alexraccoon Posted November 17, 2004 Report Share Posted November 17, 2004 Re: Did you kill Malone? And in a court of law its inadmissable the point I made earlier about seeing how he did it without letting him realise is the only way to get admissable evidence to the police. Your reading his surface thought are at best hearsay and its unlikely he'll raise his hands and say its a fair cop. As a lawyer you should know that it doesnt matter what you know its what you can prove that matters. Unless of course you are your own executioner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted November 17, 2004 Report Share Posted November 17, 2004 Re: Did you kill Malone? It seems to me that we could re-write the telepathy table to combine age of memories (last hour +0, last day +5, last week +10, last month +15 last year +20 and anything longer +30) AND how hard the target wants to avoid you finding them (trivia +0, personal details +5, embarassing personal details +10, secrets +15, guilty secrets +20, major (life and death) secrets +25, major guilty secrets +30) I like the concept, but I don't see a need for +60 for a long-held guilty secret. Maybe last hour -10, last day -5, last week +0, last month +5 last year +10, anything longer +15, buried/repressed memory +20. Similarly, I would replace the current chart with "how hard it is to find out", maybe something like Unimportant detail easily noted (eg. trivia; total psych lim) -5; Personal information (eg. address; phone number; Strong psych lim's) -0; embarassing/important personal details (known vulnerabilities and susceptibilities; Moderate psych lim's) +10; Major Secrets (eg. cheating on spouse; secret ID) +20. There's also the question of "how old is the memory". Perhaps I did something 20 years ago that I'm not very proud of (majior guilty secret). It weighs on my conscience, so hardly a day goes by that I don't think about it. Is that memory over a year old, or no more than a day old? Maybe time would be best referenced as "last thought about", and eliminate any bnuses for a timeframe under a week, so it's only penalties for items not recalled in a long time. Finally, let's add a rule for "target actively resisting", charge 2 END per phase to the target and require he make an Ego roll, and add, say, +5 to the difficulty roll, plus a further 1 for every point the ego roll succeeds by. A lot of interesting possibilities here, probably only worth the exra detail if Telepathy is a regular camp[aign feature. Hopefully the Ultimate Mentalist will cover some optional "how hard is it" rules in some detail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted November 17, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2004 Re: Did you kill Malone? And in a court of law its inadmissable the point I made earlier about seeing how he did it without letting him realise is the only way to get admissable evidence to the police. Your reading his surface thought are at best hearsay and its unlikely he'll raise his hands and say its a fair cop. As a lawyer you should know that it doesnt matter what you know its what you can prove that matters. Unless of course you are your own executioner. Actually it is an admission as it comes from the suspect, and so escapes the hearsay rule. The telepath would be considered an expert witness, just like an interpretter is. If you set it up so that a Court can accept telepathic evidence if agreed on by 3 telepaths, one appointed by hte defence, one by hte prosecution and one by the Court, evidence is no problem (Minority Report, sort of). Proving that telepathy exists and is reliable is just a matter of use and practice. ...but I know what you mean. Thing is just knowing the right answer is an enormous help, even if you can't prove it just now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexraccoon Posted November 17, 2004 Report Share Posted November 17, 2004 Re: Did you kill Malone? You never said you were in court and that only works under that system if it is accepted. I'm talking like telepathy is something new. Furthermore you were making it sound like you were trying to find out from a possible suspect. I believe that a person is not allowed to be forced to testify against themself and you would be required to provide reason for subjecting a person to a mind scan or truth detector. From your initial post under a system where the three telepaths are used then telepathy is more widespread and more common knowledge, in that universe your character who initially mindread the suspect broke the law and the persons rights to get the knowledge that he murdered malone and any and all evidence obtained from an ilegal search is usually ruled inadmissable and thrown out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted November 17, 2004 Report Share Posted November 17, 2004 Re: Did you kill Malone? Naw. We've got plenty of brain-space. We only use like 10% of the capacity or something. 4% for the non-roleplayers out there! Actually, the 10% thing is an urban myth based on a fundamental misunderstanding. The original observation was that humans are typically using 10% of their brain at a given moment, but it's not always the same 10%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted November 17, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2004 Re: Did you kill Malone? You never said you were in court and that only works under that system if it is accepted. You don't have to be in Court for an admission to be cogent evidence: most admissions, for instance, are made in police stations...read into that what you will... I'm talking like telepathy is something new. It may be, but unless there has been a recent event which has created superpowers in your world, then telepathy and all the rest will probably have been round for some time and will be integrated into the mechanisms of society. There may be a Mental Privacy Act which specifically forbids telepathic probing without consent. That could be interesting for the Mind Hero: Pulsar gets taken down for a robbery he is about to commit, gets off because the evidence was obtained in breach of the MPA, and has the hero arrested for assault... On the other hand, maybe the are no privacy laws, but all telepaths are required to register and work for the Government... Furthermore you were making it sound like you were trying to find out from a possible suspect. I believe that a person is not allowed to be forced to testify against themself and you would be required to provide reason for subjecting a person to a mind scan or truth detector. From your initial post under a system where the three telepaths are used then telepathy is more widespread and more common knowledge' date=' in that universe your character who initially mindread the suspect broke the law and the persons rights to get the knowledge that he murdered malone and any and all evidence obtained from an ilegal search is usually ruled inadmissable and thrown out.[/quote'] In this counrty at present, illegally obtained evidence is not inadmissible unless the method of obtaining it renders it unreliable. As for the so called right of silence: You do not have to say anything but if you fail to mention something that you later use at Court an inference may be drawn, and anything you do say is admissible as evidence. In practice the Court is allowed to assume that if you are not answering police questions then any explanation you subsequently give may be a lie. Apply that to telepathy: even if you can refuse to be probed, the Court can then assume that you had something to hide... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexraccoon Posted November 17, 2004 Report Share Posted November 17, 2004 Re: Did you kill Malone? The perp hasnt made an admission,hes never made an admission, all the court has is your word that he committed the crime and you've already admitted to the court that you've committed a psi crime. As were in a universe that you postulate has multiple psis then its not unheard of that you have in some ways altered his mind. This is starting to get boring stop changing the scenario to suit whatever predetermined result you've arrived at. As for asking an individual have you killed someone andthen reading their surface thoughts its hardly subtle and definatly not new. anyone whos played a psi character has done it. and there has been more than one film portraying exactly what you've described. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaxiMan Posted November 17, 2004 Report Share Posted November 17, 2004 Re: Did you kill Malone? Your reading his surface thought are at best hearsay and its unlikely he'll raise his hands and say its a fair cop. So a low powered telepath needs some skills, like interrogation, persuation, seduction, etc. With the perp's thoughts an open book, it should be very easy to make him crack under questioning. He'll likely think about the holes in his story, or worry that you've discovered some evidence he's afraid he left behind. In real life, you'd be golden. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted November 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2004 Re: Did you kill Malone? The perp hasnt made an admission' date='hes never made an admission, all the court has is your word that he committed the crime and you've already admitted to the court that you've committed a psi crime. As were in a universe that you postulate has multiple psis then its not unheard of that you have in some ways altered his mind. This is starting to get boring stop changing the scenario to suit whatever predetermined result you've arrived at.[/quote'] Wasn't aware I was changing the scenario, but if telepathy is 'something new' then it is unlikely to have been legislated against. If a criminal makes an admission to a police officer that he committed a murder, it is still admissible evidence even though the Court only have the officer's word that the admission was made. They might not believe the officer, but it is still admissible evidence. Anyway, all that is pretty irrelevant: when was the last time you ran a Court room drama? All the info you get is going to be part of the scenario, and the point I make is that it seems too easy to get a hidden thought to come to the surface under the present rules. As for asking an individual have you killed someone andthen reading their surface thoughts its hardly subtle and definatly not new. anyone whos played a psi character has done it. and there has been more than one film portraying exactly what you've described. What has subtle got to do with it? I pretend to no great thought in this over what I say above: if you can do this, telepathy is too easy to use/too powerful and we either need to think of reasons why this wouldn't work or change the rules. My suggestion is posted in this thread. What is yours? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexraccoon Posted November 18, 2004 Report Share Posted November 18, 2004 Re: Did you kill Malone? Malone is dead. Murdered. You have a 10 EGO suspect and 4d6 telepathy. Cool. Malone was murdered five years ago, so on the face of it that is EGO+20:reading memories. You are unable to dig out the information from your suspect's brain. What if you are cunning though? Well, not that cunning: just ask him, "Did you kill Malone?" That is going to make him think about it, and it then becomes a surface thought and reading it is easy, n'est pas? Well, I dunno. Seems a bit too easy to me. What do you think? First of all in your scenario he's a suspect for a crime thats 5 years old, hes not in court with your three telepaths and in a universe where telepaths are plentiful then there would be legislation regarding their use. To obtain a search warrant to search a location you need probable cause, it follows to read someones mind then you would also require a warrant and need to provide the same probable cause. no court is going to allow you to go fishing to see what you can find. an admission of guilt must be spoken aloud to count . if you say hes thinking that he killed him then you have admitted to a crime. if telepathy is not widespread then you have no three telepaths in court and your 'hunch' gets thrown out. In fact if you are not careful as you seem to know all the details of the murder you had better be able to provide an alibi as you could qualify as a suspect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted November 18, 2004 Report Share Posted November 18, 2004 Re: Did you kill Malone? First of all in your scenario he's a suspect for a crime thats 5 years old' date=' hes not in court with your three telepaths and in a universe where telepaths are plentiful then there would be legislation regarding their use. To obtain a search warrant to search a location you need probable cause, it follows to read someones mind then you would also require a warrant and need to provide the same probable cause. no court is going to allow you to go fishing to see what you can find. an admission of guilt must be spoken aloud to count . if you say hes thinking that he killed him then you have admitted to a crime. if telepathy is not widespread then you have no three telepaths in court and your 'hunch' gets thrown out. In fact if you are not careful as you seem to know all the details of the murder you had better be able to provide an alibi as you could qualify as a suspect.[/quote'] First off, while I'm no lawyer, my understanding is the need for a search warrant only extends to those with police powers. If I gather info illegally, I can be charged in that regard, but the info remains evidence. In any case, I wouldn't excpect the telepath believes just knowing tne suspect killed Malone is enough to convict. Knowing this, however, he can now narrow the focus of any investigation he or his teamates are carrying out. No point looking for evidence that would convict someone else. They won't give up on this suspect because they can't locate evidence. Nothing prevents further questions: (a) "How did you kill Malone?" ( "Where did you hide the knife?" etc. will enable evidence to be gathered much more efficiently. Finally, with regards to the existence of telepathy, you can't have it both ways. If Telepathy is common in the game world, there is likely a court-approved mechanic for assessing the telepath as an "expert witnes". If it is not common, as in our world, I doubt the defense's argument that the evidence is inadmissable because "My client's rights were violated by an unauthorized mind reader" will carry much weight. All of this also assumes the heroes are looking for a conviction in court. A "judge and jury" telepath won't care about due process. The court of public opinion works as well. Al Capone was only convicted for tax evasion, but he probably wouldn't have received the maximum possible penalties had he been an everyday businessman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted November 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2004 Re: Did you kill Malone? This is the problem with applying the real world to the game world, I suppose, and being a bit lawerly I tend to. It is perfectly valid to rule that in your world telepathy evidence is never admissible for evidence, warrants or anything. It is also perfectly fine to rule that uninvited mind reading is an offence...but then you'll be making your telepath PCs into criminals. In 'the real world' if telepaths existed (who says they don't?) Governments and Industry would ensure that they were regulated or criminalised, you can be sure of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaxiMan Posted November 18, 2004 Report Share Posted November 18, 2004 Re: Did you kill Malone? Just thinking, not criticizing... How would you ever prove someone engaged in illegal mindreading? Where are the witnesses? What's the evidence? The future needs some sort of telepathic camera. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John T Posted November 18, 2004 Report Share Posted November 18, 2004 Re: Did you kill Malone? Margaret Thatcher naked on a cold day! Margaret Thatcher naked on a cold day! Dude, if you make me sick, I'm gonna barf on your hat. John T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted November 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2004 Re: Did you kill Malone? Just thinking, not criticizing... How would you ever prove someone engaged in illegal mindreading? Where are the witnesses? What's the evidence? The future needs some sort of telepathic camera. If A assaults B but leaves no mark, and there are no witnesses, the evidence would come from the complaint and testimony of B. You'd get a Government stooge mind reader to mind read the illegal mind reader AND complainant and have a law to say that if they are not let in, they are assumed to be guilty. Don't forget the 'victim' will know who read them unless the power has fully invisible effects or +20 on the level of effect. You could also rule that any mind affecting power leaves some sort of detectable trace, possibly even a signature, to a sufficiently skilled mind cop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agemegos Posted November 18, 2004 Report Share Posted November 18, 2004 Re: Did you kill Malone? Naw. We've got plenty of brain-space. We only use like 10% of the capacity or something. 4% for the non-roleplayers out there! Myth! Snopes Infoplease ask the editors University of Washington Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted November 19, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2004 Re: Did you kill Malone? Myth! Hitth! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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