Katherine Posted September 11, 2004 Report Share Posted September 11, 2004 Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie > I've seen, in the relatively short time I've been using this game, write ups > of Batman and crew ranging from 400 points to 2000 points. You missed the footnote. [snip] > Not really. If they are NPCs then they don't even need stats. Just names > and basic appearance. They are plot devices, nothing more. ... isn't this exactly the same problem that you were trying to NOT have? At least if the official NPCs have stats, they're potentially beatable. Like I said, I don't have a problem. I just see the wisdom is not creating these types of character Offically. Its lets indivodual gms decide what they want to do and you don't get griping about "Filling up the books with uber heroes" and crap like that. Which I can, in part, understand. I look for antagonists in sourcesbooks and plot hooks not replacement heroes. I've got those. Unstatted Uber heroes can be beaten as easily as the plot demands. They exist to answer the question (if it concerns you) why hasn't Destroyer taken over the world? They succeed or fail as nessecary to move the game along. Depite White wolf's best attempts, unstatted does not mean "Unbeatable". Aberrant basically -said- these NPCs don't have stats because they could crush your players with a sneeze. It doesn't have to be that way. Statted NPC can make it harder to have dramatic upset and maintain suspension of disbeleif. No one would swallow the New Guard defeated the New Sentinels in a million years. The mega villian issue doesn't really bother me. I just suspend disbeleif and my games pretty much revolve around the PC. Dr D will show up when/if they are ready for him. I can understand your style is different and appreciate your spirited defense of it. I think it works. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie My problem is, I don't see the conflict. If you are playing high level heroes, then you obviously are supplanting one of the canon teams anyway, just like how player teams routinely supplant the canon Champions in Millenium City. If you are playing low level heroes, why, exactly, are you bothered by the presence of canon high level heroes?? Your paths need never cross, as the kind of threats faced by low level heroes are the kind of things high level heroes simply don't have the time to deal with. Thus, the entire thing strikes me as tremendously stupid, as "overshadowing" only occurs if the players and GM are doing something stupid themselves ( taking on high powered villains with weak heroes, or having the big guys step in to save the players asses from things they ought to be able to deal with ). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie Also, given that the number one thing I credit Hero for is creating a very good, and very consistent, *world*, it really irks me when they ignore a major and logical part of the setting. Its like they are catering to people who think the only Marvel heroes should be Hawkeye, Spider-man, and Wolverine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katherine Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie My problem is, I don't see the conflict. If you are playing high level heroes, then you obviously are supplanting one of the canon teams anyway, just like how player teams routinely supplant the canon Champions in Millenium City. If you are playing low level heroes, why, exactly, are you bothered by the presence of canon high level heroes?? Your paths need never cross, as the kind of threats faced by low level heroes are the kind of things high level heroes simply don't have the time to deal with. Thus, the entire thing strikes me as tremendously stupid, as "overshadowing" only occurs if the players and GM are doing something stupid themselves ( taking on high powered villains with weak heroes, or having the big guys step in to save the players asses from things they ought to be able to deal with ). In my experience it works like this. Players in Supergame want to feel important, like there actions matter. That was a big failing with Aberrant. It didn't matter what you did, the world and metaplot kept right on going. Mega Heroes give that feeling to an extent. Like you said, what you can deal with is something the "real" Heroes of the setting don't have time to deal with. They are not important. You're basically doing the busy work while the real heroes are doing the important stuff. I can understand that feeling. It is a bit galling to to think your hard fought victory was something the supposedly real hero could have handled in five minutes, but they just couldn't be bothered with small potatoes and it really doesn't matter to the setting if your PCs lives or dies. It bothers some more than others, but I know it wouldn't be as much fun for me playing the second stringers and having "what difference does it make?" feeling all the time. Its really an ego thing and supers games are essentially power trips as has been noted before. Yes, you could just all play Mega Heroes, but for various reasons some people don't care for that. I've generally found it easier to add uber characters rather than write them out and tone down Mega villains to workable levels but YMMV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie This would make good fodder for another thread, but has kind of de railed this one, don't you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie In my experience it works like this. Players in Supergame want to feel important, like there actions matter. That was a big failing with Aberrant. It didn't matter what you did, the world and metaplot kept right on going. Mega Heroes give that feeling to an extent. Like you said, what you can deal with is something the "real" Heroes of the setting don't have time to deal with. They are not important. You're basically doing the busy work while the real heroes are doing the important stuff. I can understand that feeling. It is a bit galling to to think your hard fought victory was something the supposedly real hero could have handled in five minutes, but they just couldn't be bothered with small potatoes and it really doesn't matter to the setting if your PCs lives or dies. It bothers some more than others, but I know it wouldn't be as much fun for me playing the second stringers and having "what difference does it make?" feeling all the time. Its really an ego thing and supers games are essentially power trips as has been noted before. Yes, you could just all play Mega Heroes, but for various reasons some people don't care for that. I've generally found it easier to add uber characters rather than write them out and tone down Mega villains to workable levels but YMMV. If they don't want to play major heroes, than they shouldn't complain about not being as important to the setting as major heroes. I'm sorry, but I'm just not sympathetic to this supposed plight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie If they don't want to play major heroes' date=' than they shouldn't complain about not being as important to the setting as major heroes. I'm sorry, but I'm just not sympathetic to this supposed plight.[/quote'] You can't understand having a preferred comfort zone yet still wanting to relevant to the campaign? In other words, having it actually matter if you character lives or dies to the setting as a whole? I wiouldn't want to play in campaign with a power level like the New Sentinels, its just not my bag but I'd rather not be the equivlent of a nobody that really doesn't matter if I do anything at all. I mean, why I am bothering to play? Just tell me a story about the "real" heroes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie If they don't want to play major heroes' date=' than they shouldn't complain about not being as important to the setting as major heroes. I'm sorry, but I'm just not sympathetic to this supposed plight.[/quote'] I'm guessing you never tried an Aberrant module. It is a serious issue when the setting is designed with the idea that your characters are unimportant built in. Not Powerful does not always equal Not Important, but in the hands of a game writer or GM who cares more about his own characters than the PCs it can come very close. None of which means that you can't have high power NPCs running around, just that you have to be careful how you handle it, both as a writer and a GM. Back on topic, Flesh Gordon would probably try to take Fiacho to Stronghold alone in his Strato-Ship. This would be such an incredibly dumb move that most villains couldn't possibly expect it, thus allowing Flesh to reach stronghold only to face the only trio dim enough to anticipate his actions: Foxbat, Bulldozer and the Amazing Exo-Skeleton Man! Let the battle commence... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie Tao would pour over maps, schematics and available resources until she could come up with most effective transport method and at least 3 contingencies and still prep for the worst case scenario. Shidoku would consider geeking him right there, realize that would get her canned and just go with the assignment of more tactically minded individuals. She might use her underworld contacts to see if she could find out about any major plans that are going down. Valkyrie would be similar to Tao, but more on the theoretical and information gathering side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie You can't understand having a preferred comfort zone yet still wanting to relevant to the campaign? In other words' date=' having it actually matter if you character lives or dies to the setting as a whole? I wiouldn't want to play in campaign with a power level like the New Sentinels, its just not my bag but I'd rather not be the equivlent of a nobody that really doesn't matter if I do anything at all. I mean, why I am bothering to play? Just tell me a story about the "real" heroes.[/quote'] How, exactly, does not being the only/biggest hero around make you a nobody?? Yeah, you aren't fighting off Dr Destroyer in his latest world conquest attempt, your "only" thwarting a Eurostar terrorist action or uncovering VIPER influence in a corporation or, hell, just busting the city drug ring. Do those deeds not matter?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie I'm guessing you never tried an Aberrant module. It is a serious issue when the setting is designed with the idea that your characters are unimportant built in. Not Powerful does not always equal Not Important, but in the hands of a game writer or GM who cares more about his own characters than the PCs it can come very close. None of which means that you can't have high power NPCs running around, just that you have to be careful how you handle it, both as a writer and a GM. True, and also true. Neither of which are arguments against the presence of high level heroes in the Champs U ( which definitely isn't designed to make your characters irrelevant ). After all, the GM Skill Needed caution is just as applicable to pretty much any element of the setting and system. Back on topic, Flesh Gordon would probably try to take Fiacho to stronghold alone in his Strato-Ship. This would be such an incredibly dumb move that most villains couldn't possibly expect it, thus allowing Flesh to reach stronghold only to face the only trio dim enough to anticipate his actions: Foxbat, Bulldozer and the Amazing Exo-Skeleton Man! Let the battle commence... Haha, I can actually see that working. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie How' date=' exactly, does not being the only/biggest hero around make you a nobody?? Yeah, you aren't fighting off Dr Destroyer in his latest world conquest attempt, your "only" thwarting a Eurostar terrorist action or uncovering VIPER influence in a corporation or, hell, just busting the city drug ring. Do those deeds not matter??[/quote'] It doesn't -have- to make you irrevelant, but in my experience it too often does. I have also gotten complaints from players that they felt so in the past when there were practically God like Heroic NPCs running around. Its not an easy thing to pull off, IMO and I think it works better without them so that is how I play and one of the things I like about Champions Universe. Have you played in a campaign where you were the second stringers before? Honest question, not being snarky and I'm sorry if comes across that way. I've suffered thru way to many of them to be gung ho about "big guns" in Champions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie Nope, to date, my only campaign is the big one. OTOH, I don't really see how the campaign could suffer for the presence of high powered NPC heroes without the GM being sufficiently unskilled as to be a source of inevitable problems of other types. After all, if the GM doesn't do anything with the NPCs ( aside from appearing in the occasional news story in the background ), there isn't a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie Nope, to date, my only campaign is the big one. OTOH, I don't really see how the campaign could suffer for the presence of high powered NPC heroes without the GM being sufficiently unskilled as to be a source of inevitable problems of other types. After all, if the GM doesn't do anything with the NPCs ( aside from appearing in the occasional news story in the background ), there isn't a problem. You should try it before passing such a harsh and absolute judgement on those with a different opinion. Its happened to me quite a bit. Call it bad luck with GMs but it leaves a very bad taste in your mouth about the idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie The thing is, though, if the GMs are bad, than the problem isn't high level characters, its bad GMs. Yes, it takes alot of skill to incorporate high level NPCs into the campaign without overshadowing the PCs, but it doesn't take alot of skill to ignore them outside of flavor mentions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie The thing is' date=' though, if the GMs are bad, than the problem isn't high level characters, its bad GMs. Yes, it takes alot of skill to incorporate high level NPCs into the campaign without overshadowing the PCs, but it doesn't take alot of skill to ignore them outside of flavor mentions.[/quote'] All right, we clearly aren't going to change each others minds this point (Does anyone ever really win an internet argument? ) so I guess its best to drop it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie All right' date=' we clearly aren't going to change each others minds this point (Does anyone ever really win an internet argument? ) so I guess its best to drop it.[/quote'] Well, there are two ways to win an internet argument: -Convince the other person your right -Convince everybody reading that your right, or at least argued better I've seen both happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie Well, there are two ways to win an internet argument: -Convince the other person your right -Convince everybody reading that your right, or at least argued better I've seen both happen. I don't think I ever have. Ususally it just turns into a "Uh huh!" "Nuh uh!" shouting match until someone gets bored, banned or finds a new crusade. I certainly don't think that is going to happen here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Worldmaker Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie Kim, let me ask you a theoretical... What do you think about the GGU, where the "big gun heroes" are PCs, but not *all* of the PCs? Where there's a definite "elite" among the player characters, and not every player (in fact, damn few compared to the greater population of players) gets to sit at the "big table"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie Kim, let me ask you a theoretical... What do you think about the GGU, where the "big gun heroes" are PCs, but not *all* of the PCs? Where there's a definite "elite" among the player characters, and not every player (in fact, damn few compared to the greater population of players) gets to sit at the "big table"? Honestly, I'm not thrilled about it. But its not my game and I'd like to get some play in so I'll deal and just pretend Baltimore is the entire world. As long the Global Gaurdians don't show up, pat Tao on her bald head, give her cookie and say "Watch how real heroes handle a problem" I'm not going to throw conniption fit. They aren't huge plot bludgeons that utterly and totally outclass everyone else from what I have seen of them. Addmitedly, I haven't looked too closely for just this reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Worldmaker Posted September 13, 2004 Report Share Posted September 13, 2004 Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie Honestly' date=' I'm not thrilled about it. But its not my game and I'd like to get some play in so I'll deal and just pretend Baltimore is the entire world. As long the Global Gaurdians don't show up, pat Tao on her bald head, give her cookie and say "Watch how real heroes handle a problem" I'm not going to throw conniption fit. They aren't huge plot bludgeons that utterly and totally outclass everyone else from what I have seen of them. Addmitedly, I haven't looked too closely for just this reason.[/quote'] But here's the thing... do their very existence somehow spoil things for Tao? Given that its my policy to never have them do crossovers with the other campaigns just for the "no overshadowing" reason? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhammeWhamme Posted September 13, 2004 Report Share Posted September 13, 2004 Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie But here's the thing... do their very existence somehow spoil things for Tao? Given that its my policy to never have them do crossovers with the other campaigns just for the "no overshadowing" reason? Just my personal note: The Global Guardians are awesome compared to the normal PC's. But they're not _that_ far ahead. 500pts doesn't go that much furthur. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKJAM! Posted September 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 13, 2004 Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie Then of course there's games like Venture Institute, where the player characters are waay down in the power levels for the world (there are *police officers* who are tougher than they are), and the main impact they have is whether or not their school stays open. Anyone who freaks out about being overshadowed probably didn't even finish reading the campaign description..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted September 13, 2004 Report Share Posted September 13, 2004 Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie Just my personal note: The Global Guardians are awesome compared to the normal PC's. But they're not _that_ far ahead. 500pts doesn't go that much furthur. It does when they use *that* many questionable ECs. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Worldmaker Posted September 13, 2004 Report Share Posted September 13, 2004 Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie It does when they use *that* many questionable ECs. . . Questionable? By whose standards? And by what standards, for that matter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.