How to: Shapeshift

[Havyk]

I have a player who is developing the ability to shapeshift, and i want him to be able to assume the abilities of the form he changes into (ie. no house cats with 20 STR). Now I plan to use a VPP linked to his shapeshift to allow him to 'develop' the special abilities of the form he assumes. But I have 2 questions.

1. The Base cost of the VPP isn't affected by the Linked limitation, correct, only the control cost.

2. I'm thinking of allowing him to redistribute the points in his physical stats to the values of the form he is assuming, but don't know what value to set to this advantage (which I would put on shapeshift). I'm thinking +0 or +1/4 because his new stats can not be above the forms normal stats (but can be lower).

Think of it as turning all the characters physical stats into a VPP (which is essentially a +1/2 advantage), linked to shapeshift (-1/4), to duplicate the form's (ie animal's) stats only, excess points are 'lost' (-1/4).

 

P.S. Don't suggest Multiform, I want the PC to keep his Disadvantages, Skills, and Mental stats since he is the same person, just with a differnt body.

[ghost-angel]

Re: How to: Shapeshift

 

1) Yes, only the control cost of the VPP is affected.

 

2) If you use Shapeshift, which is a Sense Affecting Power, you will need a number of other powers to simulate the stat changes. Shapeshift allows a character to LOOK like another item/creature, not become another item. Shapeshift has no provisions to change/add physical stats. Shapeshifting into a tiger for instance does not give you claws, you just appear to have claws.

 

You really do want Multiform. But keep in mind, Multiform can be the same person with a different arrangement of stats or what have you. All you do is build the Multiform with all the same skills, disads and mental powers and change the aspects you want to change and adjust it for the creature in question (adding appropriate physical Disads, DCV changes for larger/smaller creatures, Knockback Resistance for larger creatures, adding claws and teeth, etc...)

 

There's nothing stating Multiform must have different personalities.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: How to: Shapeshift

 

I have a player who is developing the ability to shapeshift, and i want him to be able to assume the abilities of the form he changes into (ie. no house cats with 20 STR). Now I plan to use a VPP linked to his shapeshift to allow him to 'develop' the special abilities of the form he assumes. But I have 2 questions.

1. The Base cost of the VPP isn't affected by the Linked limitation, correct, only the control cost.

2. I'm thinking of allowing him to redistribute the points in his physical stats to the values of the form he is assuming, but don't know what value to set to this advantage (which I would put on shapeshift). I'm thinking +0 or +1/4 because his new stats can not be above the forms normal stats (but can be lower).

Think of it as turning all the characters physical stats into a VPP (which is essentially a +1/2 advantage), linked to shapeshift (-1/4), to duplicate the form's (ie animal's) stats only, excess points are 'lost' (-1/4).

 

P.S. Don't suggest Multiform, I want the PC to keep his Disadvantages, Skills, and Mental stats since he is the same person, just with a differnt body.

 

1). Correct. Nothing ever affects the Pool cost of a VPP. Advantages and Limitations affect the Control cost.

 

2) If a character's physical stats change to match his assumed shape, but only within the limits set by his normal shape, I don't see any Advantage here at all - if anything, a Limitation, or perhaps just a special effect.

 

If I get what you're saying, if the character takes the form of a cat, his STR and BODY would go down, since a cat has less STR and BODY than a full-sized humanoid... but if he turned into a gorilla or other form stronger than him, he doesn't gain any stat increases? If that's the case, I'd probably make this a Limitation on the Shapechange (not the VPP) - STR, DEX, CON, BODY Scale to Assumed Shape, But No Higher Than Base Characteristics. That'd probably be a -1/2 Limitation on Shapechange, given the usefulness of those Characteristics - if he turns into an armadillo, his DEX (and thus his CV) goes down... if he turns into a cat, he keeps his DEX, but loses STR and probably CON (it's easier to stun a cat than a person) and BODY (cats can take less damage than people).

 

With this, the VPP concept could still be useful, if the VPP is used to provide abilities (Powers) typically possessed by animals. If he becomes an armadillo, he gets a bit of armor (with the Limitation 12- Activation unless taking full defensive action, full Activation if taking full Defensive Action, total value probably -1/2) and a bit of Tunneling. If he becomes a dog, he gets Tracking Scent, Ultrasonic Hearing, a small KA bite and maybe a couple inches of running... if he becomes a wolf, he gets the above, but a bigger KA. I'd also allow a character like this to purchase increased Characteristics if they fit the form (a chimp or gorilla is stronger than a human).

[casualplayer]

Re: How to: Shapeshift

 

It'll take GM's permission, but it sounds like you are the GM so go ahead and greenlight it if so inclined.

 

Have the character sell back to 0 all the stats that would change with his form (STR, DEX, CON, BODY, PRE, COM, SPD) and then work up a VPP set that represents his base form. It would help to know the character's stat values but a 105 pt pool would restore his values to normal human, with a larger pool required if he has enhanced stats. It basically turns the character into a blank slate that you can overlay a critter template onto whenever he changes. It will blow every possible active point cap you could have ever possibly imagined to do it this way, since it will require at least a 250 pt pool for the character to be able to emulate the most popular animals. That is in addition to the Power Pool costs!

 

Most people go the VPP Only for Multiforms route, and make their player invest in a HERO Bestiary.

 

This is the most glaring example of where HERO comes up short emulating fantasy literature. Crunching it out is hideously complex and point expensive for an ability that is common as dirt in comics and novels.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: How to: Shapeshift

 

Ghost Angel is correct that wanting the character to keep the same Disads doesn't rule out Multiform. You may have different disads in each form, but nothing says they must be different...

 

That said, another, possibly simpler, way to handle it would be to just figure out the extremes of characteristics and powers he could conceivably have while Shape Shifted, and buy that level of all of them, with the Limitation "Only When Shape Shifted Into An Appropriate Form, and Only To The Level Appropriate For That Form". I'd give this Limitation a -1, similar to the lesser version of No Conscious Control. You decide what form to shift to, and therefore you get some control over what stats you get, but you have to take all of that form's stats... you can't get the elephant's STR and the cheetah's DEX, for example. Then also take a Physical Limitation that your CHAs decline even below their starting value when Shape Shifted into an appropriate form. (For example, if you Shape Shift into a housecat, your STR will drop.)

 

This sounds quite a bit more complex than it really is.

 

Let's say we're building Beast Boy. He can change into animal forms. You might decide that the strongest thing he could shift into is an elephant (STR 40). So you buy however much STR is needed to increase his starting STR to 40, and apply the Limitation described above. The fastest thing he can shift into is a cheetah (DEX 26). The hardiest thing is the elephant again (CON 30). Etc. He can fly in avian forms at a max of, say, 15", he can swim in aquatic forms at a max of 10", and so on.

 

Just buy all this stuff with the -1 Limitation. No VPP, no Multiform... just Shape Shift and powers/stats with the Limitation. I wouldn't worry about selling back stats and re-buying them to simulate when his abilities are dropped due to small animals, weak animals, etc. A Physical Limitation would cover that more easily.

 

Or actually, if you want all of his forms to involve trade-offs in some way (this one is stronger but slower, that one is faster but weaker, etc.) you could use Side Effect for the dropped stats.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How to: Shapeshift

 

Put me down as a vote for Multiform into animal forms (VPP is easiest here).

 

The point complexity is undeniable - each form has to be statted out. This is way easier in literature than in a game, unfortunately, since an author can simply decide what a mouse can and cannot do. In a game, the player and GM need common ground in this regard.

 

Is it "hideously point-ineffective"? I don't think so. What should this cost?

 

Say 100 points for the VPP pool (that will get a 500 point animal, and I don't believe any animals reach this size in the Bestiary). Control cost should be Cosmic (0 phase and automatic to change), so that's +2 in advantages. "Only to take the forms and physical abilities of real animals with the character's non-physical abilities and disadvantages" as a limitation should be what? I'd say -1 at least. So that's 100 x 1/2 x 3/2 = 75, for a total cost of 175 points. You can now shift into the form of any animal you want. As a Super, you paid half your points for that ability, which does not seem inordinate to me.

 

As a Heroic character, I see this as being a Fantasy ability. It would likely be more resricted (ie less points). Fantasy characters tend to shift into wolf form, not Tyranosaurus form, and are generally more limited (for example, they might require a skill rolll, or Concentrate, or take extra time to shift), so it could be done with a 150 point character. Take the pool down to 60 (any animal up to 300 points). Remove zero phase (it will take you a full phase to change the form) and the control cost is 60 1/2 x 2/2 = 30 for a total cost of 90 for a potent ability with very minimal limitations compared to most spells.

 

It doesn't have to be a VPP, either. For the same 175 points, you could have 32,768 different animal forms. Good luck statting those out. Assuming you change shape every phase and have a 6 SPD, it will take over 18 hours to cycle through all your forms.

 

For the 90 point cost, you could have "only" 64 shapes. How many do you need?

 

And you don't have to pay for shape shift, as different (multi) forms are supposed to look - well, different.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: How to: Shapeshift

 

Derek - your suggestion to use Side Effects to reflect lowered characteristics is an interesting one - that may have potential.

 

The larger idea you have, though - buying a bunch of abilities and putting a limit on them (only when shapechanged to appropriate form, only at level appropriate to form, etc.), while not a bad idea, really only works if the character in question can take a fairly limited number of forms... or at least only forms with a fairly limited range of abilities

 

If the character can take lots of different forms with different animal abilities, that requires buying a huge number of abilities. Some abilities animals have in the real world include:

active sonar (bats, whales)

detect EM fields (sharks, platypi)

bump of direction (salmon, migratory birds)

flash (horned toads - they squirt jets of blood into opponent's eyes)

flash + nnd, continuing, uncontrolled (skunk)

gliding (flying squirrels, draco lizards)

glide (or fly) only along water (surfaces) (Basilisk lizard)

entangle (spiders)

NND KA, i.e. various types of venom (poisonous snakes, spiders, platypi)

no range Energy Blast (electric eels)

invisible power effects (to touch, hearing) attack (vampire bats)

360-degree vision (insects)

clinging (too many to name)

flight, restrainable (wings) too many to name

feign death w/ linked Life Support, i.e. hibernation (too many to name)

armor (turtles, crocodiles, rhinos)

infrared sense (pit vipers)

ultraviolet vision (owls,cats)

tracking scent, discriminatory scent (rats, wolves, dogs, sharks)

KA Damage Shield (larger sharks, which have rough, abrasive skin)

limited regeneration (earthworms)

leaping (kangaroos, fleas)

invisibility w/ fringe (lynxes, chameleons, numerous insects and predators)

HKA, i.e., fangs, claws (too many to name)

double-jointed (hamsters)

tunneling (moles, armadillos, wombats, worms)

extra PRE w/ gestures or "incantations" (gorillas, lions)

enhanced swimming too many to name)

LS: extended breathing (numerous aquatic mammals and reptiles)

LS: Intense Cold (polar bears, penguins, walruses)

Damage Reduction (boars, bears, wolverines)

Darkness, only underwater (squid and octopi)

Extra Limbs (insects, arachnids, etc.)

extra STR, only for Grab (mantis, crabs, scorpions)

 

I'm sure I could come up with more. Anyhow, the point is, to buy all these, when you'll almost never use more than 1-2 at a time, and will rarely use some of them at all, is cost-prohibitive. The effect virtually cries out for an Animal Powers VPP, ala Animal Man or Vixen

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: How to: Shapeshift

 

One potential problem for doing "shapechange into different animals" as a Multiform is that depending on the starting points for the campaign, you may not be able to take certain, larger forms that cost quite a bit. On the other hand, that really only applies to a fairly limited range of animals (some of the dinosaurs, as I recall). I think tigers, bears, lions and most of the popular animals all come in under 300 pts, so even given human intelligence and better SPD, etc, you should be able to take most animal forms for under 350 pts. Larger multiforms, should you take any, have to pay for the cost between base character cost and the form cost with additional disads. Of course, some disads readily apply to most animals anyhow (limited manipulation; cold-blooded for some of them; etc.)

 

Multiform certainly is a valid way of doing this effect. yeah, it's a hassle writing up a gazillion multiforms, but keep in mind a) the Bestiary has done a lot of them for you, and many Disads will carry over from form to form.

[SleepyDrug]

Re: How to: Shapeshift

 

For a metamorph, VPP is the way to go.

 

Raising stats is then a none-issue if you have room in the pool.

Lowering stats could be a Limitation (Stats cannot be higher than form mimiced)

 

Multi-Form limits the number of forms they can assume.

 

As for Shape-Shift. I don't agree with the "sense-affecting power" analogy. It seems closer to Extra-Limbs/Growth/Density Increase. It isn't just a sense affecting power, you really alter your shape.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: How to: Shapeshift

 

As for Shape-Shift. I don't agree with the "sense-affecting power" analogy. It seems closer to Extra-Limbs/Growth/Density Increase. It isn't just a sense affecting power' date=' you really alter your shape.[/quote']

 

The problem is, the actual rules treat it otherwise, in order to cover the full range of possible effects that might cause someone to look differently than their true form, all the way from magical disguises (shape shift to one or only a few shapes) all the way through full, actual changes of shape. To borrow DnD concepts a bit, in HERO, different levels/degrees of the same power (Shapeshift) are used to describe a wide range of spells, from the fairly limited (Change Self) to those producing full body change (Polymorph).

[SleepyDrug]

Re: How to: Shapeshift

 

The problem is' date=' the actual rules treat it otherwise, in order to cover the full range of possible effects that might cause someone to look differently than their true form, all the way from magical disguises (shape shift to one or only a few shapes) all the way through full, actual changes of shape. To borrow DnD concepts a bit, in HERO, different levels/degrees of the same power (Shapeshift) are used to describe a wide range of spells, from the fairly limited (Change Self) to those producing full body change (Polymorph).[/quote']

 

Except thats not right because duplicating Polymorph or being a metamorph requires more than the shapeshift power. Shapeshift allows someone to change their physical appearance and possibly mimic the Extra Limbs power. Unlike Inivisibility, Shapeshift does include a physical change. If I shapeshift to look like a chair, I really AM a chair.

 

The actual rules in fifth addition are treating an apple like an orange (if you'll parden the analogy).

[ghost-angel]

Re: How to: Shapeshift

 

The reason I say Shapeshift is a Sense affecting power is because you buy it versus various Senses.

 

Shapeshift vs Sight Group Sense means you Look different, but if someone touches you or uses sonar to detect you then it fails. In order to use Shapeshift to *become* something else you should conceivably buy it versus all Senses: Sight, Hearing, Touch, Smell/Taste and maybe even Mental if you want mentalists to believe your're a house cat.

 

Shapeshift also does not allow you to alter your Size/Mass. If you're a human (100kg, 2m) and want to Shapeshift into a house cate (5kg, .25m or something like that...) you MUST buy Shrinking linked to it (otherwise you're one LARGE house cat). If you want to grow bigger then you need Growth, and possibly Density Increase.

 

With Multiform you don't worry about ANY of that. You simply buy Multiform to the max point level you could need, stick it in a VPP and now you can become all sorts of things and all you need is to slightly modify a lot of already made animals (the Beastiary is pretty much a Must Buy for this kind of power, it'll save you hours of time). As for the Disads, keep the Psychological ones the same, the Hunteds stay the same, pretty much everything, and you could even get a few more for Limited Manipulation, Quasi-Animal Mind/Instinct, Size, etc... (though to lesser values, possibly half as much, since things like Limited Manipulation aren't as limiting when you can shift back to human form)

 

Shapeshift is good for disguise powers, minor ploymorph type powers and the like. Unlike Multiform if you Shapeshift into an Elephant you need to link all the powers you'd use to make an Elephant to the Shapeshift: Knockback Resistance, Extra Limb(trunk), Tusks(hka's),STR, CON, BODY, etc... all with a "Linked:Shapeshift" Limitation, in which case you are now getting expensive, especially if you want many forms.

 

If you want more out of it, I strongly suggest Multiform with either a large number of forms or in a VPP: Multiform Only - I believe the standard limitation for that is -1/4 on the control cost. If you make it "Multiform to Standard Animal Only" I'd be inclined to go up to -1 depending on the campaign, "Multiform to Any Animal" might be worth -1/2, that's all on the GM to decide how limiting that particular VPP might be.

[kloster]

Re: How to: Shapeshift

 

Hi,

 

If I remember welll, Multiform is a standard power. The best way (but the slowest) is to have ... a VPP or Multipower to perform the multiforms. Just refuse the player to create new forms on the spot if you wish to avoid the game being bogged down.

 

Kloster

[SleepyDrug]

Re: How to: Shapeshift

 

The reason I say Shapeshift is a Sense affecting power is because you buy it versus various Senses.

 

Shapeshift vs Sight Group Sense means you Look different, but if someone touches you or uses sonar to detect you then it fails. In order to use Shapeshift to *become* something else you should conceivably buy it versus all Senses: Sight, Hearing, Touch, Smell/Taste and maybe even Mental if you want mentalists to believe your're a house cat.

 

This is the problem. That is *not* true. If I have Shapeshift (only to turn my skin blue) then my skin is blue. The pigmentation really changed. It does *not* fail because someone touches me.

 

The point of Shapeshift *is* to become something else. Extra Limbs lets me have an extra arm for 5 points. But if I want Shapeshift to grow Extra Limbs or other physical changes as desired then I must pay 25 points plus 2 END a phase?!?

 

Shapeshift into a cat as a sense-effecting power is essentially an illusion (Images).

 

Shapeshift also does not allow you to alter your Size/Mass. If you're a human (100kg, 2m) and want to Shapeshift into a house cate (5kg, .25m or something like that...) you MUST buy Shrinking linked to it (otherwise you're one LARGE house cat). If you want to grow bigger then you need Growth, and possibly Density Increase.

 

True, which is the primary balancing factor. Shape-shift needs adders (cellular, imitation) or other powers (growth, density increase, shrinking, hka, enhanced senses, etc) to gain truely unusual forms.

 

With Multiform you don't worry about ANY of that. You simply buy Multiform to the max point level you could need, stick it in a VPP and now you can become all sorts of things and all you need is to slightly modify a lot of already made animals (the Beastiary is pretty much a Must Buy for this kind of power, it'll save you hours of time). As for the Disads, keep the Psychological ones the same, the Hunteds stay the same, pretty much everything, and you could even get a few more for Limited Manipulation, Quasi-Animal Mind/Instinct, Size, etc... (though to lesser values, possibly half as much, since things like Limited Manipulation aren't as limiting when you can shift back to human form)

 

Maybe you lost me here. Are you suggesting a Multi-Form IN a VPP so you can shift the VPP for an unlimited number of Multi-Forms?? Sounds illegal to me. More proper would be an EC with Shapeshift, DI, Growth, Shrinking and then a VPP for form specific powers.

 

Shapeshift is good for disguise powers, minor ploymorph type powers and the like. Unlike Multiform if you Shapeshift into an Elephant you need to link all the powers you'd use to make an Elephant to the Shapeshift: Knockback Resistance, Extra Limb(trunk), Tusks(hka's),STR, CON, BODY, etc... all with a "Linked:Shapeshift" Limitation, in which case you are now getting expensive, especially if you want many forms.

 

If you want more out of it, I strongly suggest Multiform with either a large number of forms or in a VPP: Multiform Only - I believe the standard limitation for that is -1/4 on the control cost. If you make it "Multiform to Standard Animal Only" I'd be inclined to go up to -1 depending on the campaign, "Multiform to Any Animal" might be worth -1/2, that's all on the GM to decide how limiting that particular VPP might be.

 

Shapeshift alone is a minor polymorph type power. For a true metamorph, use a VPP or an EC and VPP.

[ghost-angel]

Re: How to: Shapeshift

 

This is the problem. That is *not* true. If I have Shapeshift (only to turn my skin blue) then my skin is blue. The pigmentation really changed. It does *not* fail because someone touches me.

 

It's obviously up to dramatic sense and GM call ... a Shapeshift: Sight Group - Can turn skin Blue, won't fail to a sense of touch as your skin hasn't change.

 

However, a Shapeshift: Sight Group - can look like a Klingon may actually fail to other senses depending on how Klingons are defined .. a super-touch sense that can senses surfaces at range (ala Dare Devil) probably will fail as while you LOOK Klingon, you don't FEEL Klingon (some bumps will be missing).

 

The point of Shapeshift *is* to become something else. Extra Limbs lets me have an extra arm for 5 points. But if I want Shapeshift to grow Extra Limbs or other physical changes as desired then I must pay 25 points plus 2 END a phase?!?

 

Shapeshift into a cat as a sense-effecting power is essentially an illusion (Images).

 

Then why do you have to be Shapeshift vs various Senses and not just a ShapeShift Power?

 

"A character with Shapeshift can change his form as Perceived by one or more Sense Groups..." 5Ep139 (first sentence under Shapeshift)

 

Not actually change their form, but simply change it versus the perception of a particular sense, or senses. There is a BIG difference. HUGE.

 

It may be semtantics but in this case it's a very very important semantic. Shapeshift allows you to change how your form is perceived, Mutliform actually changes your form.

 

 

True, which is the primary balancing factor. Shape-shift needs adders (cellular, imitation) or other powers (growth, density increase, shrinking, hka, enhanced senses, etc) to gain truely unusual forms.

 

agree completely.

 

Maybe you lost me here. Are you suggesting a Multi-Form IN a VPP so you can shift the VPP for an unlimited number of Multi-Forms?? Sounds illegal to me. More proper would be an EC with Shapeshift, DI, Growth, Shrinking and then a VPP for form specific powers.

 

Yes, place Muliform inside a VPP.

 

VPP; "MultiForm Only" (generally agreed upon that it's a -1/4 Limitation, as it's limitations are similar to that of a 'magic' SFX limitations)

 

Multiform is a Standard Power, which is legally allowed inside a VPP.

 

I won't disagree that an EC with Shapeshift, DI, Growth, Shrinking and a VPP for specialized power would also work. There's always more than one way. Some are just easier than others.

 

 

Shapeshift alone is a minor polymorph type power. For a true metamorph, use a VPP or an EC and VPP.

 

And Mutliform can't be used for a true Metamorph why?

[Zeropoint]

Re: How to: Shapeshift

 

I've interpreted the shapeshift rules to mean that Shapeshift vs Touch actually changes your shape (since touching something would, obviously, tell you what it was shaped like). Shapeshift vs Touch to look like a Klingon, and you have the forehead ridges. However, you smell like a Human, sound like a Human, and if you're Caucasian, your skin isn't dark enough. For a great example of what Shapeshift only vs. touch does, look at Plastic Man. he can change into any shape, but it will always come out red, yellow, and fleshtone.

 

With shapeshift vs touch and sight, you can assume a new form well enough that a typical human with no extra senses would be extremely hard-pressed to tell the difference.

 

You will probably need other powers to simulate a competent shapeshifter, although not necessarily. The T-1000, for instance, was restricted to a fixed volume and mass.

 

Well, that's my take on it.

 

Zeropoint

[kloster]

Re: How to: Shapeshift

 

Hi,

 

...

 

Maybe you lost me here. Are you suggesting a Multi-Form IN a VPP so you can shift the VPP for an unlimited number of Multi-Forms?? Sounds illegal to me. More proper would be an EC with Shapeshift, DI, Growth, Shrinking and then a VPP for form specific powers.

 

....

 

Yes exactly. Multiform is a standard power, and thus can be placed in a VPP. You can have a specialized VPP. The only problem is that if the forms are not defined in advance, the play is terribly slowed.

 

Your solution works also (EC, or EC + VPP), but is more complicated.

 

Regards,

 

Kloster

[ghost-angel]

Re: How to: Shapeshift

 

I've interpreted the shapeshift rules to mean that Shapeshift vs Touch actually changes your shape (since touching something would, obviously, tell you what it was shaped like). Shapeshift vs Touch to look like a Klingon, and you have the forehead ridges. However, you smell like a Human, sound like a Human, and if you're Caucasian, your skin isn't dark enough. For a great example of what Shapeshift only vs. touch does, look at Plastic Man. he can change into any shape, but it will always come out red, yellow, and fleshtone.

 

With shapeshift vs touch and sight, you can assume a new form well enough that a typical human with no extra senses would be extremely hard-pressed to tell the difference.

 

You will probably need other powers to simulate a competent shapeshifter, although not necessarily. The T-1000, for instance, was restricted to a fixed volume and mass.

 

Well, that's my take on it.

 

Zeropoint

 

That's pretty much my take on it as well. Shapeshift: Touch Group is the only one that will actually change your shape .. the rest only change the perception of your shape.

[SleepyDrug]

Re: How to: Shapeshift

 

Then why do you have to be Shapeshift vs various Senses and not just a ShapeShift Power?

 

Exactly, I think Shapeshift should be as it was in 4th ed. When you actually did change shape. Otherwise, why not dump Shapeshift and just use Images?

 

Yes, place Muliform inside a VPP.

 

VPP; "MultiForm Only" (generally agreed upon that it's a -1/4 Limitation, as it's limitations are similar to that of a 'magic' SFX limitations)

 

Multiform is a Standard Power, which is legally allowed inside a VPP.

 

I won't disagree that an EC with Shapeshift, DI, Growth, Shrinking and a VPP for specialized power would also work. There's always more than one way. Some are just easier than others.

 

It just seems wrong to me to buy a VPP for *one* power and be able to continually alter it. Basically, your not using the VPP to simulate a vast array of powers but to circumnavigate a limit placed on the power in the rules (i.e. a limited number of multi-forms).

 

The Meta-Rules (FREd pg 348) says that if there are two equally valid ways to construct a power, the more expensive method is the correct option to use. Thus, the EC & VPP method I proposed is more valid than the VPP for one power only.

 

Also, VPP's (pg 209) are to allow the character to "create any power or and power with a given special effect." The clear implication is that it is intended for multiple powers. Not to give one power a by around it's inherent rules.

[Kristopher]

Re: How to: Shapeshift

 

Hi,

 

Yes exactly. Multiform is a standard power, and thus can be placed in a VPP. You can have a specialized VPP. The only problem is that if the forms are not defined in advance, the play is terribly slowed.

 

Your solution works also (EC, or EC + VPP), but is more complicated.

 

Regards,

 

 

Why would you want to put Multiform in a VPP? Don't you end up paying more because of the control cost on top of the pool cost itself?

[JayH]

Re: How to: Shapeshift

 

Why would you want to put Multiform in a VPP? Don't you end up paying more because of the control cost on top of the pool cost itself?

 

I thought Hugh did a nifty job with the cost examples of this way vs just buying Multiform with lots of x2 forms. For the same price (depending on power level) you would have do decide if you would be satisfied with just dozens or hundreds or thousands of forms? I probably would be. But I can imagine cases where a player might want his character to not be limited by "pre-defined" forms. "I don't want to have a gorilla's stats, I want to have that gorilla's stats!" There's probably others.

 

The just Multiform way might better represent a character who has to learn more forms as he adventures. I think I'd enjoy that story line.

 

If it wasn't clear before... I'm definitely in the Multiform boat. After all... "a wizard's ability to assume the form of any animal" (5E 137) is a specifically named use of this power. And I wish they'd kept Captain Zoology as the example under the Multiform rules. Captain Zoology rocked the house.

[SleepyDrug]

Re: How to: Shapeshift

 

JayH is right. The Multi-Form only VPP is to allow an unlimited number of Multi-Forms and avoid the point cost extra forms.

[ghost-angel]

Re: How to: Shapeshift

 

Exactly' date=' I think Shapeshift should be as it was in 4th ed. When you actually did change shape. Otherwise, why not dump Shapeshift and just use Images?[/quote']

 

Because Images allow a Perception Roll vs the affect sense, Shapeshift doesn't.

 

Which of the two powers you would want to use would end up being determined by the SFX of the power in question.

 

It just seems wrong to me to buy a VPP for *one* power and be able to continually alter it. Basically, your not using the VPP to simulate a vast array of powers but to circumnavigate a limit placed on the power in the rules (i.e. a limited number of multi-forms).

 

The Meta-Rules (FREd pg 348) says that if there are two equally valid ways to construct a power, the more expensive method is the correct option to use. Thus, the EC & VPP method I proposed is more valid than the VPP for one power only.

 

Also, VPP's (pg 209) are to allow the character to "create any power or and power with a given special effect." The clear implication is that it is intended for multiple powers. Not to give one power a by around it's inherent rules.

 

I'll address those 1 at a time.

 

1) It seems that way, but when you look at Multipower it actually allows you to have all the available powers. Including ones not techincally allowed inside a VPP itself.

 

2) I place MetaRules in the same bucket as MetaGaming ... I dislike them both.

 

3) Mutliform can have several different special effects in and of itself. It can be used to simulate many many different powers as well (Multiform Battlesuits for example).

 

I will add VPP: Multiform Only is not only a very dangerous thing, but should be closely watched for abuse.

 

Also, any powers you've bought outside that VPP disappear when you activate that Multiform, so unless that's your ONLY power (BeastBoy from Teen Titans for example) you will not be utilizing all your other purchased powers all the time.

[SleepyDrug]

Re: How to: Shapeshift

 

First, Ghost Angel. Thanks for a well-thought out discussion on this topic.

 

1) It seems that way, but when you look at Multipower it actually allows you to have all the available powers. Including ones not techincally allowed inside a VPP itself.

 

I assume you mean Multi-Form here. However, the rules do say that the GM should make exceptions for any power that fits the special FX of a VPP. So this argument is moot.

 

2) I place MetaRules in the same bucket as MetaGaming ... I dislike them both.

 

The MetaRules exist to prevent MetaGaming. Btw, I consider VPP: Multiform only to *be* MetaGaming. Because the primary reason seems to be to save points by circumnavigating the rules of the power.

 

3) Mutliform can have several different special effects in and of itself. It can be used to simulate many many different powers as well (Multiform Battlesuits for example).

 

true.

 

I will add VPP: Multiform Only is not only a very dangerous thing, but should be closely watched for abuse.

 

Also, any powers you've bought outside that VPP disappear when you activate that Multiform, so unless that's your ONLY power (BeastBoy from Teen Titans for example) you will not be utilizing all your other purchased powers all the time.

 

I agree with this. Which is why I am inclined to disallow it.