Instruction Request: VPP vs MP

[PCD]

I am still trying to understand both VPP and MP as well as the differences between them. I am not too worried about which is better et al, just how I can explain them-their differences etc to others as well.

 

Care to give me your best tutorial?

[AnotherSkip]

Re: Instruction Request: VPP vs MP

 

The simplest explanation is a VPP has essentially an infinite # of slots versus an MP that has a limit on the number of slots (based on the number of points spent to actually buy slots).

 

It gets a lot more complex than that but that is the baseline.

[MitchellS]

Re: Instruction Request: VPP vs MP

 

A multipower is a group of predefined abilities that generally center around a tightly-fixed special effect. An example might be Cyclop's visor. Cyclops can do a fixed number of different attacks styles with the visor. He can have his standard beam (energy blast), his tightly-focused beam (armor piercing energy blast), and his wide-beam (area effect cone energy blast) attack. There can be more examples that fit into the multipower. I just chose those because they are the most commonly used.

 

A variable power pool is a group of random abilities that generally center around a tightly-fixed special effect. By random I mean that only the player and GM can decided what would not fit within the vpp. The most common example of this would be Dr. Strange's magic ability. Dr. Strange knows so many different spells that it would be impossible to list them all on a character sheet. What the vpp allowed a player to do is create the spells as needed. There are no predefined abilities. The vpp allows for maximum versatility. On phase 12 Dr. Strange might do the Crimson Bands, and on Phase 3 he might do Light of the Vishanti. Anything which can fit within the active points of the vpp is open game for the character, as long as it fits within the special effects of the vpp. Dr. Strange could not pull a machine gun out of his vpp because the pool would be defined as magic.

 

The advantage to a multipower is that the character has defined abilities and can switch them instantly. The disadvantage is that yYou lose the ability to do anything you want. You must choose from the list.

 

The advantage to a vpp is that you can do any power within the special effects range. The disadvantage is that you must take time to switch powers in a vpp unless you pay additional points to switch quicker and not require a skill roll to make the switch.

[Zed-F]

Re: Instruction Request: VPP vs MP

 

MP: You have a certain number of fixed slots determined largely by how many points you spend on them. You have a fixed amount of AP of effect that you can have allocated to all powers in your pool, determined by how much reserve you purchased. Picking and choosing what powers to use is usually relatively simple, depending on how you set up your MP, and counts as a 0-phase action.

 

VPP: Much more complicated to use in many cases. The number of slots you can have is effectively infinite, but you cannot apply limitations to the base cost of the reserve, which makes it considerably more expensive in most cases. The VPP reserve is based on RP, not AP, so the amount of AP you can have active in the pool at once depends on how many limitations are applied to those powers. However, determining what limitations are allowable on VPP powers is not always trivial since the nature of a VPP may allow many kinds of limitations to not really be limiting, and thus worth -0. The amount of time it takes to change powers depends on the nature of the VPP and can range from only between adventures to a 0-phase action.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: Instruction Request: VPP vs MP

 

...determining what limitations are allowable on VPP powers is not always trivial since the nature of a VPP may allow many kinds of limitations to not really be limiting' date=' and thus worth -0. The amount of time it takes to change powers depends on the nature of the VPP and can range from only between adventures to a 0-phase action.[/quote']

 

This is an important point, one all players and GMs with VPPs should be careful to keep in mind. Many of the standard Limitations are not particularly limiting when applied to VPPs, and most of the time a given Limitation on a VPP Power should not receive any value at all, This is particularly true if the character has a VPP in which powers can be changed as a 0-Phase or half-phase action, because the character can easily switch from a power that is Limited by a certain condition to one that is not. For example, if VariPowerMan used his VPP to pull up a 15d6 EB with the Limited Power - Does Not Work Against Purple, I'd give that a -0 Lim Value if he was able to switch Powers every Phase, simply because if he happened to run into The Grape Ape, he could next phase change to EB, Does Not work Against Orange. Now, this same limit might be okay if VariPowerMan could only change his VPP between adventures, or if he had a Limitation on his VPP Control Cost such that no power he created with the VPP ever affected the color purple. This is all assuming such a Limitation even made sense for the VPP's special effects, of course.

 

In general, I tend to allow Limitations on VPP Powers only under three conditions. The first is Limitations that are purchased on the Control Cost and automatically affect all powers bought through the VPP. A VPP that never works against yellow targets, a Speedster Powers VPP in which all Powers were Restrainable, a Gadget Pool requiring every Power taken from the pool to be OIF, IAF or OAF (-1/2 Lim) or a Magic Pool, in which the character had to use Gestures and Incantations on every spell are all fine.

 

Second, I sometimes bend the rules and allow people to purchase Special Powers (Enhanced Senses, Knockback Resistance, Damage Reduction and such) through their VPPs if they take the "Costs END" Limitation on the Power. This same Limitation broadly allows characters to purchase such Powers through an EC, so I see no reason to not allow it in a VPP, so long as the Power in question fits the VPPs special effects. The same thing is true of Limitations that significantly impact the effectiveness of the Power in a general manner - Extra Time is a good example, or Increased END Cost. These impact the flow of combat and/or the Power's effectiveness in a fight, or cause the character to deplete resources.

 

Third, I think it's fine to allow characters to Limit a VPP slot to give chosen Powers a Limitation they should logically have to fit special effects. For example, if Chemico had a VPP of Chemical Powers and used it to create a NND RKA, Does Body defined as an Acid Blast, the No Knockback Limitation (-1/4) makes sense -acid does damage through chemical processes, not impact, after all - and I have no problem with allowing Limitations which actually fit/portray special effects, vs. those chosen simply so the character can save Real Points in order to have more powers simultaneously active.

[OddHat]

Re: Instruction Request: VPP vs MP

 

Seconding almost everything said by Jeffrey, I'd add:

 

1) Charges on VPP slots. This is a common and legal construction, but it's very easy to get around by claiming "That was my 1 charge Zeta blast; Now I switch to my 1 charge Gamma blast." I don't generally allow mutiple instances of the same power in a VPP; Instead I treat all powers as having Variable Advantages and Limitations as a built in part of the Controll Cost. Once you use your one charge of Zeta blast, that's it; you have no more Energy Blasts available until that charge recovers, even if you want to switch special effects.

 

2) Uncontrolled and VPPs: I allow this, but it's easy to abuse. Keep a close eye on it, or your players will quickly have a dozen powers all up and running uncontrolled from the same VPP. You may or may not wish to permit this depending on genre.

 

4) Continuing charges in VPPs: Again, I allow this, but I require Uncontrolled to be purchased on the power as well. Otherwise the continuing charge, especially a fuel based continuing charge, ammounts to giving the player a free power.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Instruction Request: VPP vs MP

 

Second' date=' I sometimes bend the rules and allow people to purchase Special Powers (Enhanced Senses, Knockback Resistance, Damage Reduction and such) through their VPPs if they take the "Costs END" Limitation on the Power. This same Limitation broadly allows characters to purchase such Powers through an EC, so I see no reason to not allow it in a VPP, so long as the Power in question fits the VPPs special effects. The same thing is true of Limitations that significantly impact the effectiveness of the Power in a general manner - Extra Time is a good example, or Increased END Cost. These impact the flow of combat and/or the Power's effectiveness in a fight, or cause the character to deplete resources.[/quote']

 

Actually, unless there's a change in 5ER, the rules for VPP don't dissallow any power. You can legally put a 0END or Special Power in a VPP without requiring it to cost END or anything else. They are not, by default, restricted the way ECs are.

 

In fact, you can put anything you want in a VPP if the GM allows it - I have one character with a VPP just for Knowledge-Type Skills of various types (Area, Sciene, Knowledges, etc).

 

House Rules, as always, may vary according to taste.

 

This is the most dangerous aspect of a VPP - unless the GM restricts it a VPP may hold anything with it (Stats, Skills, Powers, Talents, even Perks) as long as the player can justify the SFX. As a GM one should never be afraid to flat out deny a construct within a VPP if it'll be a game breaker.

[Just A Guy Name]

Re: Instruction Request: VPP vs MP

 

Actually' date=' unless there's a change in 5ER, the rules for VPP don't dissallow any power. You can legally put a 0END or Special Power in a VPP without requiring it to cost END or anything else. They are not, by default, restricted the way ECs are.[/quote']I think VPPs are subject to the same limitations as ECs are, according to the General Rules for Power Frameworks (which JWK seems to be referring to). Plus, of course, the additional GM scrutiny a Stop Sign Modifier (VPP) would call for, over and above what an EC would warrant.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: Instruction Request: VPP vs MP

 

Actually, unless there's a change in 5ER, the rules for VPP don't dissallow any power. You can legally put a 0END or Special Power in a VPP without requiring it to cost END or anything else. They are not, by default, restricted the way ECs are.

 

In fact, you can put anything you want in a VPP if the GM allows it - I have one character with a VPP just for Knowledge-Type Skills of various types (Area, Sciene, Knowledges, etc).

 

By default, Special Powers, Skills, Perks and Talents are not allowed in VPPs - or any sort of Power Framework, in fact - unless the GM decrees otherwise. Many GMs allow exceptions - as they should, for certain circumstances. There's no reason to not allow a Dr. Strange/Silver Surfer kind of character to purchase certain sense powers within a VPP (so long as they fit special effect/character conception). At the same time, the EC restriction (everthing should either cost END or be an END-cost Power bought down to 0-END) is a reasonable balancing factor for VPPs. One might also allow Power constructs based on Skills but built as powers - such as one guy in the books (Pulsar? I can't recall offhand) who has blink-teleport purchased as Combat Skill Levels which cost END - at GM option.

 

Most GMs I know who allow characters to purchase straight Skills from VPPs at all at all only allow them within Skill Pools - VPPs which are restricted to a certain type of skill.

 

Ultimately, though, as with all things in HERO, it's up to what the GM says is okay.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Instruction Request: VPP vs MP

 

Ah yeah, my bad. nevermind me. Missed that General Rules part when going over the VPP rules...

 

We tend to allow anything within a VPP as long as the SFX justify it and it doesn't break the spirit of the game or character.

[PCD]

Re: Instruction Request: VPP vs MP

 

Thanks for the help!

[Tom Carman]

Re: Instruction Request: VPP vs MP

 

VPP: The VPP reserve is based on RP' date=' not AP, so the amount of AP you can have active in the pool at once depends on how many limitations are applied to those powers.[/quote']

Not quite. The VPP uses both Real Points and Active Points. The maximum size of any single power is the AP of the reserve. The maximum of all powers used at once is the RP of the reserve. In contrast, the MP can only have up to the AP of the reserve active at the same time.

[Zed-F]

Re: Instruction Request: VPP vs MP

 

Yes, I left the AP cap portion out of the description, since I was talking purely about how many AP of effect you could have at once. Anyway it's pretty clear in FREd.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Instruction Request: VPP vs MP

 

My comparison is basically like this:

 

Both MP and VPP have maximum AP equal to their pool.

 

MP changes instantly by default. VPP requires time and skill rolls by default.

 

MP pool costs can be reduced by limitations. VPP pool cost cannot be decreased by limitations.

 

MP allocates its active points so limited slots do not reduce pool usage. VPP allocates its real points so limited slots do reduce pool usage.

 

MP slots are paid for individually. VP slots are paid for in total (the control cost).

 

Consider: I want all powers (slots) to have 60 AP each, and I want two up at a time. All powers will be OAF.

 

I can buy a 120 point multipower pool for 60 points, and each ultra slot costs 3 points. Total cost: 66. New slots cost 3 points each.

 

I can buy the VPP pool for 60 points, control cost 15, for a total cost of 75. If I want to change slots at will, the control cost leaps to 45. It now switches like a multipower.

 

Now, how many slots do you want? If you would have 10 slots, the Multipower is cheaper (30 points for slots vs 45 for the control cost). If you want 20 slots, the VPP is cheaper (60 points for slots vs 45 for control cost). At 15 slots, they each cost the same amount. There is a breakpoint where the multipower should evolve into a VPP (even a VPP whose slots are always predefined and switch on a cosmic basis).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Instruction Request: VPP vs MP

 

Wouldn't the Control Cost of your VPP be 30 points?

 

Or am I missing something in your example?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Instruction Request: VPP vs MP

 

Wouldn't the Control Cost of your VPP be 30 points?

 

Or am I missing something in your example?

 

Control cost would be 60 x 1/2 = 30/2 for OAF on all powers = 15.

 

Make it Cosmic and now it's 60 x 1/2 = 30 x 3 for 0 phase, no roll = 90 /2 for OAF = 45.

 

Unless I'm missing something!

 

Remember, the Multipower needs 120 AP to use 2 60 AP powers at once (it needs 120 points to allocate to these two powers). The VP only needs 60 points because each power benefits from the OAF limitation, and only costs 30 Real Poiints.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Instruction Request: VPP vs MP

 

Ah, I missed the OAF on the Control Cost. In fact, I completely missed the line stating the OAF would be there even after rereading it. Is what I get for reading when I'm half asleep.

 

yeesh.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Instruction Request: VPP vs MP

 

Ah' date=' I missed the OAF on the Control Cost. In fact, I completely missed the line stating the OAF would be there even after rereading it. Is what I get for reading when I'm half asleep.[/quote']

 

Oddly, when I read your post this morning, my first thought was "that's what I get for posting late in the day".