry by cross referencing the vehicle's strength. ON Another Subject I was able to reverse engineer the series uses to calculate the table. I think there is probably a better formula. Basically you start with 25 at STR 0. From there you multiply that number by 1.148698975 to get the value for STR 1. Then you multiply that number by 1.148698975 to get the value for STR 2 and so forth. It would be nice to have an arbitrary formula where f(x) = lift(kg) where x is the strength of the character. Any math wizards looking at this thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caris Posted August 17, 2004 Report Share Posted August 17, 2004 Re: The Ultimate Brick, wacky examples? Yes, that is correct. No one has said otherwise. You can use the strength table to figure out how much a vehicle can carry by cross referencing the vehicle's strength. ON Another Subject I was able to reverse engineer the series uses to calculate the table. I think there is probably a better formula. Basically you start with 25 at STR 0. From there you multiply that number by 1.148698975 to get the value for STR 1. Then you multiply that number by 1.148698975 to get the value for STR 2 and so forth. It would be nice to have an arbitrary formula where f(x) = lift(kg) where x is the strength of the character. Any math wizards looking at this thread? I use the formula 25kg*((2^.2)^STR) for positive values. Edit: Sorry, I wanted to double check before I said that it worked for Negative STR. It does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorpCommander Posted August 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 Re: The Ultimate Brick, wacky examples? I use the formula 25kg*((2^.2)^STR) for positive values. Yeah, that works nicely. I was trying to figure out something along those lines and I was reasonably close at one point. Nicely done! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caris Posted August 18, 2004 Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 Re: The Ultimate Brick, wacky examples? Yeah' date=' that works nicely. I was trying to figure out something along those lines and I was reasonably close at one point. Nicely done![/quote'] :blush: Really, it was a matter of figuring out that I wanted to get a result where the number timesed itself 5 times equaled 2. Once I got that everything else fell in place. Like you, I wanted a smoother formula than the method that the lifting tables used, so about a year ago I figgured out the formula. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorpCommander Posted August 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 Re: The Ultimate Brick, wacky examples? :blush: Really' date=' it was a matter of figuring out that I wanted to get a result where the number timesed itself 5 times equaled 2. Once I got that everything else fell in place. Like you, I wanted a smoother formula than the method that the lifting tables used, so about a year ago I figgured out the formula.[/quote'] What I like is it takes advantage of basic algebra which I was re-teaching myself at math.com. (x^y)^z == x^y*z .2 x 5 = 1 which is a nice perfect doubling. It matched my numbers quite well and is a cleaner formula (no magic number! Not that I wouldn't want a constant named after me someday...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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