[Splinter thread] I have a problem with the way it is done: Dispel Foci

[zornwil]

Re: [splinter thread] I have a problem with the way it is done: Dispel Foci

 

I like both ideas, and you know, they could be combined...

 

Essentialy if you need more you can add more...

 

You could also reduce your def to get so much of it hardened...

I like your idea and RDU Neil's. I'm still more fond of mine though and just allow a flat +(x) BOD/DEF per a +1/4 Advantage or similar (I originally stated as -1/4 to the Focus Lim, then +1/4 Advantage beyond the point it reaches -0, this could be just an Advantage though). I would tend to go with +8 as that dovetails into Gary's 9 BOD number and I suspect he has a handle on the right #s.

 

But what's important here is that there are any number of ways, and I agree, that a GM can and should when appropriate handle more sturdy Foci.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: [splinter thread] I have a problem with the way it is done: Dispel Foci

 

I don't use the rule myself' date=' but it doesn't seem too unbalancing. Since each focus is an object, there's a built in limit to how many objects you can use. You might have 16 guns, but you still only have two hands. Likewise, you can only wear one jetpack, or one pair of Hover Boots, or whatever.[/quote']

 

ABUSE 1: Multipower

 

Multipower: 60 point reserve, OIF Force Ring

u 12d6 EB

u +20 PD/+20ED Force Field, 0 END

u 24" Fight, 1/2 END

u 4d6 8 DEF entangle

u 12d6 Flash

u 8d6 AP EB

u 15 PD Force Wall, +1 Hex facing, transparent to energy

u 15 ED Force Wall, +1 Hex facing, transparent to physical

 

40 for the reserve, plus 4 per slot = 72

+15 for three doublings is one ring for each finger (none for my thumbs) = 87

 

I have 263 points to spend at my discretion.

 

I can now half move 12", remain in the air, raise my force field and fire an MPA to hit you with a 12d6 EB, 8d6 AP EB, Entangle and Flash, while keeping your teammate englobed in twin force walls from last phase.

 

Or I can stand on the ground, hit you with all four attacks as a MPA and allocate the other four rings to Force Field totaling 80 PD and ED.

 

ABUSE 2: Captain Centipede

 

Extra Limbs (62 extra arms) 5 points

Blaster Pistol 15d6 EB, 16 charges, OAF Gun 37 points

6 doublings of Blaster Gun: 30 points

Remaining for discretionary spending: 278 points

 

The look on your face when I MPA you with 64 15d6 EB's on Phase 12 - PRICELESS!

 

ABUSE 3: Force Field Ring

 

+15/+15 Force Field, 0 END, persistent, OIF Ring 40 points

Double Ring 4 times: 20 points

290 points left

Turn my rings on - +120/+120 PD/ED force field

 

ABUSE 4: Combo Surprise

Abuse 1 Multipower (but replace Force Field with a 3d6 Drain, ranged, any two stats at once and make all powers 16 charges) 72 points

Abuse 2 Extra Limbs 5 points

Abuse 3: Make that 10 PD, 10 ED, PD and ED hardened 5 Flash Def, 5 POW def and 5 Mental Defense Field, 0 END, Persistent ring for 50 points

9 doublings of MultipowerRing (512 rings, one for each thumb) 45 points

7 doublings of DefenseRing (128 rings, one for each thumb) 35 points

 

That leaves 143 points. Spend 60 to make my DEX 30. Spend 20 for a 6 SPD. A further 20 to boost my PRE. That leaves 43 points for other things (levels, maybe; could make the Multipowering 0 END instead of charges for 36, I suppose).

 

So, in Phase 12, I activate my DefenseRings (1,280 PD and ED; 640 Flash, Mental and Power defense), make a 12" half move and fire 500+ attacks as a Multiple Power Attack.

 

CAVEAT: This isn't to say anyone would allow such an abuse. However, it pretty clearly sets out why I won't give carte blanche for the doubling rule any time soon.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: [splinter thread] I have a problem with the way it is done: Dispel Foci

 

ABUSE 1: Multipower

 

As I recall, it does say quite clearly that the "multiple focuses" rule is intended for people who carry several weapons, along the lines of that dark elf's pair of scimitars, the Shadow's pair of M1911 pistols, or the Danny Trejo character in Desperado (although that could well have been charges).

 

I would file the sort of abuse you describe right next to a really strong (Hulk-like) character who goes around picking up manhole covers (because they are balanced, aerodynamic, and can inflict up to 12d6 when thrown) instead of buying Energy Blast. I don't think you can fairly fault the book when people ignore what it says.

[jackalope]

Re: [splinter thread] I have a problem with the way it is done: Dispel Foci

 

ABUSE 1: Multipower

 

Yeah, that would be abusive. But looking at the rule (FRED, 309), it heavily implies that the doublings are for back-ups, not for usuable-in-combat powers. If you want two multipower rings that are usuable at the same time, you have to buy both multipowers. Following that the extra item rule is based off the extra vehicle rule (in fact, it is the extra vehicle rule), I would say it's very fair to rule that you can't use two of the same object in much the way you can't drive two cars or be in two bases.

 

So like the rings, each is generating the same instance of FF, so you'd have 4 rings generating the same 15 PD/15 ED field. Because you are doubling the number of objects, not the power itself.

 

ABUSE 2: Captain Centipede...The look on your face when I MPA you with 64 15d6 EB's on Phase 12 - PRICELESS!

 

And rightfully so, considering how many 3's you'd have to roll to do that (assuming you use the "3 always hits" rule). Because you are at -3 OCV with the 2nd attack (off-hand), -5 OCV with the third, -7 OCV with the fourth, and -127 OCV with the final attack!

 

Also, in all of your examples, you got the doublings wrong. It goes x2, x4, x8, x16, so like in your FF Ring example, at 20 points that's 16 rings.

 

ABUSE 4: Combo Surprise

 

I love it when a well laid plan completely falls apart.

[jackalope]

Re: [splinter thread] I have a problem with the way it is done: Dispel Foci

 

As I recall' date=' it does say quite clearly that the "multiple focuses" rule is intended for people who carry several weapons, along the lines of that dark elf's pair of scimitars, the Shadow's pair of M1911 pistols,[/quote']

 

The Autofire (2 Shots) is a much better (and perfectly legal) way of doing that. The double equipment rule is great for the character who uses the "Yeah, they took the pistol out of my shoulder holster...but not the one in my shoe, or the one strapped to the inside of my thigh, or the one taped to the small of my back, or the one..." schtick, but never (or very, very rarely) uses a weapon in his off-hand.

 

or the Danny Trejo character in Desperado (although that could well have been charges).

 

I would definitely call that charges on a ranged HKA.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: [splinter thread] I have a problem with the way it is done: Dispel Foci

 

The Autofire (2 Shots) is a much better (and perfectly legal) way of doing that.

 

Well, that's the way I'd buy that sort of effect myself, personally. I have never actually used the "double focuses" thing; it's just that I don't see a problem with it, if it's used as intended.

 

Then again, if the only way I ever saw people use it was as Hugh describes (or in that vein), than I'd be prone to suggest that our group disallow it. As it happens, I don't recall having seen anyone use it in our group.

[Rapier]

Re: [splinter thread] I have a problem with the way it is done: Dispel Foci

 

Well' date=' that's the way I'd buy that sort of effect myself, personally. I have never actually used the "double focuses" thing; it's just that I don't see a problem with it, if it's used as intended.[/quote']

Yep, thats the only way I allow it. You buy the adder for a second pistol...because you know somewhere down the line its gonna get dropped off the cliff, dropped in a well, scrunched, filled with dirt or downright stolen. But it's a good thing you have another in your suitcase upstairs....

[RDU Neil]

Re: [splinter thread] I have a problem with the way it is done: Dispel Foci

 

ABUSE 1: Multipower

 

Multipower: 60 point reserve, OIF Force Ring

u 12d6 EB

u +20 PD/+20ED Force Field, 0 END

u 24" Fight, 1/2 END

u 4d6 8 DEF entangle

u 12d6 Flash

u 8d6 AP EB

u 15 PD Force Wall, +1 Hex facing, transparent to energy

u 15 ED Force Wall, +1 Hex facing, transparent to physical

 

40 for the reserve, plus 4 per slot = 72

+15 for three doublings is one ring for each finger (none for my thumbs) = 87

 

I have 263 points to spend at my discretion.

 

I can now half move 12", remain in the air, raise my force field and fire an MPA to hit you with a 12d6 EB, 8d6 AP EB, Entangle and Flash, while keeping your teammate englobed in twin force walls from last phase.

 

Or I can stand on the ground, hit you with all four attacks as a MPA and allocate the other four rings to Force Field totaling 80 PD and ED.

 

ABUSE 2: Captain Centipede

 

Extra Limbs (62 extra arms) 5 points

Blaster Pistol 15d6 EB, 16 charges, OAF Gun 37 points

6 doublings of Blaster Gun: 30 points

Remaining for discretionary spending: 278 points

 

The look on your face when I MPA you with 64 15d6 EB's on Phase 12 - PRICELESS!

 

ABUSE 3: Force Field Ring

 

+15/+15 Force Field, 0 END, persistent, OIF Ring 40 points

Double Ring 4 times: 20 points

290 points left

Turn my rings on - +120/+120 PD/ED force field

 

ABUSE 4: Combo Surprise

Abuse 1 Multipower (but replace Force Field with a 3d6 Drain, ranged, any two stats at once and make all powers 16 charges) 72 points

Abuse 2 Extra Limbs 5 points

Abuse 3: Make that 10 PD, 10 ED, PD and ED hardened 5 Flash Def, 5 POW def and 5 Mental Defense Field, 0 END, Persistent ring for 50 points

9 doublings of MultipowerRing (512 rings, one for each thumb) 45 points

7 doublings of DefenseRing (128 rings, one for each thumb) 35 points

 

That leaves 143 points. Spend 60 to make my DEX 30. Spend 20 for a 6 SPD. A further 20 to boost my PRE. That leaves 43 points for other things (levels, maybe; could make the Multipowering 0 END instead of charges for 36, I suppose).

 

So, in Phase 12, I activate my DefenseRings (1,280 PD and ED; 640 Flash, Mental and Power defense), make a 12" half move and fire 500+ attacks as a Multiple Power Attack.

 

CAVEAT: This isn't to say anyone would allow such an abuse. However, it pretty clearly sets out why I won't give carte blanche for the doubling rule any time soon.

 

HEE HEE HEE HEEEEE!! Rep to you. I was thinking along the exact same lines, but you did the work. Thanks.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: [splinter thread] I have a problem with the way it is done: Dispel Foci

 

Yeah' date=' that would be abusive. But looking at the rule (FRED, 309), it heavily implies that the doublings are for [i']back-ups[/i], not for usuable-in-combat powers. If you want two multipower rings that are usuable at the same time, you have to buy both multipowers. Following that the extra item rule is based off the extra vehicle rule (in fact, it is the extra vehicle rule), I would say it's very fair to rule that you can't use two of the same object in much the way you can't drive two cars or be in two bases.

 

So like the rings, each is generating the same instance of FF, so you'd have 4 rings generating the same 15 PD/15 ED field. Because you are doubling the number of objects, not the power itself.

 

Yet published characters purchase one sword, double it for five points, and use multiple power attacks to attack with both at once. While I agree the rule seems designed for backups, official products use it for two weapons used simultaneously. [ASIDE TO OTHER POSTERS: With this precedent for swords, why not for magic rings? This comes back to the "If I can do this with focuses, why not natural powers?]

 

But I think you hit the nail on the head with your bases/vehicles discussion. The rule works for these because it's hard to use them all at once (mind you, if I build 1 uber-vehicle, then buy some doublings to have 8 of them, why can't each of my teammates drive one?). The rule fails for foci if they can be used all at once. At the same time, the same "+5 = double" rulke also applies for summoning and duplication. The extra characters all move at the same time, so that application provides precedent for "all multiples act at the same time".

 

As for the force field rings producing one field in aggregate, that's a perfectly legit way of limiting the "doubled power" effects, and I would never allow "5 points = doubled force field", but it's not consistent with the "two swords can swing at once" characters.

 

And rightfully so' date=' considering how many 3's you'd have to roll to do that (assuming you use the "3 always hits" rule). Because you are at -3 OCV with the 2nd attack (off-hand), -5 OCV with the third, -7 OCV with the fourth, and [b']-127 OCV with the final attack![/b]

 

I could be mistaken, but I don't think those published characters suffer from the off-hand rule. I think "striking with both hands" has even been used as an example of a multiple power attack (which makes one, no penalty roll to hit for all attacks). Easy solution, however - Ambidexterity. No more off hands.

 

Also' date=' in all of your examples, you got the doublings wrong. It goes x2, x4, x8, x16, so like in your FF Ring example, at 20 points that's 16 rings.[/quote']

 

[counts...2 = 5; 4=10; 8=15; 16=20 OOPS! ] Yep, I can save 5 points, or have backup rings (my assumption is one ring per finger), or assume two rings per finger, and 240 PD and ED.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: [splinter thread] I have a problem with the way it is done: Dispel Foci

 

As I recall' date=' it does say quite clearly that the "multiple focuses" rule is intended for people who carry several weapons, along the lines of that dark elf's pair of scimitars, the Shadow's pair of M1911 pistols, or the Danny Trejo character in Desperado (although that could well have been charges).[/quote']

 

Even if one applies that restriction, change the MP so it's al attack slots and the Ring is a weapon. [GL's ring is described as "the most powerful weapon in the universe". Would you let hm have another for his other hand at a cost of 5 points? Usable simultaneously like Two Gun Kid's six shooters or Drip SoOverdone's two swords?

[jackalope]

Re: [splinter thread] I have a problem with the way it is done: Dispel Foci

 

Yet published characters purchase one sword' date=' double it for five points, and use multiple power attacks to attack with both at once.[/quote']

 

You can't do that. You can't use a MPA with two of the same attack. It would have to be two seperate attacks.

 

I could be mistaken, but I don't think those published characters suffer from the off-hand rule. I think "striking with both hands" has even been used as an example of a multiple power attack (which makes one, no penalty roll to hit for all attacks). Easy solution, however - Ambidexterity. No more off hands.

 

Even if you get rid of the off-hand penalty, you stil have the -2 cumulative penalty for every attack after the first. That means in your example, the final attack would be at -124 OCV.

[Kristopher]

Re: [splinter thread] I have a problem with the way it is done: Dispel Foci

 

I never said they couldn't ask.

 

As for the lack of Body penetration being limiting... well, since that Advantage was introduced, I have never -- and I do mean never, not even once -- seen a Power with Body penetration used as anything other than a cheap way to blow down Force Walls or break focuses. It's not an intrinsically bad idea, but a rule that is used exclusively to cheat is a bad rule.

 

Correction: I have seen Penetrating Body damage used legitimately once. A character with a needle gun had an array of NNDs linked to a 1d6 [old style, (xd6 * (y - z)] Killing Attack, Penetrating. The defense for the NNDs was not taking Body from the Killing Attack.

 

I've seen that. Heck, I've done that.

 

I've seen Penetrating used on extra-nasty anti-armor (no, that doesn't mean "meant to destroy armor foci") weapons.

 

One NPC of mine has a Penetrating BOECV Does Body 0-END RKA Damage Shield that she can't turn off, to represent how dangerous is it for a mentalist to look into her tormented mind.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: [splinter thread] I have a problem with the way it is done: Dispel Foci

 

You can't do that. You can't use a MPA with two of the same attack. It would have to be two seperate attacks.

 

Perhaps someone can refer me to the published 2 swords character. I'm going from memory of board postings here.

 

Even if you get rid of the off-hand penalty' date=' you stil have the -2 cumulative penalty for every attack after the first. That means in your example, the final attack would be at -124 OCV.[/quote']

 

I do not believe there is any such penalty for multiple power attacks. Please provide a page reference if you are aware of one.

[zornwil]

Re: [splinter thread] I have a problem with the way it is done: Dispel Foci

 

OUCH! She should add Entangle or Continuous and just be the walking mental mine field!

[jackalope]

Re: [splinter thread] I have a problem with the way it is done: Dispel Foci

 

I do not believe there is any such penalty for multiple power attacks. Please provide a page reference if you are aware of one.

 

You can't make a multiple power attack with the same power:

"A character cannot use the same Power to attack more than once per Phase with multiple-Power attack - such an attack requires two (or more) distinct Powers."

HERO Fifth Rules Edition, pg. 234

 

The Multiple-Power Attack manuver is for just that, attacks that involve multiple powers. Hitting someone with a Flash and an EB that is the same blast. Using multiple weapons is a Sweep manuver, because each weapon must be aimed and fired/swung independently.

 

The Sweep manuver is where the penalty comes from:

"Sweep requires a Full Phase and reduces the character to half DCV. He also suffers a cumulative -2 OCV penalty for each attack [after] the first."

HERO Fifth Rules Edition, pg. 262

 

Then there is the additional -3 OCV penalty for using your Off-Hand, unless you have Ambidexterity.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: [splinter thread] I have a problem with the way it is done: Dispel Foci

 

Even if one applies that restriction' date=' change the MP so it's al attack slots and the Ring is a weapon. Would you let hm have another for his other hand at a cost of 5 points? Usable simultaneously like Two Gun Kid's six shooters or Drip SoOverdone's two swords?[/quote']

 

Sure, you can do that if you want to accept the penalties for making more than one attack in around (Sweep, Move By, etc.). At that point it's just a special effect anyway, since the character can just as easily use the first weapon twice as use two separate weapons.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: [splinter thread] I have a problem with the way it is done: Dispel Foci

 

You can't make a multiple power attack with the same power:

"A character cannot use the same Power to attack more than once per Phase with multiple-Power attack - such an attack requires two (or more) distinct Powers."

HERO Fifth Rules Edition, pg. 234

 

The Multiple-Power Attack manuver is for just that, attacks that involve multiple powers. Hitting someone with a Flash and an EB that is the same blast. Using multiple weapons is a Sweep manuver, because each weapon must be aimed and fired/swung independently.

 

The Sweep manuver is where the penalty comes from:

"Sweep requires a Full Phase and reduces the character to half DCV. He also suffers a cumulative -2 OCV penalty for each attack [after] the first."

HERO Fifth Rules Edition, pg. 262

 

Then there is the additional -3 OCV penalty for using your Off-Hand, unless you have Ambidexterity.

 

Even ignoring the "same power", an 8 attack power multipower uses "8 distinct powers" to make attacks. If I have 8 rings with thatb 8 attack Multi, I can devote a separate slot to each one and fire away. Oh, and the rings give me the power to fire magic eyebeams, so there's no off hand penalties involved.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: [splinter thread] I have a problem with the way it is done: Dispel Foci

 

Yet published characters purchase one sword' date=' double it for five points, and use multiple power attacks to attack with both at once.[/quote']

 

Hero Games has a long and honored tradition of publishing character which are flat-out illegal. It is never prudent to mimic something that a published character does. If you really want a rationalization, they're NPCs, and NPCs don't have to follow the same character design rules PCs do.

[jackalope]

Re: [splinter thread] I have a problem with the way it is done: Dispel Foci

 

Even ignoring the "same power"' date=' an 8 attack power multipower uses "8 distinct powers" to make attacks. If I have 8 rings with thatb 8 attack Multi, I can devote a separate slot to each one and fire away. Oh, and the rings give me the power to fire magic eyebeams, so there's no off hand penalties involved.[/quote']

 

I think you have eight rings and one multipower. That one multipower can only be used once. I think it's also safe to consider a Power Framework a distinct Power for purposes of the Multi-Power Attack rule.

 

Though, ultimately, this isn't a problem with the rule. If a GM wants to let a player build eight identical magic rings that each give him a eight different super powers, and use them all at once in what is clealry a violation of the spirit of the rules (which seem to indicate this doubler is for back-up objects, not doubling one's power) then that seems more like a problem with the GM's judgement than the rule itself.

[Rapier]

Re: [splinter thread] I have a problem with the way it is done: Dispel Foci

 

Hero Games has a long and honored tradition of publishing character which are flat-out illegal. It is never prudent to mimic something that a published character does. If you really want a rationalization' date=' they're NPCs, and NPCs don't have to follow the same character design rules PCs do.[/quote']

I think part of that is the nature of the beast. As open ended as Hero is, it is pretty easy to accidentally throw in something illegal. I can't tell you the number of times I've been going through a character and been all "WHAT IN GOD'S NAME WAS I THINKING!?!"

 

We all make mistakes, and sometimes I think it happens on purpose. Yes, this construct is technically illegal...but it perfectly sums up the power as it is in my head and is much easier to understand than the 15 other powers I would have to link into it to get the same effect.

 

Plus with that many GMs around, I suppose its possible for them to disagree on a rule every once in a great while!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: [splinter thread] I have a problem with the way it is done: Dispel Foci

 

I think you have eight rings and one multipower. That one multipower can only be used once. I think it's also safe to consider a Power Framework a distinct Power for purposes of the Multi-Power Attack rule.

 

Though, ultimately, this isn't a problem with the rule. If a GM wants to let a player build eight identical magic rings that each give him a eight different super powers, and use them all at once in what is clealry a violation of the spirit of the rules (which seem to indicate this doubler is for back-up objects, not doubling one's power) then that seems more like a problem with the GM's judgement than the rule itself.

 

First off, the MPA rules state that, if you have enough points to allocate to more than one slot in a framework, you can use the slots in an MPA. Elemental Controls being the exception by specific rule, of course. Thus, multiple slots in a multipower can be accessed.

 

Second, after some searching, I found a post in the Rules Q forum which seems spot on and is reprinted below.

 

In CCK, the Warmachine villain Warbird has an 8d6 EB, Ex (OIF: Battlesuit, 8 charges). He also has a second explosion-blaster, identical to the first, which he purchased for 5 points.

 

I assume this means he can either fire one at a time, getting 16 individual shots before running out of ammo; or use them together in multiple-power attacks. Question 1: Is this assumption correct? (Just as a comment, this appears to be a very inexpensive, possible abusive, way to get more charges and/or create the ability to perform multiple-power attacks. On the other hand, it is consistent with many powers, such as Summon, that have effect doublings for 5 points.)

 

Question 2: Is this a normal rule?

 

Question 3: If it is a normal rule can any character purchase a second copy of a weapon like this?

 

Question 4: I know that there is a page somewhere in FREd that permits this, but was this the intended use of that rule?

 

Next, the hero Shugoshin in CU has two swords, the second of which is purchased with this 5-point rule. However, Shugoshin's ghost-cutting power - technically, the ghost-cutting power of the sword - is purchased twice, once for each sword. Which brings me to Question 5: Should the ghost-cutting power have been purchased just once, for one of the swords, and then assumed for the other sword as part of the 5-point duplication rule?

 

Finally, Question 6: Can this 5-point duplicate power / duplicate weapon rule be used for "innate" powers or is it only for those based on foci such as guns and other weapons?

 

Thanks for taking the time to answer these questions. I'm impressed that you respond to multiple questions every day and appreciate this willingness to interact with your customers.

 

John H

And the reply

The rule is on 5E 309; it only applies to equipment. As multiple pieces of equipment' date=' such weapons could be used for Two-Weapon Fighting, multiple-Power attacks, or the like. Shugoshin's character sheet is correct.[/quote']

 

Note, specifically, the fact that multiple pieces of equipment can be used for multiple-power attacks.

 

Now, I agree with you that using the doubler rules to copy a multipower enough times to have all slots active at the same time, or to create The Amazing Centipede Mandarin, with his multiple attack and defense rings on 64 hands, is an abuse of the spirit of the rules. However, your original question (IIRC, it was your question - sorry if I'm mis-recalling who posed it) was in the nature of "Show me a construct that abuses the 5 points to double equipment rules". The character I proposed uses a book-legal (based on Steve's interpretations) construct which abuses the "5 points to double the equipment" rule.

 

nb: To me, violating the spirit of the rule while maintaining the letter of the rule is a textbook definition of abusing the rule.

 

EDIT: The title of the rules question post is Use of "Duplicate/Multiple Weapons" (in case anyone wants to confirm my research).

[Gary]

Re: [splinter thread] I have a problem with the way it is done: Dispel Foci

 

I've already asked these questions about the equipment doubling rule. Go Wonder Widget!

 

http://herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18439&highlight=doubling

 

Q

If a character has a Variable Power Pool defined as a Gadget Pool with the Focus limitation, can the character purchase double the number of Gadget Pools for +5 pts?

 

If the character has multiple multipowers bought using the +5 pts doubling rule, can those multipowers be used simultaneously as different powers? For example, one multipower in an attack slot, one in a defensive slot, and one in a movement slot?

 

Can a character use the +5 pts doubling rule with Unbreakable foci?

 

 

A

1. No, that’s not a gadget or piece of equipment — it’s a collection of them. A single gadget defined as a VPP (for example, the Wonder-Widget, which can transform into many different devices) could use the rule.

 

2. The rules about equipment doubling don’t change the rules about how other game elements work. If a character has two Multipowers, is he allowed to use them both at once? Of course he is. The same thing applies regardless of whether those Multipowers are defined as “equipment†and how they’re bought — subject, as always, to the GM’s discretion.

 

3. Nothing in the rules restricts the 5-point-doubling rule to any specific type of equipment or Focus. But as always, a character should have a reasonable explanation of where he got the extra gear (Unbreakable Foci being pretty damn rare in the Heroic games where that rule most often applies), and the GM has to accept it as a valid basis for the purchase.

[jackalope]

Re: [splinter thread] I have a problem with the way it is done: Dispel Foci

 

Hmm. Well, it looks like the rules are, in fact, begging to be abused.

 

That's a really dumb way of doing it, IMO. I mean, 8 multipowers for 15 points, and you can use all of them at once without occuring any penalty?

 

That's just dumb. I could wipe the floor with Dr. Destroyer using a 350 point character and it would be a perfectly legal construction.

 

So much for maintaining game balance.

[Rapier]

Re: [splinter thread] I have a problem with the way it is done: Dispel Foci

 

Hmm. Well, it looks like the rules are, in fact, begging to be abused.

 

That's a really dumb way of doing it, IMO. I mean, 8 multipowers for 15 points, and you can use all of them at once without occuring any penalty?

 

That's just dumb. I could wipe the floor with Dr. Destroyer using a 350 point character and it would be a perfectly legal construction.

 

So much for maintaining game balance.

Well, thats never been much of a challenge. Last year during the holidays we held a lil contest. Each player had 30 minutes to build a character and the last character standing got to be crowned The Great and All Powerful StuperHero (spelling is correct btw...and there's a hat).

 

Lil Cindy Lu, wiped the floor with us. She dumped all her points into a Lightning Reflexes, Levels and a HUGE RKA. Afterwards, we realised that she had realised that the player with the first strike was going to have the advantage.

 

Her character was built on 350 pts and dished out a hellacious 40d6 RKA (or something truly obscene).

 

Being able to take out Dr D or anyone else on 350 points is cake.

 

However, I do agree with you. 5 pts for an additional MP is CA-RA-ZY!

[Gary]

Re: [splinter thread] I have a problem with the way it is done: Dispel Foci

 

Hmm. Well, it looks like the rules are, in fact, begging to be abused.

 

That's a really dumb way of doing it, IMO. I mean, 8 multipowers for 15 points, and you can use all of them at once without occuring any penalty?

 

That's just dumb. I could wipe the floor with Dr. Destroyer using a 350 point character and it would be a perfectly legal construction.

 

So much for maintaining game balance.

 

 

The rules are chock full of abusive stuff. Stuff that makes this look tame. It's up to the GM to apply common sense to maintain game balance.