Applying shapeshift in game

[Dust Raven]

Re: Applying shapeshift in game

 

Interesting points on the rest of your post, but in regards to this comment:

 

No. Making your body able to squeeze or become malleable is Stretching. Shape shift is a "real" change from one form to another.

Stretching has nothing to do with squeezing or malleability. It's the ability to reach further than one hex away. Nothing more. Anything else is SFX. The ability to change shape is Shape Shift. If you can change shape but not strech, you buy Shape Shift. You can reach way over there, but not assume anything other than an elongated arm, you buy Stretching. If you can do both, you buy both. They don't really overlap.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Applying shapeshift in game

 

I think Sight' date=' Touch, and Hearing are all default senses that have to be taken.[/quote']

In most cases, I would agree, but there may be instances where Hearing wouldn't be required.

 

I disagree, this is clearly covered by Images or Mental Illusions.

Well, that is one other way to do it. In general, if all you want to do is cover yourself with a hologram, my preferred method would be to use Images, not Shape Shift. But the way the rules are written, SS is one way to go. In general, I prefer that SS be used only for actual shape changing. If you only want to decieve senses without actually changing shape, I prefer Images. This is a major reason why I am annoyed by the way SS is written in 5th.

 

I agree there are a few different ways to go, but don't reinvent the wheel!!

I didn't. Steve Long did.

[Lord Beavis]

Re: Applying shapeshift in game

 

Originally posted by Dust Raven

Stretching has nothing to do with squeezing or malleability. It's the ability to reach further than one hex away. Nothing more. Anything else is SFX. The ability to change shape is Shape Shift. If you can change shape but not strech, you buy Shape Shift. You can reach way over there, but not assume anything other than an elongated arm, you buy Stretching. If you can do both, you buy both. They don't really overlap.

 

You are correct. I reread the rules on both. However, if you stretch any part of your body to reach 1 hex away, your shape does change. This does not constitute shape shift, though, and they don't overlap.

 

This is a good example where powers with similiar concepts have one big difference that clearly defines each.

 

I also agree if the super villain, Shifter, needs to get through a pipe to make his escape, he could "shape shift" to a snake form that allows him to crawl through the pipe. He would need sight and touch but unless someone is in range to smell, taste, or hear him, he doesn't really need these sense groups. Also, while in the "snake form", he cannot use his normal attacks, speak, or carry things.

 

I agree they should have defined shape shift alot better. I understand the intent was to give as many options as possible, but this time it back fired on them.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Applying shapeshift in game

 

Would a power that "only works on ham sandwiches" work against a character Shapeshifted into a ham sandwich?

Depends on the SFX involved

[Dust Raven]

Re: Applying shapeshift in game

 

I also agree if the super villain' date=' [b']Shifter[/b], needs to get through a pipe to make his escape, he could "shape shift" to a snake form that allows him to crawl through the pipe. He would need sight and touch but unless someone is in range to smell, taste, or hear him, he doesn't really need these sense groups. Also, while in the "snake form", he cannot use his normal attacks, speak, or carry things.

In my opinion, all Shifter would need to squeeze though the pipe is Shape Shift versus the Touch Group. For all other purposes, he still sounds, smells and looks like Shifter, but he feels like something that would fit though a pipe. I'm pretty sure the pipe would agree. Granted, moving would be slow (effectively crawling). If he wanted to slither through at full running speed, he could buy a special Movement Power, or even buy his ability to shape shift into shapes that can squeeze though small openings as Desolidification with come clever Limitations.

 

I agree they should have defined shape shift alot better. I understand the intent was to give as many options as possible, but this time it back fired on them.

I wouldn't say it backfired, but it does need some work. They've made a move in the right direction at least, even if it may have not been completely on course.

[zornwil]

Re: Applying shapeshift in game

 

In my opinion' date=' all Shifter would need to squeeze though the pipe is Shape Shift versus the Touch Group. For all other purposes, he still sounds, smells and [i']looks[/i] like Shifter, but he feels like something that would fit though a pipe. I'm pretty sure the pipe would agree. Granted, moving would be slow (effectively crawling). If he wanted to slither through at full running speed, he could buy a special Movement Power, or even buy his ability to shape shift into shapes that can squeeze though small openings as Desolidification with come clever Limitations.

 

I wouldn't say it backfired, but it does need some work. They've made a move in the right direction at least, even if it may have not been completely on course.

To your point, IMHO, Plastic Man doesn't exactly have SS vs Sight, or at if he does it's limited - it's always obviously him.

 

PS - I wouldn't inhibit his movement though. He didn't take a specific movement penalty. AFter all, he could be thinner than the pipe and grow little feet, too, on his snake form.

[Multiplex]

Re: Applying shapeshift in game

 

I think the basic problem we are having with shape shift is that so many of an object's physical properties can be detected by an overlapping group of senses. For example, the volume of an object can be determined by sight, touch, and also by sonar/radar, with some differences. Sight allows the detection of optical properties of the material the object is made of, such as color, shinyness, and opacity. Touch provides what texture the object has, but sight can also sometimes provide some information on this. Both touch and ir vision allow for temperature determination.

 

In order to resolve this issue, I can see two ways. The first is to use the FRED method, and require the character to purchase each sense group as required. This can get quite costly, for what seems to be minimal gain. The other method involves allowing a shapeshift to have some minimal effect on other sense groups. To this end, a sight group shapeshift allows the character to change the volume of space he occupies, so that he has the physical form as expected. Touch group shapeshift allows the character to change his material composition. This sense is a bit problematic, as it is probably best expressed as the sfx of other powers, such as armor and density increase. A character could change to have the feel of snake scales, which give no protection, but are 'visible' to the sight group. He would, however, still have the same physical shape.

 

Personally, I think we should go back to the older shapeshift power.

[zornwil]

Re: Applying shapeshift in game

 

(that is directed at myself)

 

Multiplex, I maintain that simply insisting on 3 Sense "Areas" (which would require some GM/user joint effort, granted) that "normally" uncover SS would suffice, and leave the point values for individual Senses to buy those back up.

 

PS - and yes, this would all be better by going back to how it was in 4th, I heartily agree.

[saffo]

Re: Applying shapeshift in game

 

Regarding the snake and the pipe... From 5th edition revised page 216

"Shape Shift (touch group) only allows a character to alter his size or mass by about +/-10%. To make greater changes in size or mass, the character should buy growth, shrinking or density increase linked to shape shift."

[nharwell]

Re: Applying shapeshift in game

 

Regarding the snake and the pipe... From 5th edition revised page 216

"Shape Shift (touch group) only allows a character to alter his size or mass by about +/-10%. To make greater changes in size or mass, the character should buy growth, shrinking or density increase linked to shape shift."

 

But that really doesn't apply here. The character could simply become a very long or large snake without changing his size or mass (a large python or boa, for example).

[Lord Beavis]

Re: Applying shapeshift in game

 

Originally posted by saffo

Regarding the snake and the pipe... From 5th edition revised page 216

"Shape Shift (touch group) only allows a character to alter his size or mass by about +/-10%. To make greater changes in size or mass, the character should buy growth, shrinking or density increase linked to shape shift."

 

 

I agree. However, I believe you have to figure out what would a snake with the equivelant mass and size look like.

 

I looked at the numbers on shape shift for 5th ed.

 

Variety of shapes: Any =20

Sight = 10

Cellular = 10

Hearing = 5

Smell/Taste = 3

Touch = 3

Instant Change = 5

Imitation = 10

 

That comes up to 64 covering alot and maybe more than every player wants to use.

 

Most games usually allow a maximum 75 active points in any one power.

[zornwil]

Re: Applying shapeshift in game

 

(snip)

Most games usually allow a maximum 75 active points in any one power.

 

I wonder how true that is?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Applying shapeshift in game

 

To your point, IMHO, Plastic Man doesn't exactly have SS vs Sight, or at if he does it's limited - it's always obviously him.

 

PS - I wouldn't inhibit his movement though. He didn't take a specific movement penalty. AFter all, he could be thinner than the pipe and grow little feet, too, on his snake form.

I always figured he also had Clinging, which would allow him to navigate in those cramped areas at full speed. In any case, if all you have is SS: Touch, then you can always tell it's him when using Sight. He might look funny, but it's Plasticman no mater how contorted his shape might be.

[zornwil]

Re: Applying shapeshift in game

 

I always figured he also had Clinging' date=' which would allow him to navigate in those cramped areas at full speed. In any case, if all you have is SS: Touch, then you can always tell it's him when using Sight. He might look funny, but it's Plasticman no mater how contorted his shape might be.[/quote']

I haven't read Plasticman other than his older comics, but in those days, as I think about it, people often wouldn't notice him. For example, he was standing under a lamp acting as its pole and the bad guys didn't realize he was there. And I remember vaguely similar instances. I'm thinking I'd go with a Limited vs. Sight upon reflection. Or just Stealth, which is probably better but slightly less fail-safe. Actually, the best way to most accurately reflect this, given how it works (Plasticman isn't "doing" or "acting" any specific way, and he doesn't blend in aside from shape, works better the less anyone looks or can see) is probably PSLs vs PER.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Applying shapeshift in game

 

I haven't read Plasticman other than his older comics' date=' but in those days, as I think about it, people often wouldn't notice him. For example, he was standing under a lamp acting as its pole and the bad guys didn't realize he was there. And I remember vaguely similar instances. I'm thinking I'd go with a Limited vs. Sight upon reflection. Or just Stealth, which is probably better but slightly less fail-safe. Actually, the best way to most accurately reflect this, given how it works (Plasticman isn't "doing" or "acting" any specific way, and he doesn't blend in aside from shape, works better the less anyone looks or can see) is probably PSLs vs PER.[/quote']

When I did a write up of Elastigirl from the Incredibles, I included Concealment as a Power with a really high roll to reflect her ability to shape her body around and behind objects to remain out of sight. Plasticman might as well have the same.

[zornwil]

Re: Applying shapeshift in game

 

When I did a write up of Elastigirl from the Incredibles' date=' I included Concealment as a Power with a really high roll to reflect her ability to shape her body around and behind objects to remain out of sight. Plasticman might as well have the same.[/quote']

That's a good idea, although I didn't think you could really apply Concealment to oneself, just those other objects (or is that what you meant?).

 

Did you post this write-up? If not, you should, I posted the Incredibles characters and I'd like to see others'.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Applying shapeshift in game

 

That's a good idea, although I didn't think you could really apply Concealment to oneself, just those other objects (or is that what you meant?).

 

Did you post this write-up? If not, you should, I posted the Incredibles characters and I'd like to see others'.

What? Can't use Concealment on oneself? Hogwash. Besides, check how animals that are good at hiding themselves our built. Concealment; Self Only (-1/2).

 

But no, I didn't post the writeup. Let me check out some of these export templates for HD and see if I can figure out how to use them. The last one I tried created too much white space and another just makes *** appear on every line.

[zornwil]

Re: Applying shapeshift in game

 

What? Can't use Concealment on oneself? Hogwash. Besides, check how animals that are good at hiding themselves our built. Concealment; Self Only (-1/2).

 

But no, I didn't post the writeup. Let me check out some of these export templates for HD and see if I can figure out how to use them. The last one I tried created too much white space and another just makes *** appear on every line.

I actually never realized it could be used that way per the rules, though I double-checked and it specifically references such, thanks.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Applying shapeshift in game

 

Is it a huge advantage to appear to have a long snake tail that isn't actually part of your body? No. Unless the guy trying to hurt you by stomping on your "tail" is really, really stupid, he'll change his tactics after the first time his foot passes right through the holographic image. Most of the time, you aim for the center of a body you want to hit.

 

...unless you are fighting a snake when you'll probably aim for the head, and Phil, if you really believe that having one or two attacks automatically miss you per combat is no great advantage, we obviously play in very different games...

 

I hear what you say about the game being a toolkit, so if you think there is another power or combination that does the 'apparent snake' thing better, you let me know. I look like a 20 foot snake, shapeshift:sight seems the very power. I'm not physically changing, just appearing to to the sight group, so the power has to be making bits of me invisible. OK we could do that with invisibility and images, but we shouldn't really be according to the meta-rules.

 

If I've just got SS:touch I can fit through that pipe, and I don't need SS:sight to do it, but I clearly have to appear to as well, so what we are suffering is a lack of definition: sight is not just perception of shape, it is also colour, texture and any number of other things, but touch also covers texture, and...well about then my head starts to spin. I think the real problem to my mind is that SS doesn't really seem to add anything that you can't do with other powers except:

 

1. Not allow PER rolls
   
2. Have this bit about fitting through holes bolted on
   

 

In trying to make it feel more like a standard build Hero power, they've made it look too much like several of them. I guess that is one use for shape shift: making it indistinguishable from the real thing, unless you look at in a way no one has thought of before.

Aside: stretching. I agree that stretching involves a shape shift, but you can't use it for fitting through small holes, you need SS touch or that old chestnut: desolidification (only to fit through small gaps). Personally I think that the ability to fit through gaps should be an adder for stretching and the ability to look like something else without allowing a PER roll should be an adder for images, and that shape shift should be taken to the woods and beaten slowly to death with a haddock. It deserves to suffer.