Please review TYR, God of Justice and War

[Powerhouse]

Tyr

Player:

Val	Char	Cost
75	STR	65
20	DEX	30
40	CON	60
20	BODY	20
13	INT	3
23	EGO	26
35	PRE	25
14	COM	2
24	PD	9
21	ED	13
5	SPD	20
23	REC	0
80	END	0
90	STUN	12
6"	RUN	0
2"	SWIM	0
15"	LEAP	0

Characteristics Cost: 285

Cost	Power	END
84	Spear: Multipower, 105-point reserve, (105 Active Points); all slots Physical Manifestation (-1/4)
8u	1) Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 3d6 (5d6+1 w/STR), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/2), Penetrating (+1/2) (101 Active Points); Physical Manifestation (-1/4)	4
7u	2) Thrown Spear: Killing Attack - Ranged 4d6, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/2) (105 Active Points); Range Based On Strength (-1/4), Physical Manifestation (-1/4)	4
7u	3) Spear that Seeks the Unjust: Killing Attack - Ranged 3d6+1, Armor Piercing (+1/2), No Range Modifier (+1/2) (100 Active Points); Range Based On Strength (-1/4), Physical Manifestation (-1/4)	10
40	Great Shield: Multipower, 60-point reserve, (60 Active Points); Limited Power Can use only one power at a time (-1/4); all slots Physical Manifestation (-1/4)
3u	1) Force Wall (12 PD/12 ED) (60 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), Self Only (-1/2), Physical Manifestation (-1/4)	6
2u	2) Missile Deflection (Any Ranged Attack), + 4 levels (28 Active Points); Physical Manifestation (-1/4)
2u	3) (Total: 20 Active Cost, 16 Real Cost) +2 with DCV (10 Active Points); Physical Manifestation (-1/4) (Real Cost: 8) plus +2 OCV with block (10 Active Points); Physical Manifestation (-1/4) (Real Cost: 8)
9	War God's Blessing: +1 with All Combat, Usable Simultaneously (up to 16 people at once; +1 1/4) (18 Active Points); Costs Endurance (-1/2), Limited Power Does not apply to self (-1/2)	2
21	Binder of Fenris: Mind Control 8d6, Area Of Effect (4" Radius; +1) (80 Active Points); Limited Power Only against wolves (-2), No Range (-1/2), Does Not Provide Mental Awareness (-1/4)	8
40	Flight 20"	4
15	Damage Resistance (15 PD/15 ED)
14	Godly Constitution: Life Support (Extended Breathing; Immunity: All terrestrial diseases and biowarfare agents; Safe in Intense Cold)
22	Healing 2 BODY, Can Heal Limbs, Resurrection, Limited Power Cannot heal back Tyr's right hand (+0), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (90 Active Points); Extra Time (Regeneration-Only) 1 Hour (-2 1/4), Self Only (-1/2), Limited Power Resurrection heals at only 2d6 Body per month (-1/4)
10	Indominitable Will: Mental Defense (15 points total)
10	Fearless: +20 PRE (20 Active Points); Limited Power Only for Defense (-1)
10	Master of Truth: Detect Lies 17- (Unusual Group), Sense

Powers Cost: 304

Cost	Skill
10	Defense Maneuver I-IV
3	Scholar
5	1) KS: Law (6 Active Points) 15-
4	2) KS: Legal Systems (5 Active Points) 14-
4	3) KS: Nordic Mythology (5 Active Points) 14-
3	Oratory 16-
3	Jack of All Trades
2	1) PS: Bardic Singing (PRE based) (3 Active Points) 16-
5	2) PS: Lawyer (INT based) (6 Active Points) 15-
2	3) PS: Warleader (PRE based) (3 Active Points) 16-
2	WF: Common Melee Weapons
3	Tactics 12-
3	Teamwork 13-
3	Tracking 12-
40	+5 with All Combat

Skills Cost: 92

Cost	Perk
9	Reputation: Powerful hero that upholds justice (World-wide) 14-, +3/+3d6
3	Well-Connected
15	15 pts of contacts
1	Fringe Benefit: License to practice law

Perks Cost: 28

Cost	Talent
20	Combat Sense (Sense) 15-
3	Lightsleep
18	Universal Translator 15- (23 Active Points); Limited Power Earthly Languages Only (-1/4)

Talents Cost: 41Total Character Cost: 750

Val	Disadvantages
10	Physical Limitation: Missing right hand (Frequently, Slightly Impairing)
5	Physical Limitation: Cannot Lie (Infrequently, Slightly Impairing)
20	Psychological Limitation: Code of Honor (Common, Total)
15	Psychological Limitation: Must see Justice done (Common, Strong)
15	Psychological Limitation: Overconfident (Very Common, Moderate)
0	Psychological Limitation: Stoic and Somber (Common, Moderate, Psych Limit point total reached)
50	50 pts of Hunted
35	Other Disadvantages

Disadvantage Points: 150

Base Points: 200

Experience Required: 400

Total Experience Available: 0

Experience Unspent: 0

[Powerhouse]

Re: Please review TYR, God of Justice and War

 

Ugh... sorry but I can't seem to get rid of the lnog spacing between spacing. I'm using Notepad to open a barebones HTML which I cut and paste. Advice to make it look better would be appreciated.

 

Thank you.

[McCoy]

Re: Please review TYR, God of Justice and War

 

Missing his RIGHT hand? Shield on his right arm, spear in his left hand? That doesn't sound correct. Let me check and get back to you.

 

I would either give more points on the "cannot lie" disad, or a seperate, psychological limitation, "always keeps his word." (This may be why his regeneration cannot grow back his hand, he offered it as hostage to Fenris, and if he grows it back he is forsworn and dishonored. If an NPC, this could be a plot point. His hand begins to grow back, and that can only mean Fenris is loose!)

[McCoy]

Re: Please review TYR, God of Justice and War

 

Missing his RIGHT hand? Shield on his right arm, spear in his left hand? That doesn't sound correct. Let me check and get back to you.

You're right, I'm wrong. It's the Marvel incarnation that is missing his left hand. Maybe I was thinking of puting the left hand on the Bible.

[Oruncrest]

Re: Please review TYR, God of Justice and War

 

Have you thought about using Damage Reduction to simulate Tyr's toughness? Lower Tyr's CON to 25, lower his PD & ED to 15 and remove his Damage Resistance, and give him ½ Physical and Energy Damage Reduction. You'll have a Tyr that respects guns (unlike the bulletproof Tyr you have now), but can hang with a brick of equal power (Tyr'll take only 19 STUN after damage reduction from a 15D6 punch compared to the 29 STUN that he'd take as he is now).

[teh bunneh]

Re: Please review TYR, God of Justice and War

 

Have you considered LS: Longevity? Though technically the Aesir weren't immortal unless they ate Idunn's golden apples, they were long-lived at the very least.

 

Bill.

[Ghost who Walks]

Re: Please review TYR, God of Justice and War

 

Couple of ideas:

~The Norse god of Justice may have a rivalry with the Roman goddess of Justice, Justina. With one of them one handed and the other blind, Justice needs serious help.

 

~A Tyr who might intervene for wrongly convicted innocents as well as punishing the guilty could be interesting.

 

~For past history/disadvantages, look at major historical events since he has arrived. On what side is Justice? He might pick up some interesting enemies this way, that most characters don't have.

 

~Reputation: Does the public know him as the God Tyr, or as some guy in a costume?

 

~Exile: Reason for being gone from Asguard...perhaps he is hunting an escaped Norse prisoner? Thor had the enchantress, Loki, and a host of others.

 

~Mystical idea: What ever happened to Tyr's hand anyway? If it didn't get swallowed, perhaps it is a mystical object of some sort...

 

~For the weapons, I would by them as OIFs. They can be taken, but he could "recall" them.

[Vanguard00]

Re: Please review TYR, God of Justice and War

 

Ugh... sorry but I can't seem to get rid of the lnog spacing between spacing. I'm using Notepad to open a barebones HTML which I cut and paste. Advice to make it look better would be appreciated.

 

Thank you.

 

Not sure what you did, but here's how I do it:

1 ) Make the character in HD.

 

2 ) Go to File, then Set Export Template

 

3 ) Choose HTML - Hero Boards

 

4 ) Hit Select

 

5 ) Go to File, then Preview Character

 

6 ) A text-pad or word-pad window will pop up filled with HTML. Highlight and Copy all of it. Close that window.

 

7) Paste the cody you just coppied into a Hero Boards message and post the character.

 

Hope it helps.

[Powerhouse]

Re: Please review TYR, God of Justice and War

 

"Have you considered LS: Longevity? Though technically the Aesir weren't immortal unless they ate Idunn's golden apples, they were long-lived at the very least. "

 

Whoa, could have SWORN I had that. Ok, it's in there. Probably clicked the wrong thing when editing the character.

 

The damage reduction idea is interesting. Hmm... if Thor considered bulletproof? I've heard of, but not seen, him taking a heavy caliber bullet to the skull at close range and be ok. Still, he tends to block more with hit hammer so he might have to think twice about getting hit by a 50 caliber unlike someone like Wonderman or the Thing. Then again, he just wades right into combat of all sorts. In the end, I'd probably give him some minimal damage resistance though.

 

Kinda like my Nova character who is about as resilent as Starfire of the Titans (10 PD/10ED with 50% Resistant Energy and Physical Damage Reduction.) She also has 5 PD/5ED damage resistant though the first body gets through.

 

Why reduce his Con to 25 though? Most bricks of his level are 30-40 and I'd make him towards the higher end to show just how TOUGH he is. He might not ignore damage like a Colossus or Wonderman but he can keep coming and coming like the Energizer bunny.

 

Some interesting plot ideas. Let me consider his background.

 

As for his weapons, how would you define Thor's hammer? OAF? OIF? Restrainable? I don't have the actual write up for Physical Manifestation, just a little brief explanation from the Hero Designer.

 

In general, some good ideas and I look foward to more!

[Oruncrest]

Re: Please review TYR, God of Justice and War

 

The damage reduction idea is interesting. Hmm... if Thor considered bulletproof? I've heard of, but not seen, him taking a heavy caliber bullet to the skull at close range and be ok. Still, he tends to block more with hit hammer so he might have to think twice about getting hit by a 50 caliber unlike someone like Wonderman or the Thing. Then again, he just wades right into combat of all sorts. In the end, I'd probably give him some minimal damage resistance though.

 

Kurt Busiek (former Avengers scribe looked thru 30 years of stories featuring Thor to see if he ever bounced a bullet off his skin and couldn't find anything. Still, some Resistant Defenses would let him use his full pd & ED against the STUN of a KA, so it wouldn't kill him (pun acknowledged) to have a little Damage Resistance.

 

 

Why reduce his Con to 25 though? Most bricks of his level are 30-40 and I'd make him towards the higher end to show just how TOUGH he is. He might not ignore damage like a Colossus or Wonderman but he can keep coming and coming like the Energizer bunny.

 

2 reasons:

1) Damage Reduction has as great an effect on CON as it does your defenses. As Tyr is currently (40 Con, 24PD), an opponent would have to do (roll) 65 STUN with his punch to con-stun Tyr, before defenses. A Tyr with 25 CON and 15 PD would require a punch of 67 STUN before he would be con-stunned (67 STUN - 15 PD = 52/2 = 26 STUN). Leaving tyr with a CON of 40 would make him virtually invulnerable to Stunning (Requires 97 STUN to con-stun him then).

2) I noticed that Tyr's total points came out to 750. A CON of 25 helps keep his Character Sheet ballanced.

 

 

As for his weapons, how would you define Thor's hammer? OAF? OIF? Restrainable?

 

I wrote Mjolnir up as OAF (with Thor's throwing it as a physical Blast) since he could be disarmed and being without the Hammer too long had such a debilitating effect on him.

 

My understanding of Physical Manifestation (I don't have Fantasy HERO either, tho I hear it's in 5er) is that it's like Vanth Dreadstar's sword or Sailor Moon's Wands. When your character doesn't need it, it doesn't exist, but it can be 'summoned' into existance instantly. From that point on until your character dismisses it (either willingly or thru unconsciousness/Stunning), it has all the properties of an Obvious Focus (I don't know it it's automatically accessible or not, tho I treat it as such).

 

The advantages are obvious: you don't have to have it on you all the time, and you don't have to worry about it being stolen when your not using it. But it has downsides too: You can't summon it if you don't have room to summon it and if you can't use your hands/arms at the time (thru either grabing or entanglement), you can't use whatever you've summoned.

[Wanderer]

Re: Please review TYR, God of Justice and War

 

The fact that Thor authors never felt in style to have him bounce bullets off means nothing. The Asgardian has survived ground-zero nuclear blasts he was unaware of with minor cuts and destroyed clothes. How more bulletproof than that?? The notion that he should "respect" bullets is simply laughable. He just feels beneath his divine dignity/warrior prowess to have the attacks of mere mortals to connect with him, so he prefers to Missile Deflect them with his hammer. Thor is indeed one character that should be asumed to have almost all kind of defense powers: Armor (resisting all kinds of attacks, up to Da Bomb), Damage Resistance (he can keep being pounded for hours), and Missile Deflect (Mjolnir), very likely Lack of Weakness and Knockback Resistance also. The current Odinpower version also a Force Field from the OdinPower Cosmic VPP.

 

On a more general note, it just feels quite wrong for cosmic-level battle-worthy superhumans (bricks, energy projectors) to have any concern for guns and knives at all. The normal goon/thug/cop/soldier should look at thier arrival with the same feel of powerlessness as the ground gaping and all the hordes of hell coming to seize them.

 

As regards Mjolnir in Hero terms... oh my. It certainly isn't an OAF, since it's almost impossible to wrest it from Thor in combat. One would need enough superhuman strength and combat skill to wrest it from Thor, one of the most strong and best warriors ever in his multiverse, and enough godlike mystic/cosmic power to overcome Odin's enchantements to return into Thor's hand and not being lifted by unworthy beings. It has happened, but so rarely that it surely isn't worth a Limitation. OIF ? It's possible, but even if Thor is rendered unconscious (a quite daunting task by itself), those persky Odin's enchantements remain active, and you can't simply pick up the hammer.

 

Maybe the best choice is Restrainable (since enemies may sometime delay the return of hammer to Thor, and he cannot use it appropriately if he hasn't room to wield it), or Physical Manifestation (the hammer fulfills some of the requirements for OIF, but not completely).

 

OTOH, for most of Thor's superheroic career (whenever that on-off fusion with a mortal is on) Mjolnir is also the sfx for OIHID (Thor is the poster child for that Limitation, along for Captain Marvel, both Shazam and Mar-vell), and Accidental Change to human (even if it could be alternatively treated as a Physical Limitation or Dependency).

 

As a long-term Thor fan, I don't know whether to or at the idea that he should be impressed by bullets, like a Daredevil or Punisher. Respectful, indeed.

[Oruncrest]

Re: Please review TYR, God of Justice and War

 

The fact that Thor authors never felt in style to have him bounce bullets off means nothing.

 

Sure it does. It means that they didn't want him walking around ignoring everything, like a certain other ubermench at the Distinguished Competition does.

 

 

The Asgardian has survived ground-zero nuclear blasts he was unaware of with minor cuts and destroyed clothes. How more bulletproof than that??

 

I, on the other hand have read Thor stories where Thor dodges and deflects energy blasts and uses his hammer to deflect bullets, and I'd wager that there are more of those scenes than ones where Thor paintbrushes off nukes.

 

And have you seen a writeup of a nuke in the Hero System? Even with my writeup, Thor would need 50/50 resistant defenses to reliably ignore a 1 MT nuke. Use Steve Long's version from the HERO System Almanac 2, and it jumps to 70/70 rdef. How am I supposed to take Mr Hyde (an old Thor foe) seriously if Thor's minimum PD is 50? How do I take Cobra (another Thor foe, not the secret criminal organization) seriously? Cobra doesn't even have superstrength.

 

 

On a more general note, it just feels quite wrong for cosmic-level battle-worthy superhumans (bricks, energy projectors) to have any concern for guns and knives at all. The normal goon/thug/cop/soldier should look at thier arrival with the same feel of powerlessness as the ground gaping and all the hordes of hell coming to seize them.

 

But they never do that in the stories. When your average goon/thug/agent sees Icon/Thor/Superman/Supreme coming after them, they always pull out their guns and open fire. It never works, but they always do. Come to think of it, Heroic agents and cops always open fire on the hordes of Hell as well. Maybe normal folk in a comic book universe aren't as quick to knuckle under as you'd like to believe...

 

 

As regards Mjolnir in Hero terms... oh my. It certainly isn't an OAF, since it's almost impossible to wrest it from Thor in combat. One would need enough superhuman strength and combat skill to wrest it from Thor, one of the most strong and best warriors ever in his multiverse, and enough godlike mystic/cosmic power to overcome Odin's enchantements to return into Thor's hand and not being lifted by unworthy beings. It has happened, but so rarely that it surely isn't worth a Limitation.

 

I've only seen it return after being ripped from his grasp once. Every other time he's had to go get it or go without (and suffer the consequences). Also Robots can pick it up without any problems as can other worthy individuals, regardless of sterngth (for instance, Captain America one picked it up with ease whereas Superman (in the JLAvengers crossover) couldn't pick it up unless the fate of two timelnes depended on it. so yes, I'd say it qualifies as a (personal) OAF.

[Powerhouse]

Re: Please review TYR, God of Justice and War

 

"1) Damage Reduction has as great an effect on CON as it does your defenses. As Tyr is currently (40 Con, 24PD), an opponent would have to do (roll) 65 STUN with his punch to con-stun Tyr, before defenses. A Tyr with 25 CON and 15 PD would require a punch of 67 STUN before he would be con-stunned (67 STUN - 15 PD = 52/2 = 26 STUN). Leaving tyr with a CON of 40 would make him virtually invulnerable to Stunning (Requires 97 STUN to con-stun him then)."

 

Hmm... interesting and I see your point.

 

I'll be honest, I see Thor and Tyr as a very high con character. If you've played the old Marvel Super Hero game, Thor has a Endurance of Unearthly (100 pts). By contrast, most bricks had at most a Monstrous (75 pts) so I tend to think of him as having a high Con.

 

Of course, using Damage reduction helps to simulate a high con in certain ways though not the benefit of a high Endurance or Recovery. For the latter part taking less damage could even out as seeming to have a High recovery.

 

2) I noticed that Tyr's total points came out to 750. A CON of 25 helps keep his Character Sheet ballanced.

 

*nods*

 

Yeah, he's up there but he is intended to be of the most powerful heroes on Earth. Still, balance is good. Then again I'd also like to see him be able to go toe to toe with Dr. D at least for a few Phases. He's been in the major Super teams of the Golden Age, Silver Age, and Bronze Age. I have decided to perhaps have him be a founding member of the Silver Knights (a Modern Age team) as well since they are the new generation of supers. In the end, he's REALLY experienced.

 

Getting back, I think Damage Reduction of some type (perhaps 25%) might work with some limited defenses. For killing attacks, it is a tricky thing. As noted, Thor doesn't *seem* to bounce bullets but instead uses his hammer to deflect them. Still he doesn't seem to fear bullets or knives (though he'd probably try to dodge or parry a sword from an opponent on his power level). That *could* represent a type of Damage Resistance with the SFX of "writer handwaving- no punk shoots the God of Thunder."

 

Of course I could keep the current defenses and not try to totally simulate the way Thor is presented in comics as taking damage.

 

Please keep sending ideas and responding. I really like this and am finding it useful.

[Powerhouse]

Re: Please review TYR, God of Justice and War

 

"My understanding of Physical Manifestation (I don't have Fantasy HERO either, tho I hear it's in 5er) is that it's like Vanth Dreadstar's sword or Sailor Moon's Wands. When your character doesn't need it, it doesn't exist, but it can be 'summoned' into existance instantly. From that point on until your character dismisses it (either willingly or thru unconsciousness/Stunning), it has all the properties of an Obvious Focus (I don't know it it's automatically accessible or not, tho I treat it as such)."

 

Hmm... that sounds about right I think though I wouldn't go for the item being dismissed if the character is stunned or knocked out. Of course it WOULD be an easy time to loot him then.

 

[Wanderer]

Re: Please review TYR, God of Justice and War

 

Sure it does. It means that they didn't want him walking around ignoring everything' date=' like a certain other ubermench at the Distinguished Competition does. [/quote']

 

Fine, That Other Guy had been already around when they started Thor, so they wished for another original cool "I laugh off bullets" signature move, hence Mjolnir Deflection. That has nothing to do with the fact that the same character, having been consistenty shown soaking/withstanding without serious damage physical blows or energy blasts that would level skyscrapers CANNOT ever be really threatened by handguns EVER.

 

I, on the other hand have read Thor stories where Thor dodges and deflects energy blasts and uses his hammer to deflect bullets, and I'd wager that there are more of those scenes than ones where Thor paintbrushes off nukes.

 

Differently from That Other Guy, Thor is a professional warrior that gives outmost consideration to his (self) image as such. Hence, he generally tries his best to show he's the better fighter by preventing/neutralizing attacks before they reach him. Nonetheless, when those blows/blasts connect, it takes stuff of comparable force to a mjolnir's throw, to make it felt.

 

And have you seen a writeup of a nuke in the Hero System? Even with my writeup, Thor would need 50/50 resistant defenses to reliably ignore a 1 MT nuke. Use Steve Long's version from the HERO System Almanac 2, and it jumps to 70/70 rdef. How am I supposed to take Mr Hyde (an old Thor foe) seriously if Thor's minimum PD is 50? How do I take Cobra (another Thor foe, not the secret criminal organization) seriously? Cobra doesn't even have superstrength.

 

I freely concede that "unharmed by nuclear blast" is at the very high end of the playable superhuman power scale, and may not always be the best threshold for gearing a cosmic-level super character, though the cosmic battleworthy big-guns in comics (like Thor, Superman, Silver Surfer, and respective clones) are at that level, and are plainly PC stuff, not NPC like the level above (Odin/Galactus). I just used the (extreme) example to show how much ridiculous is the idea that bullets might ever harm Thor, since he has survived nukes. A better general guideline for cosmic battleworthy characters may be "no one may threaten it except another super of comparable power", which is mundane terms roughly equates to (maybe) mini-nukes or fuel-air bombs. The "nothing may stop a super except another super" is an essential element of the cosmic subgenre. However, this may indeed cause some problems in setting up Defenses so that cosmic heroes may still be threatened by other supers (of comparable power: no crap like Spiderman vs. Firelord) while laughing off mundane weapons short of nukes and the Death Star. I think the by far best method, in Hero terms, if one wishes to lessen the divide a bit, may be to use the rules suggested in Galactic Champions and Ultimate Brick and DH #19:

 

All Attacks from mundane weapons and sources have Reduced Penetration vs. superhumans

 

All mundane objects have 2xBody Vulnerability (or a Susceptibility) to superpowers

 

Mundane Killing Attacks (like firearms and knives) always take the Standard Effect on the Stun Multiplier.

 

As regards the early Thor enemies, with all the infinite reverence for the King, in those very ealry stories, authors were still feeling around to establish the power level of the stories, which fluctuated wildly with no consistence. In the decades follwing, those goofy enemies like Cobra and Mr. Hyde have been all but completely cast aside, and Thor has very consistently faced enemies of a cosmic/mystic stature comparable to his one.

 

But they never do that in the stories. When your average goon/thug/agent sees Icon/Thor/Superman/Supreme coming after them, they always pull out their guns and open fire. It never works, but they always do. Come to think of it, Heroic agents and cops always open fire on the hordes of Hell as well. Maybe normal folk in a comic book universe aren't as quick to knuckle under as you'd like to believe...

 

maybe I worded my example uncorrectly. Powerlessness in the sense as nothing ordinary firearm-toting goons or cops could do might ever harm cosmic guys. They are just around for the sheer escapist empowerment scene where the Title Guy laughs off stuff that would be lethal to the reader and proceeds to swat away the upstrart extra cannon-fodder like bugs.

 

That said, as a side comment, the compulsion of average goon/thug/agent to pull gun and open fire on supers (or even more ludicrously, trying to arrest them for cops) that have been around for years and by all means are world-wide known for being invulnerable to that kind of stuff is completely pathetic/idiotic and has nothing to do with courage. It only justifies with the necessity of the author to do the vicarious empowerment "puny humans" scene to reinforce a mood. You dont' attempt to stop a volcan by shooting him and reading it its rights. If one wishes to highlight the noble, heroic courage of common humans in the face of unspeakable odds, that's fine, and it rewarding and empowering, too, but let them do something meaningful and clever, like making a Presence Attack with a foothold in the super's psychology, or throw an attacks that makes use of a weakness, or works as a well-timed distraction, so that the super opponent may launch his own attack. To take a film analogy, heroic bystanders in action movies do the above. Pulling the gun in front of the monster is the signature move of the obnoxious authority figure a moment before being eaten in horror ones.

 

 

I've only seen it return after being ripped from his grasp once. Every other time he's had to go get it or go without (and suffer the consequences). Also Robots can pick it up without any problems as can other worthy individuals, regardless of sterngth (for instance, Captain America one picked it up with ease whereas Superman (in the JLAvengers crossover) couldn't pick it up unless the fate of two timelnes depended on it. so yes, I'd say it qualifies as a (personal) OAF.

 

That depends from the details of the Odin enchantments. And yet, "worthy" individuals have been so few down the years (AFAIK, Cap, Beta Ray Bill, and Thor's own son) that's a "once in ten years" occurence. A bit too little to warrant the extra -1/4 for OAF. That Superman hasn't been able to lift the hammer can only give me a fuzzy warm feeling, since the Man of Carbonated Iron attitude is so often the walking incarnation of most I feel unsufferable and obnoxious in mainstream superherodom. I thoroughly enjoyed and savored every and each blow that one of my preferred Marvel icons landed on the Bloody Blue Boyscout

[Oruncrest]

Re: Please review TYR, God of Justice and War

 

Fine' date=' That Other Guy had been already around when they started Thor, so they wished for another original cool "I laugh off bullets" signature move, hence Mjolnir Deflection. That has nothing to do with the fact that the same character, having been consistenty shown soaking/withstanding without serious damage physical blows or energy blasts that would level skyscrapers CANNOT ever be really threatened by handguns EVER. [/quote']

 

Most of those attacks are blunt trauma (punches) or have their damage spread over a good part of Thor's body (like your typical Energy blast), and the effects that they cause can be very different from an attack that delivers a lot of kinetic energy to a very small area (your typical bullet). I see no problem with a character who once wielded a sword in battle against creatures that had a similar physiology (even though I hated the story) believing that bullets might pose a danger to his health.

 

 

Differently from That Other Guy, Thor is a professional warrior that gives outmost consideration to his (self) image as such. Hence, he generally tries his best to show he's the better fighter by preventing/neutralizing attacks before they reach him. Nonetheless, when those blows/blasts connect, it takes stuff of comparable force to a mjolnir's throw, to make it felt.

 

Ah. So he's showing off for the crowd (and putting them in danger thanks to ricocheting bullets) instead of getting the job done? I never saw it that way. Thor should hire you for Play-by Play comentary.

 

 

I freely concede that "unharmed by nuclear blast" is at the very high end of the playable superhuman power scale, and may not always be the best threshold for gearing a cosmic-level super character, though the cosmic battleworthy big-guns in comics (like Thor, Superman, Silver Surfer, and respective clones) are at that level, and are plainly PC stuff, not NPC like the level above (Odin/Galactus). I just used the (extreme) example to show how much ridiculous is the idea that bullets might ever harm Thor, since he has survived nukes.

 

One should always treat one-time powers that are never used again with the proper respect. Write them down on a piece of paper, wad 'em up into a nice 'lil ball, and chuck 'em into the circular file.

 

A better general guideline for cosmic battleworthy characters may be "no one may threaten it except another super of comparable power", which is mundane terms roughly equates to (maybe) mini-nukes or fuel-air bombs. The "nothing may stop a super except another super" is an essential element of the cosmic subgenre. However, this may indeed cause some problems in setting up Defenses so that cosmic heroes may still be threatened by other supers (of comparable power: no crap like Spiderman vs. Firelord) while laughing off mundane weapons short of nukes and the Death Star. I think the by far best method, in Hero terms, if one wishes to lessen the divide a bit, may be to use the rules suggested in Galactic Champions and Ultimate Brick and DH #19:

 

All Attacks from mundane weapons and sources have Reduced Penetration vs. superhumans

 

All mundane objects have 2xBody Vulnerability (or a Susceptibility) to superpowers

 

Mundane Killing Attacks (like firearms and knives) always take the Standard Effect on the Stun Multiplier.

 

But if you use the 'Matchstick Planet' rules, then you're gonna have to expect scenes like the heavyweight Firelord getting his tuchus kicked by the bantamweight Spider-man, as the entire purpose of the Matchstick Planet rules is to tilt the balance of Artillery vs. Supers in favor of the latter while keeping Damage Classes (and Point totals) low.

 

 

As regards the early Thor enemies, with all the infinite reverence for the King, in those very ealry stories, authors were still feeling around to establish the power level of the stories, which fluctuated wildly with no consistence. In the decades follwing, those goofy enemies like Cobra and Mr. Hyde have been all but completely cast aside, and Thor has very consistently faced enemies of a cosmic/mystic stature comparable to his one.

 

Which doesn't explain characters like the Mongoose (basically a 90's model Cobra) and Stellaris (a power-armor bruiser). They're just as lame as Cobra and Hyde but without any character whatsoever.

 

 

maybe I worded my example uncorrectly. Powerlessness in the sense as nothing ordinary firearm-toting goons or cops could do might ever harm cosmic guys. They are just around for the sheer escapist empowerment scene where the Title Guy laughs off stuff that would be lethal to the reader and proceeds to swat away the upstrart extra cannon-fodder like bugs.

 

That said, as a side comment, the compulsion of average goon/thug/agent to pull gun and open fire on supers (or even more ludicrously, trying to arrest them for cops) that have been around for years and by all means are world-wide known for being invulnerable to that kind of stuff is completely pathetic/idiotic and has nothing to do with courage. It only justifies with the necessity of the author to do the vicarious empowerment "puny humans" scene to reinforce a mood.

 

I didn't say anything about courage. In ICON, while the 'title' character was offworld and Raquel (Rocket) Erwin was on Maternity leave, Raquel's best friend, Darnice took up the mantle of Rocket. During a battle with some drug dealers, Darnice was shot at. Repeatedly. but she was wearing Rocket's Inertial Winder belt, which kept the bullets from touching her. Just as she was about to lay her hands on the gunsels, one of them pulls out a shotgun and shoots her in the face. The pellets didn't hurt, of course, but the Muzzle Flash blinded her. They might've won (or at the very least, escaped) if she hadn't made a hearing roll...

 

If you don't try, you'll never succeed.

 

 

You dont' attempt to stop a volcan by shooting him and reading it its rights.

 

No, but you sure can't stop a volcano by surrendering to the inevitable and hoping it doesn't hurt you too badly.

 

 

That depends from the details of the Odin enchantments. And yet, "worthy" individuals have been so few down the years (AFAIK, Cap, Beta Ray Bill, and Thor's own son) that's a "once in ten years" occurence. A bit too little to warrant the extra -1/4 for OAF.

 

You do realize that a focus can be accessible but not universal, don't you? IOW, Thor can be deprived of Mjolnir via disarms (or even knocking him back after he's thrown the hammer) even though nobody else can use it. And without it, Thor loses a lot of his powers - including Flight (Disarm him in midair - Thor goes splat while the hammer floats in the sky ). But what do I know - Half the villians I'd expect him to fight would have an IQ above room temperature...

[Wanderer]

Re: Please review TYR, God of Justice and War

 

Most of those attacks are blunt trauma (punches) or have their damage spread over a good part of Thor's body (like your typical Energy blast)' date=' and the effects that they cause can be very different from an attack that delivers a lot of kinetic energy to a very small area (your typical bullet). I see no problem with a character who once wielded a sword in battle against creatures that had a similar physiology (even though I hated the story) believing that bullets might pose a danger to his health. [/quote']

 

Even taking the focused/diffused kinetic energy factor, it does not stands o reason that a focused energy discharge (bullet) that would just bounce against a wall would able to harm more than a more diffused energy discharge that would break the same wall to pieces (cosmic-level punch or energy blast) would not. The Sword-thrusts you mention are generally wielded by cosmic-level bricks.

 

Ah. So he's showing off for the crowd) (and putting them in danger thanks to ricocheting bullets) instead of getting the job done? I never saw it that way. Thor should hire you for Play-by Play comentary.

 

Bullets would richochet no less if he would let them bounce against his chest (see That Other Guy) instead of using his Hammer Missile Deflection. Since he has not a SFx that would allow to melt or stop bullets in mid-air like Neo. Well, actually now he might, with the Odinpower, but I guess old habits die hard He has shown a rather incomplete mastery of the possibilities of the Odinpower.

 

 

One should always treat one-time powers that are never used again with the proper respect. Write them down on a piece of paper, wad 'em up into a nice 'lil ball, and chuck 'em into the circular file.

 

I share your healthy distrust of one-time comic-book occurencies (one of the reasons I loathe Firelord-Spiderman stuff being taken as dogma), but since he has been occasionally shown surviving nuclear blasts unscathed, and he has never been shown harmed by normal guns and knives...

 

 

But if you use the 'Matchstick Planet' rules, then you're gonna have to expect scenes like the heavyweight Firelord getting his tuchus kicked by the bantamweight Spider-man, as the entire purpose of the Matchstick Planet rules is to tilt the balance of Artillery vs. Supers in favor of the latter while keeping Damage Classes (and Point totals) low.

 

The point of the nifty and very useful "matchstick planet" rules, as you call them, is to allow giving high-powered superhumans the level of indisputed effectiveness and battlefield mastery vs. mundane technology and conventional weaponry they have in comics without pushing their stats to truly outrageous levels that require truckloads of dice. You lower the ceiling a bit for all superhumans. however, within that scale, I still like for the expected difference to be clear when street-level and cosmic-level superhumans meet. That does not mean that meaningful and interesting stories about the encounter of the two levels cannot be told: IMO, a very good Thor-Spiderman story of that kind has been told in Thor #51, when Thor brings Asgard above New York and Spiderman enters it to investigate: he manages to sneak/avoid a lot of Asgardian guards, has a poignant verbal, non-combat exchange with Thor that highlights the merits of both points of view, but when the U.S. government sends a couple ICBMs against Asgard, the Wallcrawler understands he is utterly out of his element and can only face the end... until Thor does the miracle by containing the nuclear blast with the Odinpower. No crap like "Spiderman beats Thor".

 

Which doesn't explain characters like the Mongoose (basically a 90's model Cobra) and Stellaris (a power-armor bruiser). They're just as lame as Cobra and Hyde but without any character whatsoever.

 

Which only shows that modern authors can still follow the mistakes of the classic masters, not that Cobra and Hyde weren't any less crappy.

 

I didn't say anything about courage. In ICON, while the 'title' character was offworld and Raquel (Rocket) Erwin was on Maternity leave, Raquel's best friend, Darnice took up the mantle of Rocket. During a battle with some drug dealers, Darnice was shot at. Repeatedly. but she was wearing Rocket's Inertial Winder belt, which kept the bullets from touching her. Just as she was about to lay her hands on the gunsels, one of them pulls out a shotgun and shoots her in the face. The pellets didn't hurt, of course, but the Muzzle Flash blinded her. They might've won (or at the very least, escaped) if she hadn't made a hearing roll...

 

If you don't try, you'll never succeed.

 

Trying is all that good if you do it with smarts, but keeping try strategies well-known for their inefficacy is willful stupidity and that's annoying. the case you describe is borderline cheesy, and I can barely envision it to work only because it was a utterly inexperienced superhuman, and being unknown, it was reasonable for goons to try (once). Guys like Thor, Superman, Silver Surfer, Magneto, Dr. Doom have been around for years and the magnitude and features for their abilities have been known world-wide. At that point, keeping pulling a .44 at them (and beat cops trying to arrest cosmic-level supervillains) just b/c it's SOP is plain utterly stupid (and suicidal in the case of supervillains and vigilante superheroes). Normals confronting the superhuman big-guns is interesting and rewarding to read about, if you see the normals using their smarts and trying something that might actually help the situation.

 

No, but you sure can't stop a volcano by surrendering to the inevitable and hoping it doesn't hurt you too badly.

 

Figthing the volcano is the right thing to... if you do it right, try sometyhing that may be reasonably expected to work, or otherwise, you keep yourself alive and seek for a working strategy, or call for the guys able to manage it.

 

You do realize that a focus can be accessible but not universal, don't you? IOW, Thor can be deprived of Mjolnir via disarms (or even knocking him back after he's thrown the hammer) even though nobody else can use it. And without it, Thor loses a lot of his powers - including Flight (Disarm him in midair - Thor goes splat while the hammer floats in the sky ). But what do I know - Half the villians I'd expect him to fight would have an IQ above room temperature...

 

Point taken, I had not taken into consideration that an OAF may be personal, not universal. However, it's difficult to derive a consistent rule from the way Mjolnir is written into combat (since authors keep varying it for the dramatic effect of the moment). IIRC, opponents are not generally able to wrest the hammer from Thor's hand (difficult to say if this happens more b/c of Mjolnir's enchantements, or b/c Thos is one of the strongest bricks ever in his continuity). As far as a guideline for the hammer-not-returning occurence can be defined, it happens b/c the opponent has so much mystic/cosmic power (comparable to Odin's godlike one) that he is able to temporarily suspend Odin's enchantments, or the object hitten by the hammer so "tough" that Mjolnir, after hitting, has not enough mystical "motive force" to return. Or Thor is hitten so bad that he lets drop the hammer, or fails to grasp hit when it's returning. The consistent thing is if Thor lets drop (not purposefully throwing) the hammer, or the return effect fails to work correctly the first time, the hammer fails to the ground, inert. Or you beat down Thor to unconsciousness. On these grounds, you can say that the hammer may be theoretically lost in combat. If this may occur so often that it justifies an "accessible" in hero terms, sincerely I don't know. Certainly, it's rather difficult for opponents to manage getting the hammer away from Thor in combat.

 

In any case, if Thor loses his hammer Focus, he loses his "Hammer Throw" PD EB/RKA, the "Mjolnir Energy Blast" ED EB/RKA (though these might likely be part of the VPP), Flight, FTL, EDM UAA, Missile Deflection, FW Powers and the Weather Control VPP. He still keeps his Super-Strength (and maybe a "brick tricks" VPP), Armor, Life Support, Super-Skills, and superhuman Characteristics -though they are still liable to the OIHID and Accidental Change, if he is in a phase of his career where the human alternate form is active.

 

Of course, of late he would still have the Odinpower Cosmic VPP too

 

Thor is one of the infrequent cases where it is justified to have both OAF/OIF (depending how to judge it to work) and OIHID.