WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie

[Katherine]

Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie

 

I feel really stupid, but who are "Faicho" and "Eurostar"?

[OddHat]

Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie

 

I feel really stupid' date=' but who are "Faicho" and "Eurostar"?[/quote']

 

Eurostar is the major European villain group in the Champions Universe. Think of them as "The Legion of Doom", but without a really cool head shaped base. Fiacho is their boss, Lex Luthor but with cyber-implants and not as bright.

[SKJAM!]

Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie

 

Eurostar is a European terrorist group in the Champions Universe, in the top five of supervillain teams. Fiacho ("very bad") is their leader, a charismatic master tactician type.

[Katherine]

Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie

 

Eurostar is a European terrorist group in the Champions Universe' date=' in the top five of supervillain teams. Fiacho ("very bad") is their leader, a charismatic master tactician type.[/quote']

 

Oh, sounds like a fun bunch... Where could I find their write ups?

[S7Michelle]

Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie

 

Eurostar is a European terrorist group in the Champions Universe' date=' in the top five of supervillain teams. Fiacho ("very bad") is their leader, a charismatic master tactician type.[/quote']

 

::nods:: From what I've gathered they tend to be incredibly ruthless (casual killer types). Their main goal is that of a Unified Europe under their control.

 

And since I know this will matter to Menagre: Fiacho isn't a Mutant, but rather an evil Captain American type. His team only has one mutant on it, the rest gained their powers through accidents, technology, etc.

[SKJAM!]

Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie

 

Oh' date=' sounds like a fun bunch... Where could I find their write ups?[/quote']

 

Conquerors, Killers & Crooks has the most recent version of the group (and a bunch of the other standard Champions villains who get a lot of discussion on this board.) If your Friendly Local Gaming Store carrys old stuff, you may be able to find their previous versions in Classic Enemies and the original Enemies book.

[Katherine]

Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie

 

Conquerors' date=' Killers & Crooks has the most recent version of the group (and a bunch of the other standard Champions villains who get a lot of discussion on this board.) If your Friendly Local Gaming Store carrys old stuff, you may be able to find their previous versions in Classic Enemies and the original Enemies book.[/quote']

 

Thanks to everyone that helped ease my ignorance.

[caris]

Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie

 

Oh' date=' sounds like a fun bunch... Where could I find their write ups?[/quote']

5E versions are in Conquerors, Killers, and Crooks. 4E had them in Classic Enemies. I liked the over all team line up in 4E a little better, but I know others that prefer 5E. C:NM, also had a version, but it always made me gag to see them take out the Esperanto.

[Metaphysician]

Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie

 

Oh' date=' sounds like a fun bunch... Where could I find their write ups?[/quote']

 

Conquerors, Killers, and Crooks. Villain book. I highly suggest it. DOJ may have Psychological Limitation: Aversion to Writing Decent Heroes ( Com, Strong ), but they are the masters of villain creation.

[Katherine]

Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie

 

Conquerors' date=' Killers, and Crooks. Villain book. I highly suggest it. DOJ may have Psychological Limitation: Aversion to Writing Decent Heroes ( Com, Strong ), but they are the masters of villain creation.[/quote']

 

What do you define as decent heroes, if I might ask?

[Metaphysician]

Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie

 

Powerful enough to not die the first time a master villain hits them hard.

 

More specifically, DOJ seems extremely reluctant to put any heroes of a power level beyond beginning level in their setting books. As such, we have all these giant megavillains, and no clue on why they haven't successfully conquered/destroyed the world yet.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie

 

Powerful enough to not die the first time a master villain hits them hard.

 

More specifically, DOJ seems extremely reluctant to put any heroes of a power level beyond beginning level in their setting books. As such, we have all these giant megavillains, and no clue on why they haven't successfully conquered/destroyed the world yet.

 

Really, it seems self correcting...

 

Besides. I have over a hundred part-finished heroes on my computer. Making PC's is easy. Challenges are hard.

 

Oh, and it's actually "Talent: Good Business Sense" - the people who loathe high powered NPCs are more likely to boycott. (No one is traumatized by the lack of Mighty NPC's - _many_ potential customers can be traumatized by a single uber-NPC).

[Katherine]

Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie

 

Powerful enough to not die the first time a master villain hits them hard.

 

More specifically, DOJ seems extremely reluctant to put any heroes of a power level beyond beginning level in their setting books. As such, we have all these giant megavillains, and no clue on why they haven't successfully conquered/destroyed the world yet.

 

Wave of bodies tactics?

 

I can see where that might be a problem, but I have to admit I prefer it to Aberrant where you couldn't swing a stick without hitting an uber NPC that made your PCs existence look trivial. BLEAH!

[Metaphysician]

Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie

 

There's a big difference between quantum 6+ novas, and a few 700-1000 point heroes.

 

And I *still* don't get why some Hero players are so damn averse to having there actually be an Avengers/JLA analogue in the setting. Who *else* do you think is keeping your puny 350ers from fighting somebody they stand no chance against??

[Katherine]

Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie

 

I wasn't talking about the Quantum 6 crowd. I was talking about the slew of character that Erupted a year before games time and were built on 150+ Nova points. Or monsters like Totentanz. All the iconic positions in the game were taken by NPCs. Strongest Nova? Check. Smartest Nova? Check. The PC came across as bottom of the heap in a game about "Godlike Power" because White wolf couldn't stand the idea of mere PC changing their precious metaplot.

 

*pant pant* Ok, rant over.

 

And I *still* don't get why some Hero players are so damn averse to having there actually be an Avengers/JLA analogue in the setting. Who *else* do you think is keeping your puny 350ers from fighting somebody they stand no chance against??

 

No one likes to feel irrevelant and having really uber high powered NPCs in the setting can have that effect. "What would the world do without us?" and it stings if the answer is "Pretty much the same thing it does now. The mega guys can easily handle anything you could and more." I confess it puts a damper of things, IME. Its an ego thing. Why has Dr. D or the heavy hitters taken over? Plot Device. Its not time for them to try yet as the "stars" of the show aren't ready to face them yet. They're still plotting or the PCs are "beneath their notice". Super role playing is very ego based and no one wants to be second stringer to NPCs. Also, I find it easier to downgrade an uber villian so he's a match for lesser characters than to beef up a weaker for a high powered game. So I just knock things down to a level I can enjoy and its less work.

 

To put it another way, from what I have seen of your group, The New Sentinels having them in the same campaign as the New Guard would make the Gaurd pretty much redundant. I doubt we could fight one of your "loser" villains.

[Chuckg]

Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie

 

To put it another way' date=' from what I have seen of your group, The New Sentinels having them in the same campaign as the New Guard would make the Gaurd pretty much redundant. I doubt we could fight one of your "loser" villains.[/quote']

 

By this same logic, the existence of Batman makes Nightwing, Robin, and Batgirl 'irrelevant'.

 

Hey, we can only be in one place at one time.

 

And we don't have 'villains' so much as we have 'crises'.

 

Our collective Hunted list is Dr. Destroyer, Takofanes, Istvatha V'Han, and Nama the Serpent God for pete's sake... and I think DEMON's next in line...

[Katherine]

Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie

 

By this same logic, the existence of Batman makes Nightwing, Robin, and Batgirl 'irrelevant'.

 

Hey, we can only be in one place at one time.

 

And we don't have 'villains' so much as we have 'crises'.

 

Our collective Hunted list is Dr. Destroyer, Takofanes, Istvatha V'Han, and Nama the Serpent God for pete's sake... and I think DEMON's next in line...

 

Well, they do kinda. They are side kicks. Most players that I know don't generally want to play sidekicks in their own game. *shrug* We would be playing delay until you can get around to trashing our enemies or cleaning up the minor problems the big guys can't be bothered with. Like I said, its an ego thing. Its not logical but there you go. Allot of gamers don't care for a seetting cluttered with hugely powerful NPCs on "their" side because they want to feel "important" to the setting not extraneous. Its not universal (I know at least one guy that loves to play sidekicks and minor characters) but I think it is prevalent. With the NPC Heroes being of a similar level, it allows Player character to sometimes by the iconics and feel important to the setting and not just like another bunch of dweebs in tights.

 

I should have used a "Fictional" team in my example...

 

I am not saying the New Sentinels are a bad idea. They're powerful supers and you all seem to have a blast playing them and that's cool. I'm just trying to make a point for having an uber team might not be to some people's liking. It was not an attack on the New Sentinels.

[Chuckg]

Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie

 

> Well, they do kinda. They are side kicks.

 

Those 'side kicks' all have their own solo titles, supporting casts, and monthly plots. One of them has his own *city*. That's why I used them as examples.

 

They are /well/ past the stage of just waiting around for Batman to do something. Hell, Nightwing and Batgirl barely even /see/ him anymore, except in crossovers.

[Chuckg]

Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie

 

(shrug)

 

I'm just saying, with the stakes so high, and with more metahumans involved than you want to think about... nothing is foolproof.

 

It's still less risky than opening the front door.

[Katherine]

Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie

 

> Well, they do kinda. They are side kicks.

 

Those 'side kicks' all have their own solo titles, supporting casts, and monthly plots. One of them has his own *city*. That's why I used them as examples.

 

They are /well/ past the stage of just waiting around for Batman to do something. Hell, Nightwing and Batgirl barely even /see/ him anymore, except in crossovers.

 

Then they are likely of similar point totals to Batman. Or at least close to him, not in completely different leagues like The Guard and Sentinels. I don't understand why you are getting so heated about this. Its a difference of opinion about a game, after all.

 

Edit:Its also likely one of those things that works in comics but doesn't work in Role Playing games. Fictional characters don't have ego to coddle, Players, fortunately or unfortunately, do. Comic writers don't have to worry about personal Meta game issues, writers for rpg setting do and can't emulate all facets of the genre.

[Chuckg]

Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie

 

> Then they are likely of similar point totals to Batman.

 

Nope. Batman's got to be pushing 1000 after paying for the infrastructure and the contacts. Nightwing's probably about 750, Batgirl's 500 or so (she's ungodly in combat, but that's pretty much where *ALL* her points are), and Tim is 350-400.

 

> Or at least close to him, not in completely different leagues like The Guard and

> Sentinels. I don't understand why you are getting so heated about this. Its a

> difference of opinion about a game, after all.

 

Actually, no, you're making errors of fact in addition to differences of opinion. Such as 'they just stand around delaying' and 'they're of similar point totals'.

 

Batman is 800-1000 points. Robin is 350-400. They both have solo titles, and they both work together routinely. He can be a sidekick *or* an action star. DC comics has already solved your problem.

[Katherine]

Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie

 

> Then they are likely of similar point totals to Batman.

 

Nope. Batman's got to be pushing 1000 after paying for the infrastructure and the contacts. Nightwing's probably about 750, Batgirl's 500 or so (she's ungodly in combat, but that's pretty much where *ALL* her points are), and Tim is 350-400.

 

> Or at least close to him, not in completely different leagues like The Guard and

> Sentinels. I don't understand why you are getting so heated about this. Its a

> difference of opinion about a game, after all.

 

Actually, no, you're making errors of fact in addition to differences of opinion. Such as 'they just stand around delaying' and 'they're of similar point totals'.

 

Batman is 800-1000 points. Robin is 350-400. They both have solo titles, and they both work together routinely. He can be a sidekick *or* an action star. DC comics has already solved your problem.

 

 

You're see their Champions write ups? (ignoring the flexibility of comic book power levels since "Point total" for a comic character is based dramatic need. IE:You got your own title, your a major player, even if your 'Mazing Man."

 

And, honestly, I don't have a problem. I just think Hero games is being buisness savvy by not filling their setting with uber heroes so the PCs can fill those ranks. Or Gms can create them if they feel the need.

 

Like I said in my edit, comic book writers don't have to deal with player ego concerns. They don't have to deal with player creativity. Uber characters can have as much plot induced stupidity as nessecary to keep the weaker characters relevant..

 

I still don't the heat. I'm not trying to start a fight with you. Can't we just agree to disagree?

[Chuckg]

Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie

 

> You're see their Champions write ups?

 

No, but it's blatantly obvious to any longtime reader of the relevant titles what their relative power levels are. So, using Batman as the benchmark(*), I came up with estimates. (There's a reason those point values are given as ranges...)

 

[snip]

> I just think Hero games is being buisness savvy by not filling their setting

> with uber heroes so the PCs can fill those ranks.

 

Which is exactly what the New Sentinels did, because that big gaping absence was just *galling* us. Our current campaign arose partly out of a message board argument re: the huge power gap in published Hero products.

 

> Or Gms can create them if they feel the need.

 

That's a lot of work to push on every GM out there, isn't it?

 

Even if they just create one JLA style team, give it its own chapter, and put a huge "OPTIONAL -- DM'S, LEAVE THESE GUYS OUT IF THEY DON'T FIT" sticker on page 1 of the chapter -- that'd be *something*.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(*) And if you take the 4e Harbinger of Justice, file off the guns and the killing moves, add in the Utility Belt, and throw in a couple of Batman's exotica.. you've pretty much *GOT* Batman.

[Katherine]

Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie

 

> You're see their Champions write ups?

 

No, but it's blatantly obvious to any longtime reader of the relevant titles what their relative power levels are. So, using Batman as the benchmark(*), I came up with estimates. (There's a reason those point values are given as ranges...)

 

 

I've seen, in the relatively short time I've been using this game, write ups of Batman and crew ranging from 400 points to 2000 points. These have been written by people that, at least claim to be, "experts" in the characters and well researched. Most of them have been supported fairly well but anectodal "proof" from the comics. So, as far as I am concerned, any point total is just an opinion, not plainly obvious facts. I am not insulting your intelligence I just don't agree with your conclusion Please do not insult mine by implying that for not agreeing with you I am a fool.

 

[snip]

> I just think Hero games is being buisness savvy by not filling their setting

> with uber heroes so the PCs can fill those ranks.

 

Which is exactly what the New Sentinels did, because that big gaping absence was just *galling* us. Our current campaign arose partly out of a message board argument re: the huge power gap in published Hero products.

 

> Or Gms can create them if they feel the need.

 

That's a lot of work to push on every GM out there, isn't it?

 

Not really. If they are NPCs then they don't even need stats. Just names and basic appearance. They are plot devices, nothing more. It makes it easier when the PCs eventually surpass and replace them. Less to throw away.

 

OR

 

If you enjoy high powered games, make your PCs the ultimate JLA/Avengers team like you folks did with New Sentinels.

[Chuckg]

Re: WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie

 

> I've seen, in the relatively short time I've been using this game, write ups

> of Batman and crew ranging from 400 points to 2000 points.

 

You missed the footnote.

 

[snip]

> Not really. If they are NPCs then they don't even need stats. Just names

> and basic appearance. They are plot devices, nothing more.

 

... isn't this exactly the same problem that you were trying to NOT have?

 

At least if the official NPCs have stats, they're potentially beatable.