How much are these limits worth?

[I WHO AM HE]

Ok, more down to nuts n' bolts

 

What is the limit for a HA that inflicts no damage nor knock-back, but is counted for purpose of stunning and knockdown?

 

My current guestimate is -1 limit, but hey, what do I know?

What would it be if it inflicted full knock-back?

 

While I'm at it, what is the limit for 'not through particulate gasses or liquids' - ie not through smoke, fog, or in water or other liquids.

 

This one I've been vacillating between -1/4 and -1/2. Hmmm

 

Thanks!

[I WHO AM HE]

Re: How much are these limits worth?

 

Uh - bump?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: How much are these limits worth?

 

I don't know how to answer the first once, since a campaign can either use Knockback or Knockdown, but not both. So, we'll go with No Knockback (-1/4) for simplicity's sake. 'Only counts for Stunning' can make a HA completely useless in a lot of situations, so I'd give it a -1. So, for the whole shebang, a -1 1/4.

 

'Not through smoke or fog' is a -1/4, and not in water is a -1/4 (generally), so together, that'd make a -1/2.

[zornwil]

Re: How much are these limits worth?

 

I would go with at least -1 for stunning and knockdown or even -1 1/2 since you always have to exceed the STUN just to get to CON. Taking away the knockdown, I'd go to -1 1/2 or -2.

 

For full KB with the knockdown and stun, assuming the KB will do damage, -1/2 or -3/4.

 

For not through gasses or liquids, I agree wtih -1/2.

[I WHO AM HE]

Re: How much are these limits worth?

 

Cool! Thanks guys

[D?M]

Re: How much are these limits worth?

 

What is the limit for a HA that inflicts no damage nor knock-back, but is counted for purpose of stunning and knockdown?

 

My current guestimate is -1 limit, but hey, what do I know?

What would it be if it inflicted full knock-back?

Unusual attack, no damage nor KB but adds to chances for stunning and KB.

I would look at the HA as a drain attack, allowing the opponent to be more susceptible to stuns and KB w/o taking dmg from the attack.

 

While I'm at it, what is the limit for 'not through particulate gasses or liquids' - ie not through smoke, fog, or in water or other liquids.

 

This one I've been vacillating between -1/4 and -1/2. Hmmm

 

Thanks!

- 1/4, unless you live on Waterworld or a heavy gaseous or foggy environment.

[I WHO AM HE]

Re: How much are these limits worth?

 

I didn't go with a drain as it is only good for each strike, not cumulatively. Also, the drain wouldn't effect the target prior to the unarmed damage.

 

The 1/2 or 1/4 is a tough one, when I gm'd games I was a stickler for what circumstance limitations I'd allow. Then again:

 

Not in water, mist, smoke, particulate gase, or dust. Explosions & area effect attacks would easily create areas of dust in many cases. Its not that frequent a circumstance, but it would be stopped by darkness and could be created in almost any battlefield.

 

Hmmm

[Sean Waters]

Re: How much are these limits worth?

 

So what you have, for example, is this: STR 40 (8d6 punch) + 6d6 HA (stun gauntlet, roll damage and add, but only to determine if target stunned).

 

As has been pointed out no KB is -1/4, but if you wanted to do knockdown instead, I'd make it -0.

 

As for the 'attack to stun' thing, well, it depends. You are not doing actual damage, so you can not wear targets down. You are not doing BODY so you can not smash things up, but a STUN only limitation is -0 (I think: I haven't got the book in front of me. May be -1/4). Attack does no STUN is -3/4 under limited powers and it is more useful than that, so I'd say an attack that damaged only for stunning purposes was probably a -1/2.

 

Not enough? Think what you are getting: an attack that stuns (renders your opponent unable to defend themselves and liable to take double damage from subsequent attacks). There is no risk of harming someone who can't take the hit, and if you have increased SPEED or teammates, this can be a one-two takedown manoeuvre. Let's not make that too cheap...

[Sean Waters]

Re: How much are these limits worth?

 

The smoke/particulate matter thing: building a laser?

 

Such things don't form a big part of my game, but if I think about it for a moment, I'd imagine that after the first turn of most combats there would be enough dust and smoke to impede vision - and lasers. Probably wouldn't work through darkness fields and some other powers either, depending on the sfx. You are looking for a power that can only be used during the first full turn. I'd say -1, but you'd get a lot less, maybe nothing if the attack was in a multipower or other framework with other attacks that were not so limited.

 

Rather than have 'doesn't work in smoke' you might like to try 'reduced by range' in smoke or floating particulate matter' - lose 2 DC per -1 to hit due to range for -1/4 to -1/2, depending how much your GM uses it.

[Rapier]

Re: How much are these limits worth?

 

What is the limit for a HA that inflicts no damage nor knock-back' date=' but is counted for purpose of stunning and knockdown?[/quote']

I would disallow the only for stunning portion entirely. Stunning is a side effect and metarule. I would disallow this the same way I would disallow and RKA listed as "Only to cause Bleeding." In this case, Stunning is specifically caused by taking more STUN damage than the character has CON in a single phase. If the character takes no STUN from an attack, he cannot then be stunned by the attack.

 

If you want to increase that chances of Stunning an opponent, use a CON Drain (or Suppress etc).

 

While I would allow and attack (Knockdown or Knockback only, does no damage...probably at the -1 level), I dislike this construct. I would rather have the character purchase some TK and shove the target. I think this gives a more "real" feel to the attack.

 

As always, these are just my opinions. Feel free to completely ignore!

[Alibear]

Re: How much are these limits worth?

 

I agree with the thin-bladed fellow above.

[I WHO AM HE]

Re: How much are these limits worth?

 

This attack is supposed to represent a shock to the nervous system w/out lethal danger - but circumstance dictates that NND is not appropriate in this case. I want to be able to achieve knockdown with this attack (knock ya on your arse) but not knockback, as a sys-shock shouldn't send you 4 meters back.

 

Rapier: ah, but a CON drain occurs after rolling damage, so would never apply to the attack that includes it - but does lower CON for stunning for future attacks by me & all others. Its cumulative effect would exceed my goals, while the drain would fail to assist in the initial attack, and aid all other attacks against this target. I'd need to limit it so it was 1) non-cumulative, 2) the CON drain only against my attacks. I'd be better off with an attack that inflicts full stun with the limit that the additional damage caused by the attack heals on the following phase. Ick.

[Alibear]

Re: How much are these limits worth?

 

This attack is supposed to represent a shock to the nervous system w/out lethal danger - but circumstance dictates that NND is not appropriate in this case. I want to be able to achieve knockdown with this attack (knock ya on your arse) but not knockback, as a sys-shock shouldn't send you 4 meters back.

 

 

Why not buy a stun drain which does knockback?

[I WHO AM HE]

Re: How much are these limits worth?

 

A stun drain is for all intents and purposes a AVLD attack, an improved NND. This attack relies upon striking hard enough with an unarmed attack to do stun damage through - if the base attack fails to penetrate for stun damage, these extra dice do not kick in. If I do manage to inflict stun with the main attack, these extra dice add to it to create a stunned condition. The stun drain or NND will finish off my foe faster (doing more damage) but not generate the condition that I'm aiming for, which is stunning the target. I'm trying to create an attack that leaves you reeling from it for 1 phase, but not one that knocks you out super fast.

[Alibear]

Re: How much are these limits worth?

 

I'm trying to create an attack that leaves you reeling from it for 1 phase' date=' but not one that knocks you out super fast.[/quote']

 

A Flash v touch maybe?

[I WHO AM HE]

Re: How much are these limits worth?

 

Hmm - that would work except I'd be unable to make a person with flash defense goggles reel - unless I use enough dice or make it NND. Also, I'd have to buy radar, sonar, or assume folks w/these are resistant to syst-shock.

 

As a side note - I like the idea of a flash touch attack vs power defense!

[Alibear]

Re: How much are these limits worth?

 

...or lack of weakness...

[Alibear]

Re: How much are these limits worth?

 

Also, I'd have to buy radar, sonar, or assume folks w/these are resistant to syst-shock.

 

 

I'm not undersatnding this bit 'you who is him.'

[Alibear]

Re: How much are these limits worth?

 

Hmm - that would work except I'd be unable to make a person with flash defense goggles reel - unless I use enough dice or make it NND.

Flash defence needs to be bought for each of the five senses or did I misunderstand this bit as well?

[I WHO AM HE]

Re: How much are these limits worth?

 

Oh - the comment about the senses was that a flash hth attack would either need to be NND or AVLD unless you want targets with radar, sonar, etc being immune to your 'stunning' effect (I may be blind but I still sense you fine with 'X'). You could buy the flash against all senses, but now the Active Cost way up there. The comment about goggles was just a reference to the need for NND or AVLD to avoid a silly (goggles protecting against syst-shock) result.

 

In general - trying to duplicate the stunned effect in champions is difficult without actually just doing it. I think the easiest method is an attack +Xd6 with the limitation all damage inflicted is automatically recovered on the next phase.

[Alibear]

Re: How much are these limits worth?

 

In general - trying to duplicate the stunned effect in champions is difficult without actually just doing it. I think the easiest method is an attack +Xd6 with the limitation all damage inflicted is automatically recovered on the next phase.

 

 

Your call. I never buy powers to effect 'überrules' and I don't allow them when I GM if there is another sensible way round the problem.

[Rapier]

Re: How much are these limits worth?

 

Rapier: ah' date=' but a CON drain occurs after rolling damage, so would never apply to the attack that includes it - but does lower CON for stunning for future attacks by me & all others. Its cumulative effect would exceed my goals, while the drain would fail to assist in the initial attack, and aid all other attacks against this target. I'd need to limit it so it was 1) non-cumulative, 2) the CON drain only against my attacks. I'd be better off with an attack that inflicts full stun with the limit that the additional damage caused by the attack heals on the following phase. Ick.[/quote']Ah, but would that necessarily matter? Stunning is most clearly a cumulative effect (all attacks that have hit in a single phase are added together to determine if the character is stunned).

 

Case A:

Segment 6:

- Donnie Draino hits the Scarlet Marmot with his EB w/ Linked CON Drain.

- Scarlet Marmot is not stunned by the EB, but has his CON drained.

- Zippy Zap (the electric superspeedster) hits SM with his electro-punch.

- SM adds the STUN done by DD and ZZ and finds that the total is over his now drained CON.

- The Scarlet Marmot is Stunned.

 

NOW, this area is a bit fuzzy. Obviously, if it were an Armour Drain you would never get the effects with the attack...but with a CON drain, CON has an effect at the end of every phase (eg determine if character is Stunned). What if ZZ (above) was not there?

 

Case B:

Segment 8:

- Donnie Draino hits the Scarlet Marmot with his EB w/ Linked CON Drain.

- Scarlet Marmot is not stunned by the EB, but has his CON drained.

- SM compares the STUN done by DD to his now drained CON.

- The Scarlet Marmot is Stunned.

 

But, wait. This isn't as far fetched as it would seem. What if:

 

Case C:

Segment 10:

- Zippy Zap hits the Scarlet Marmot with his electro-multi-punch (AF5) and hits 3 times.

- SM calculates that each of the separate punches did not stun him.

- SM adds the STUN done by all of ZZ's punches and finds that the total is over his CON.

- The Scarlet Marmot is Stunned.

 

Is there REALLY any difference between Cases A, B and C? Case B is a little bit fuzzy, but I think a case could be made to let it stick. I would have no problems letting this construct into my game. ESPECIALLY, if you just wanted it to last a single turn, purchase it as a Surpress with an extra phase.

[I WHO AM HE]

Re: How much are these limits worth?

 

Background: I'm 3rd edition with a temporary copy of 4th edition borrowed to tide me over till I purchase 5th revised, so I may be completely off base.

 

1) I thought (perhaps wrongly) that you check to see if you are stunned as the damage occurs, each attack checked separately - even if linked. So a 10d6 Cold & 10d6 Impact EB linked counts dmg separately for purpose of determining if the target is stunned.

 

2) you do not re-check to see if the total dmg in a round stuns a foe.

 

3) Stat altering effects kick in after the damage is calculated

 

If these premises is wrong, I may have to re-think my goal. My understanding is the above are true, but that may not hold true for 5th...

 

#) and case 1 has a fellow being stunned by another as a result of my attack - something I specifically do not want to do. This attack is supposed to stun you, not make you prone to being stunned by other attacks.

 

[Rapier]

Re: How much are these limits worth?

 

1) I thought (perhaps wrongly) that you check to see if you are stunned as the damage occurs, each attack checked separately - even if linked. So a 10d6 Cold & 10d6 Impact EB linked counts dmg separately for purpose of determining if the target is stunned.

 

2) you do not re-check to see if the total dmg in a round stuns a foe.

Hmm. I was thinking of coordinated attacks. If not coordinated, you are correct.

 

3) Stat altering effects kick in after the damage is calculated

Defsnive Power altering affects occur after damage. The only question is whether CON is a Defensive "power."

 

If these premises is wrong, I may have to re-think my goal. My understanding is the above are true, but that may not hold true for 5th...

 

#) and case 1 has a fellow being stunned by another as a result of my attack - something I specifically do not want to do. This attack is supposed to stun you, not make you prone to being stunned by other attacks.

Eh. Actually turns out I was more incorrect. Ah well. This is what happens when you don't have your books handy. Well, I tried. Back to the drawing board.

[laxrulz777]

Re: How much are these limits worth?

 

why not a CON suppress?

 

Edit: I'd get on board with the whole limitation as you wrote it but I wouldn't allow it at more then -1/2...