Mind Control Comments & Questions

[Just Joe]

I have been reading up on mental powers more carefully recently and mind control has particularly caught my attention. I have a lot I want to say about this subject, but in the interests of getting the conversation started, I'll restrain myself (otherwise, few would read through the end of my initial post).

 

What I want to know is what are some examples you would use to illustrate each level of effect?

 

A few notes:

 

1. For now, please restrict your replies to the "Target will perform actions he . . ." portion of the effects and ignore the "Target will believe . . ." part.

 

2. I am especially (but not exclusively) interested in effective uses of the > EGO and EGO + 10 levels of effect, because they appear to be generally achievable by polite request without the use of any power.

 

3. The example on p. 131 of FrED seems to me to be either a bad example or evidence that the EGO + 10 level of effect is poorly described in the rules. If any kind of fight or action were occurring that Mighty Man cared about, then he would mind standing still, but if no such action were occurring, then it's not clear why Mentalla would bother commanding him to freeze.

 

OK, I'm biting my virtual tongue and awaiting your responses before rambling more.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mind Control Comments & Questions

 

I have been reading up on mental powers more carefully recently and mind control has particularly caught my attention. I have a lot I want to say about this subject, but in the interests of getting the conversation started, I'll restrain myself (otherwise, few would read through the end of my initial post).

 

What I want to know is what are some examples you would use to illustrate each level of effect?

 

A few notes:

 

1. For now, please restrict your replies to the "Target will perform actions he . . ." portion of the effects and ignore the "Target will believe . . ." part.

 

2. I am especially (but not exclusively) interested in effective uses of the > EGO and EGO + 10 levels of effect, because they appear to be generally achievable by polite request without the use of any power.

 

3. The example on p. 131 of FrED seems to me to be either a bad example or evidence that the EGO + 10 level of effect is poorly described in the rules. If any kind of fight or action were occurring that Mighty Man cared about, then he would mind standing still, but if no such action were occurring, then it's not clear why Mentalla would bother commanding him to freeze.

 

OK, I'm biting my virtual tongue and awaiting your responses before rambling more.

 

It may be a poor tactical move for Mighty Man to just stand there. However, he's not averse to doing this because he is extremely Overconfident. The best way to get low requirements that have a meaningful impact is to attack psychological limitations. What's +20 or +30 for a "Physical coward" may be +10 or +0 for an Overconfident brick.

 

Switching opponents in combat (so the target is not attacking as effectively as he could be) is commonly a good choice. Can you play on internal tensions in the group? "Wolverine will kill me unless you stop him, Captain America"

[Just Joe]

Re: Mind Control Comments & Questions

 

It may be a poor tactical move for Mighty Man to just stand there. However' date=' he's not averse to doing this because he is extremely Overconfident. The best way to get low requirements that have a meaningful impact is to attack psychological limitations. What's +20 or +30 for a "Physical coward" may be +10 or +0 for an Overconfident brick.[/quote']

 

I agree that attacking psych lims is a good way to get more mileage out of a small number of dice. But are you suggesting that the > EGO and EGO + 10 levels of effect are essentially useless unless they exploit psych lims? If not, then can you give examples of their effective use?

[OddHat]

Re: Mind Control Comments & Questions

 

In combat is not the best place to use EGO and EGO+10 effects; they are much better suited to out of combat situations. They are also very effective when applied to known psych limits (Reputation is a real diasdvantage). However, without using known psych limits, and remembering that things will vary by situation and character:

 

Ego + 0 (something the character was inclined to do anyway):"My big powerful partner is the dangerous one! Attack him, not me!" "That little boy is in the middle of the battlefield! You have time, get him out of harms way!" "I surrender, please believe me!" (together with an acting roll or PRE attack).

 

Ego + 10 (would not mind doing): "Use your All Powerful Bonds of Justice! That should hold me!" "Turbo can't take another hit, go protect him!" "You don't think I'm important enough to worry about, just let me go with a firm warning." "These are not the droids you're looking for."

[sinanju]

Re: Mind Control Comments & Questions

 

The example on p. 131 of FrED seems to me to be either a bad example or evidence that the EGO + 10 level of effect is poorly described in the rules. If any kind of fight or action were occurring that Mighty Man cared about, then he would mind standing still, but if no such action were occurring, then it's not clear why Mentalla would bother commanding him to freeze.

 

Don't forget that mind control is useful in a lot of situations other than a superheroic brawl. It's actually a lot more useful when employed subtly.

 

An arrmored car guard, probably wouldn't mind flirting with that pretty young girl over there...which gives me the opportunity make off with a bag of cash, or steal the truck.

 

A door guard probably wouldn't mind taking a quick smoke break...while I slip past the unguarded door.

 

A cop who pulls me over with a dead body hidden in the trunk of my car might not mind letting me go with a warning.

 

A jewelry store employee might not mind letting me handle something very expensive...until I run out the door with it.

 

Think of the lowest level of Mind Control as being a way to _influence_ people rather than control them outright. They're doing things they might do anyhow, only they're doing when/where/how it serves YOUR interests.

 

That's how _I_ see it, anyhow.

[Just Joe]

Re: Mind Control Comments & Questions

 

OK, I'd still like to here other people's takes on the matter, but the responses so far are worth discussing further. I will continue to set aside the issue of "Target believes . . ." kinds of effects ("These are not the droids you're looking for" being a clear example of this, though other responses included an element of that kind).

 

One noteworthy feature of the responses is that they appear to assume that the command itself cannot itself be counted as a factor making it less likely that the target obeys. For example, in OddHat's example, "Use your All Powerful Bonds of Justice!", the target is not allowed to think (before the effect roll is made) that "if the mentalist wants me to use my Bonds of Justice, it must be a bad idea." (Please, please, please, no one digress onto the subject of the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of reverse psychology.) If this is the correct way to understand how the power functions, then the lower levels of effect of MC can be more effective than a (powerless) polite request because the power allows "requests" to be made which would otherwise be rejected on the grounds of their suspisciousness.

 

I like Sinanju's idea that lower levels of control affect, among other things, the timing of an action the target is likely to do anyway (e.g., a smoke break, or staying away from the possible issue of psych lims, a bathroom break). Whether or not this works depends in part on the appropriate level of description of actions. If the target is inclined to take a break in 20 minutes or after completing a minor task, will > EGO be enough to get him to take the break now? If you rule that the target counts as being inclined to take a break then > EGO is enough. But otherwise EGO + 10 or even EGO + 20 might be required (even if the target doesn't much mind taking a break before completing the task at hand, even minding a little seems to push the required threshold to EGO + 20.)

 

Finally (for now), I wonder what you think about competing inclinations. Suppose the armored car driver would like to flirt with the babe, but is too conscientious to allow himself to be distracted. You might be tempted to say that he is inclined to flirt with her (> EGO) but all things considered he might be against doing it (EGO + 20). I think the latter is the more accurate description (again, if he's conscientious), but I could see compromising to the EGO + 10 level (kind of like with psych lims, but with milder and less idiosyncratic urges and motivations).

 

Must . . . stop . . . rambling . . .

[OddHat]

Re: Mind Control Comments & Questions

 

One noteworthy feature of the responses is that they appear to assume that the command itself cannot itself be counted as a factor making it less likely that the target obeys. For example' date=' in OddHat's example, "Use your All Powerful Bonds of Justice!", the target is not allowed to think (before the effect roll is made) that "if the mentalist wants me to use my Bonds of Justice, it must be a bad idea." (Please, please, please, no one digress onto the subject of the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of reverse psychology.) If this is the correct way to understand how the power functions, then the lower levels of effect of MC can be more effective than a (powerless) polite request because the power allows "requests" to be made which would otherwise be rejected on the grounds of their suspisciousness.[/quote']

 

As GM you can rule any way you'd like; automatically bumping up by one level requests and commands made by a known mentalist (what you seem to be suggesting) effectively gives everyone in the campaign 10 free points of Mental Defense, so long as they know that they are facing a mind controller. Under the rules as written, you do not know that you are being mind controlled until after you have broken free. The effect of the implied +10 MD vs Known Mind Controllers and the official mechanic would be that mentalists would have even more reason to try to hide the fact that they were using Mind controll. That may or may not be what you want to see in your campaign.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mind Control Comments & Questions

 

Bearing in mind that you can't have a definitive list of commands at each level because they will be so situational....

 

EGO+ (target will do things that do not have an immediate and obvious negative effect for himself or allies)

 

The target WILL...

 

Use his indicators

Wash his hands after using the toilet

Refrain from the use of bad language

Phone home

Look the other way

Commit a minor criminal offence (like speeding)

 

EGO + 10 (target will do things that will have negative effects to himself or allies falling short of physical harm)

 

The target WILL...

 

Attack a designated target at range

Attack a target that is unlikely to harm him

Attack an inanimate object

Be inefficient in combat (always using the same manoeuvre, for example)

Apply his levels as directed

(Commit a criminal offence like theft)

 

EGO + 20 (target will do things that cause him or others physical harm or put them at risk of capture, falling short of anything likely to cause death or really serious harm)

 

The target WILL...

 

Attack a designated target

Reduce his DCV to 0 (each attack that hits allows another breakout roll)

Flee a combat

Commit a criminal offence like assault

 

EGO + 30 (the target will do what they are told)

 

The target WILL...

 

Do whatever they are told BUT will get a breakout roll if they are told to kill or seriously harm themselves or an ally

This includes doing something suicidal like voluntarily dropping all defences.

Commit a major criminal offence like murder

 

This about what you were after?

[Just Joe]

Re: Mind Control Comments & Questions

 

automatically bumping up by one level requests and commands made by a known mentalist (what you seem to be suggesting) effectively gives everyone in the campaign 10 free points of Mental Defense' date=' so long as they know that they are facing a mind controller.[/quote']

 

OddHat, I think you've misunderstood me in two or three different ways (I was afraid I was not being sufficiently clear . . .). First of all, I do not mean to be suggesting something I like as much as trying to get around a problem. I like your way of doing so -- I'm just trying to get make your (and others') solution explicit. Second, bumping up one level would not be the automatic result of knowing that someone is telling you to do something; the result would depend on circumstances but would often be to make the target much less willing to comply. Third, what I was talking about does not require the target to know that he's the target of mind control; it just requires him to know someone is telling him to do something.

 

 

Under the rules as written' date=' you do not know that you are being mind controlled until after you have broken free.[/quote']

 

Yes, but under the rules as written, it would seem that (unless the power is bought with the telepathic advantage) you do know that someone is telling you to do a certain thing. What your previous post seemed to assume (and this is an idea I like) is that for the purpose of determing the required effect level, the target should be treated as if he doesn't even know this.

[Just Joe]

Re: Mind Control Comments & Questions

 

EGO + 10 (target will do things that will have negative effects to himself or allies falling short of physical harm)

 

The target WILL...

 

Attack a designated target at range

Attack a target that is unlikely to harm him

Attack an inanimate object

Be inefficient in combat (always using the same manoeuvre, for example)

Apply his levels as directed

(Commit a criminal offence like theft)

 

This about what you were after?

 

This is the kind of thing I was after, though I am curious as to whether you regard your answer as an interpretation of the rules or a modification of them. Your treatment of the EGO + 10 level in particular is very different from my understanding of the standard rules.

[OddHat]

Re: Mind Control Comments & Questions

 

Yes, but under the rules as written, it would seem that (unless the power is bought with the telepathic advantage) you do know that someone is telling you to do a certain thing. What your previous post seemed to assume (and this is an idea I like) is that for the purpose of determing the required effect level, the target should be treated as if he doesn't even know this.

 

Hmm. I may be letting my house rules color my replies. For purposes of determining dificulty, and in accordance with the idea that you are not aware that you have been a victim of Mind Control until after you break free, I generally assume that even spoken commands do not register as such until after the victim has escaped. However, this is just my prefered take on it, not an official rule. Might be something worth searching the FAQ for, or asking Steve when he gets back.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mind Control Comments & Questions

 

This is the kind of thing I was after' date=' though I am curious as to whether you regard your answer as an interpretation of the rules or a modification of them. Your treatment of the EGO + 10 level in particular is very different from my understanding of the standard rules.[/quote']

 

I kind of regard it as something I just made up, but I'm not sure how far off the beam it is. Perhaps it just reflects a certain cynicism on my part or a desire to have heroes spend their disadvantage points wisely...if you can be made to rough up a normal at EGO + 10 you need a psych lim saying that your like to protect people and be a hero.

 

Technically, as I prefaced the post, everyone would have their own MC effects table, no two alike. Some people would think nothing of killing a human but would never harm a kitten. Some would happily steal from a store, but would never consider stealing from an old granny.

 

The prime consideration here, I suppose, is self interest. It doesn't assume people are basically good or bad, but takes as its scale the degree of harm to the controlled individual the action will have, in terms of harm to the body, those important to the controlled individual and harm to the individual as a member of society. Add your own shades of morality as you see fit.