Re-tooling an Old Concept: Herakles

[Supreme]

I want to do the classic Greek hero as a super-hero. Trick is getting the amount of strength correct. Now we all know that one of Herakles' adventures included having to hold up the sky in Atlas' place for a while. So... how much does our atmosphere weigh?

 

Second question: I don't want this character running around with sky-lifting strength all the time. I want him to be able to Aid his STR up to that level -- but only under appropriately dramatic circumstances. So how do you write up "only in dramatically appropriate situations"? I'll entertain any and all ideas no matter how small the limitation is.

[Just A Guy Name]

Re: Re-tooling an Old Concept: Herakles

 

Earth's atmosphere masses ~ 5.1E18 kg. That would take about... 290 STR Maybe you could rule that it is a lesser amount in the Greek mythological paradigm?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Re-tooling an Old Concept: Herakles

 

I think you may be giving yourself a real headache by trying to give a literal empirical quantity to this mythic feat. First, of course, it's impossible to get a physical "grip" on atmosphere. Perhaps more to the point, Herakles didn't hold up the atmosphere, he held up "the sky": planets, stars, the whole deal. The ability to do this is based on a very different cosmological model, so real-world statistics aren't really going to help very much. The amount of extra Strength required would then be whatever you decide is necessary.

 

Of course if you want to do it the other way anyway and use the weight of the atmosphere, that's your right. I'm afraid I can't help you with that statistic, though.

 

As far as a Limitation goes, I'd suggest the -1 version of "No Conscious Control." Some published characters have used a variant on it as described in FREd where the character has no control over when a Power with that Lim can be used, but once it's activated can use it freely. That would let the GM define "dramatically appropriate situations."

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Re-tooling an Old Concept: Herakles

 

Since we're on the subject of a modern superheroic Herakles, I thought I'd repost probably my favorite retooling of the character, originally written up by Morningstar 70 for the great "Character String" thread in the Old Board Forums:

 

-------------------------------------

 

Name: Lionheart

 

Val Char Cost

75 STR 65

23 DEX 39

40 CON 60

17 BODY 14

13 INT 3

14 EGO 8

18 PRE 8

16 COM 3

30 PD 15

25 ED 17

5 SPD 17

25 REC 4

80 END 0

75 STUN 0

Total: 253

 

Characteristic Rolls:

STR: 24-, DEX: 14-, CON: 17-, INT: 12-, EGO: 12-, PER: 12-

Run: 9"/18", Swim: 6"/12", Jump: 30"/60", Lift: 800tons

 

Cost Powers END/Roll

6 Life Support: Immune to Aging and Disease

27 Damage Resistance 30 PD and 25 ED are resistant

8 -4" KB Resistance

10 Regeneration: 1 Body/Turn

6 Running: +3" (9" total)

15 Superleap: +15" (30"/60" long by 15"/30" high)

4 Swimming: +4" (6" Total)

 

Cost Skills, Talents, Perks Roll

6 +2 Levels with Punch, Grab and Sweep

10 +2 Levels with Hand to Hand

2 AK: Campaign City 11-

3 Criminology 12-

4 KS: History 13-

3 Oratory 13-

3 Stealth 13-

3 Survival 11-

3 Tactics 12-

3 Linguist

0 Greek (Native) Fluent

2 English, Fluent w/ Accent

2 Latin, Fluent w/ Accent

1 Italian, Fluent

1 French, Fluent

 

150+ Disadvantages

15 Secret Identity: Herakles/Christopher Poirot

10 Enraged vs. Abusive/Evil God-beings or Those Who Call Themselves Gods,

Uncommon, 14-, 11-

20 Sees Self as Humanity's Champion, Common, Total

10 Utter Disdain for "Gods" Interfering With Humanity, Uncommon, Strong

15 Feels Guilty When He Causes Harm to Innocents Directly or Indirectly,

Uncommon, Total

20 Devoted to Justice, Very Common, Strong

10 Secretive About Fact He Is Really the Herakles of Myth, Uncommon, Strong

5 Avid Mystery Reader and Bookworm, Uncommon, Moderate

5 Ladies Man, Uncommon, Moderate

5 Junk Food Junkie, Uncommon, Moderate

10 Rivarly: Other "God" Heroes (even if PC's)

15 Reputation: Supremely Heroic Brick, 14-

5 Distinctive Features: Godly Aura, Noticeable to A Certain Group (Other Gods,

Mages and Mentalists)

10 Watched: Hera, Mo Pow, NCI, 8-

10 Watched: Ares, As Pow, NCI, 11-

10 Hunted: Powerhouse, As Pow, 8-

10 Hunted: Ogre, AsPow, 8-

10 Hunted: Grond, As Pow, 8-

15 Hunted: DEMON, As Pow, NCI, 8-

15 Hunted: The Demonologist and his Followers, As Pow, 11-

 

Equipment

 

OCV: 8+; DCV: 8; ECV: 5; Mental Def.: 0; Phases: 3, 5, 8, 10, 12

PD/rPD: 30/30; ED/rED: 25/25

 

COSTS: Char.: 253 Disad.: 150

Powers: + 122 Base: + 225

Total: = 375 Total: = 375

 

BACKGROUND

"That son of yours is a nightmare," the goddess stormed. "Did you see what he did to MY favorite brother?"

 

Here we go again, thought the king of Olympus, slouching upon his throne.

 

"Are you ignoring me, Zeus?" Hera asked.

 

"Of course not, dear."

 

"So what do you intend to do with Herakles?"

 

Zeus stood up and looked at his son, his favorite son, a man who was in many ways much more noble and godly than Zeus himself. "You know we are forbidden by the Accord to intervine with mankind."

 

"Ares sought to wreak great havoc. As it was... I was too late to stop the damage," Herakles answered. "Already they are calling it The Great War."

 

Zeus heard the pain in his son's voice. "Hera, then it is settled. He interfered, and he failed. He is to be banished from Olympus."

 

Herakles looked up, and Zeus caught the sparkle of joy, a conspiratorial wink too fast for Hera to catch, and then watched his son turn ashen. A fine actor.

 

"Herakles, my son, you are stripped of your Godhood. You can die of what wounds or foul play that can overcome thy might, just as when you were a mortal in Greece, but you'll not age. Should you live a millenia, you shall return to Olympus. But should you die..."

 

Herakles nodded. "Yes, father." He dropped to his knee, bowing his head. Agony burned through his body as he was stripped of his full immortality.

 

When he awakened, he was in the middle of a battlefield in Greece. Gunfire crackled around him, bullets slamming into his skin, and stopping cold. It was noisy, disorienting. An explosion rocked the world around him as a cannon shell landed on him, and darkness descended...

 

...Christopher Poirot took back his paperwork from the clerk.

 

"Mr. Poirot, your new Social Security Number is all ready. We're sorry you lost your old one," she said. "And I'm so embarassed by our computer error."

 

"It's alright," Christopher said, smiling. "I've been told I'm a nobody by women with far worse tempers."

 

The clerk smiled back, growing light-headed. "Well, you can call me..."

 

The floor shook, and Christopher looked outside the Social Security office's window, which was already cracking. A 12 foot giant was smashing the ground, sending police officers scattering as men in green armor were storming a building.

 

"Excuse me, miss..." Christopher whispered, excusing himself. Ducking through the front doors at a speed that caught everyone in the office off guard, he was in the street, ducking through an alley. Pulling the hood he fashioned as a stylized Nemian Lion, and stripping away his sweatshirt and jeans on the run, he appeared in the street, confronting the robber giant and his friends.

 

"HALT VILLAINS, OR FACE THE MIGHT," Herakles boomed from the depths of his lungs, "OF LIONHEART!"

 

* * * * *

 

Exiled from Olympus after spoiling yet another plot between Hera and Ares to despoil the Earth, Herakles found himself in a world where he could actually be harmed by nothing less than a bursting shell during World War 1.

 

With a sense of purpose, and freedom from the halls of Olympus after nearly two millenia, he was given an unspoken mission by Zeus, watch over the Earth for a millenia, and prove the worth of the Olympian Gods to return to their old home as per The Accord, a treaty which prevented the gods of old from directly interfering with the affairs of the world.

 

The best way to prove himself, Herakles felt, was to become a warrior against the Hun. He was one of the first on the scene during World War 1, but simply being enormously strong and invulnerable didn't do much to influence change on battlefields. People still died, especially young men thrown to the front lines in a war they didn't chose to start.

 

Wracked with guilt, Herakles vowed never to become involved in the front lines of war again. Gradually, though, over the rest of the century, Herakles surfaced in various identities as a hero to protect the innocent, occasionally forcing himself back into retirement when he failed or accidentally caused the death of an innocent person. His most recent identities, Christopher Poirot (over his time among humanity, he's become a big fan of Agatha Christie and her detective Hercule Poirot) and Lionheart are an attempt to make up for a decade of inactivity.

 

As a cover, Christopher is a university historian.

 

QUOTE

"If you think I was born yesterday, boy do I have a surprise for you."

 

PERSONALITY

Herakles/Christopher has lived a long time, and has had a chance to grow up quite a bit from the impetuous and imperious young godling he used to be. His sense of strong responsibility and guilt over letting innocent people be hurt or causing damage is as strong as ever, but now, he applies his abilities more directly to try to make amends, rather than seeking punishment in the form of arcane labors. As such, Lionheart, after a super battle, is just as likely to be helping rescue people trapped under rubble or reconstructing damaged buildings as hunting down bad guys.

 

Christopher is well-read, and is an avid student of history as well as a very skilled criminologist (particularly stemming from his first exposure to "detective" fiction as he spotted the cover for the "Labors of Hercules" by Agatha Christie). While this might not seem like the Herakles of myth, Christopher's metabolism allows him to need less sleep, and his mind and body are so quick, he can accomplish most tasks in a quarter of the time needed. As a history professor, this leaves him extra time between work and his duty.

 

Christopher is also a bit of a ladies man, but tries not to be too forward, realizing a relationship would be problematic for an immortal.

 

Right now, he considers himself first and foremost a human with fantastic gifts, and having seen the truth of Olympus, does not hold any illusions of the "superiority" of so-called gods. They simply are normal, petty humans with bigger, built-in guns to his mind.

 

Lionheart, as a hero, is a bold, yet selfless hero, willing to dive in front of enemies and draw their fire.

 

POWERS AND TACTICS

As the son of Zeus, the legendary Herakles, Lionheart is possessed of astonishing levels of strength, stamina and durability. As well, he is astoundingly quick, capable of running at 36 miles an hour, or leaping nearly 400 feet in a single bound. Despite his awesome strength, he is lean of build, and posessed of enormous skill and agility in hand to hand combat. One of his favorite maneuvers in combat against multiple foes is to literally sweep them aside left and right. While quite dexterous, he's fairly straight forward in hand to hand, punching and grappling, unless circumstances dictate otherwise. Granted, with all his relative power, he doesn't have to resort to tactics against other strongmen, but he will switch from slugfests which result in hammerblows that break windows and set off car alarms across half the city to something much more containable and limiting of property damage and casualites as soon as it is obvious to him.

 

Lionheart is hard to really hurt, as even when something manages to cut through his Herculean flesh, he heals immediately, and is resistant to all terrestrial diseases, though mystical or godly blights can harm him.

 

APPEARANCE

Herakles, while described as tall and broad of build, actually is only 6'1" and 230 pounds, relatively small in this world of superheroic Bricks who can be up to 12 feet tall and weigh several tons. All the better. As Christopher Poirot, he dresses like a typical college professor - button-front shirts, and he has a favorite tweed jacket he had one friend treat to avoid serious damage, jeans and sneakers. He shaved his beard, and trims his black hair short. It is naturally curly. Of course, his skin is very well tanned, and his muscle tone is fantastic. Christopher makes special efforts to appear to be a fitness fanatic, working out at the University gymnasium for an hour every day (actually, he goes just to listen to the music and look at all the pretty girls). However, secretly, Herakles/Christopher is a closet junk food junkie, and were it not for the fact that he has the metabolism and anatomy to drop kick a Volkswagon across a football field, he'd swiftly balloon to blobbish size.

 

As Lionheart, he wears a stylized hood reminiscent of his old Nemian Lion cloak and cowl which he wore as a hero in Ancient Greece. His arms and ribs are left bare as a brown tabard is run down his chest to a thick leather belt with oversized buckle. He also wears brown pants and fur ruffled boots and gloves.

[Acroyear]

Re: Re-tooling an Old Concept: Herakles

 

Was it possible in the myth for people to just, like, walk on over to where Atlas held everything up? I'd attribute it to an extra-dimensional place specially suited for that so the str needed would be different, still amazing levels of strength (no normal guy could do it), but not enough to actually hold the "modern/real" universe.

[Supreme]

Re: Re-tooling an Old Concept: Herakles

 

I think you may be giving yourself a real headache by trying to give a literal empirical quantity to this mythic feat. First' date=' of course, it's impossible to get a physical "grip" on atmosphere. Perhaps more to the point, Herakles didn't hold up the atmosphere, he held up "the sky": planets, stars, the whole deal. The ability to do this is based on a very different cosmological model, so real-world statistics aren't really going to help very much. The amount of extra Strength required would then be whatever you decide is necessary.[/quote']

Headache? Maybe, but it's also fun to crunch the numbers some times.

And yes, it was my deliberate intention to interpret "the sky" as the atmosphere as it was the only thing that my mind could wrap around. I suppose I could try other interpretations. What did the ancient Greeks think the sky was composed of? Could a Champions character lift that with less than 290 character points?

...As far as a Limitation goes, I'd suggest the -1 version of "No Conscious Control." Some published characters have used a variant on it as described in FREd where the character has no control over when a Power with that Lim can be used, but once it's activated can use it freely. That would let the GM define "dramatically appropriate situations."

Hmm... Good idea. The GM has to really be willing to play ball though as it's extra work for him.

[Supreme]

Re: Re-tooling an Old Concept: Herakles

 

Was it possible in the myth for people to just' date=' like, walk on over to where Atlas held everything up? I'd attribute it to an extra-dimensional place specially suited for that so the str needed would be different, still amazing levels of strength (no normal guy could do it), but not enough to actually hold the "modern/real" universe.[/quote']

Not just anyone could make the journey safely, but otherwise yes. Atlas' point-of-holding for the sky was a place that existed physically on Earth.

[Acroyear]

Re: Re-tooling an Old Concept: Herakles

 

Maybe it's a particular property of the place, itself. "Good Handholds. +200 STR Usable By Others, only for holding up the world." Or a combination of something similar and some limited str by the participants.

[Archangel Gabri]

Re: Re-tooling an Old Concept: Herakles

 

I think you may be giving yourself a real headache by trying to give a literal empirical quantity to this mythic feat.

As far as a Limitation goes, I'd suggest the -1 version of "No Conscious Control." Some published characters have used a variant on it as described in FREd where the character has no control over when a Power with that Lim can be used, but once it's activated can use it freely. That would let the GM define "dramatically appropriate situations."

 

I completely agree on both counts. The story of Heracles and Atlas is more blatantly metaphoric than most Greek myths (and that's saying something).

 

I'd give him enough STR to make it convincing, and put that 'dramatically appropriate situations' limit on some of it.

[Acroyear]

Re: Re-tooling an Old Concept: Herakles

 

You could also calculate the weight of the world based on what the world was considered to be by the greeks then. It was much smaller, after all.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Re-tooling an Old Concept: Herakles

 

You could also calculate the weight of the world based on what the world was considered to be by the greeks then. It was much smaller' date=' after all.[/quote']

 

Really? I thought they got that right.

 

 

Anyway. Howabout the weight of the earth, minus the weight the earth would be if it was made of atmosphere? (don't ask me to work that out... )

 

After all, it could be thought of him doing a handstand on the sky and using his legs to support the earth...

 

(brain hurts now...)

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Re-tooling an Old Concept: Herakles

 

Headache? Maybe, but it's also fun to crunch the numbers some times.

And yes, it was my deliberate intention to interpret "the sky" as the atmosphere as it was the only thing that my mind could wrap around. I suppose I could try other interpretations. What did the ancient Greeks think the sky was composed of? Could a Champions character lift that with less than 290 character points?

 

If you decide that he could, then he could.

 

Most of the truly ancient cosmological models had the vault of the sky as some type of solid shell or dome covering the Earth. What exactly the stars were varied with time and place: gems or sparks of fire set in the dome were common, as was the idea that the shell of the sky was surrounded by light or fire outside, which showed as stars through holes in the dome.

 

The exact composition and weight was never specified AFAIK, but with this concept it becomes easier to visualize actually lifting it; you just have to travel to a place where you can get within touching distance of the sky-vault, such as a high peak close to the edge.

[Supreme]

Re: Re-tooling an Old Concept: Herakles

 

Really? I thought they got that right.

Aristophanes got the circumferance right to within a few percent. Not a bad feat considering that he had two poles and a runner to measure it with. Don't know about their measure of the weight, though.

Anyway. Howabout the weight of the earth, minus the weight the earth would be if it was made of atmosphere? (don't ask me to work that out... )

 

After all, it could be thought of him doing a handstand on the sky and using his legs to support the earth...

 

(brain hurts now...)

You're hurting my brain too!

[Supreme]

Re: Re-tooling an Old Concept: Herakles

 

If you decide that he could, then he could.

 

Most of the truly ancient cosmological models had the vault of the sky as some type of solid shell or dome covering the Earth. What exactly the stars were varied with time and place: gems or sparks of fire set in the dome were common, as was the idea that the shell of the sky was surrounded by light or fire outside, which showed as stars through holes in the dome.

 

The exact composition and weight was never specified AFAIK, but with this concept it becomes easier to visualize actually lifting it; you just have to travel to a place where you can get within touching distance of the sky-vault, such as a high peak close to the edge.

I was thinking that if they though, for instance, that it was a blanket with holes punched in it, then I could calculate the mass of a blanket 25,000 miles long or something. Anyway, this is becoming silly beyond the limits of fun. I think I'm just going to go with an 80 with an Aid to a ceiling of 120 with no conscious control. Thanks for sparing the brain cells, guys.

[Powerhouse]

Re: Re-tooling an Old Concept: Herakles

 

My personal takes:

 

1. The myth either never happened.

 

2. The myth was exaggerated. Atlas wasn't needed to hold the sky so much as he was there to be punished. He had to exert his entire strength if he did not want to experience terrible pain or oblivion. Herk needed to take Atlas' place briefly.

 

3. The properties of the world were different then. The gods and their offspring were considerably more powerful. That allowed them to define a place a place ala:

 

" "Good Handholds. +200 STR Usable By Others, only for holding up the world." Or a combination of something similar and some limited str by the participants."

 

Gotta love it.

 

As for the ability to have vastly increased strength, either strength or aid to strength with no conscious control or increased strength with heavy endurance costs, and possibly other side effects (stun or body drain) to reflect an incredibly heroic effort that only someone like Hercules could perform. Normally he clocks in around 70 str say but can go to above Grond level with a incredible surge of will, iron discipline, and disregard for his own safety. You might want to include some form of charge limits to show that the effort is so intense that he can use it only rarely.

[Pegasus]

Re: Re-tooling an Old Concept: Herakles

 

Howzabout...

 

Holding up the sky was an important task that could only be performed by a suitable person. Therefore...

 

Perk: Sky Support (Independent, Unique, MIN STR [superhuman] required)

 

[Just A Guy Name]

Re: Re-tooling an Old Concept: Herakles

 

Not necessarily pertinent to Supreme's concept; but in the ICE Greece supplement, didn't Herakles check in with a STR of 40 or so?