shem_whistler Posted February 16, 2005 Report Share Posted February 16, 2005 Hi all, I know that the Dark Champions forum doesn't get as much traffic so I'm cross posting here. I was hoping for some feedback on this build, either from the resident gun bunnies, or from anyone else willing to offer an opinion. http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27913 Cheers Shem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dust Raven Posted February 16, 2005 Report Share Posted February 16, 2005 Re: Help with a gun build please. Looks okay. Your notation is a little confusing. You point out the Active and Real points a bit too much in my opinion (then again, I'm not checking your math). I'm not familiar with that partcular firearm, so I can't offer any feedback on how accurate your write up is. However, I can suggest one thing. You can put the Full Phase To Activate/Deactive Whisperlock on the reserve, as it technically affects both slots. When I do this, I typically use half the value of an equavilant Extra Time Limitation (in your case, I'd use -1/4). If you plan on having other slots in the MP (trick ammo or trick shooting) then you might just keep it where it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shem_whistler Posted February 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2005 Re: Help with a gun build please. Looks okay. Thanks for the feedback Your notation is a little confusing. You point out the Active and Real points a bit too much in my opinion (then again' date=' I'm not checking your math).[/quote'] I created this is HD and am still new to the system so I'm hoping the math is ok. Is there something obviously amiss? Or is it more of a formatting issue? You can put the Full Phase To Activate/Deactive Whisperlock on the reserve' date=' as it technically affects both slots. When I do this, I typically use half the value of an equavilant Extra Time Limitation (in your case, I'd use -1/4). If you plan on having other slots in the MP (trick ammo or trick shooting) then you might just keep it where it is.[/quote'] Hmm, great point, I'll change that over as it was only meant to be a piece of equipment rather than a power with associated tricks. Again, thanks for the feedback, this is probably the most complex build I have done with the system and I'm really starting to get into it. What can I say, love this system! Cheers Shem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 Re: Help with a gun build please. Hello. I know nothing about guns, but... Why is the reserve 40 points whent he highest active point total is 36? You MIGHT save a point by having the laser sight built as a seperate piece of eqipment (I have not costed it up) I would respectfully disagree with Dust Raven over applying 'time to shift slots' to the reserve, for this reason: Once the gun is in one mode you will be using it in that mode most of the time, it is not going to take extra time to activate each time, only each time you switch: the whisperlock mode seems to be the same as the normal mode but quiet, so that will probably be all you'd use. Applying the limitation about slot switching to the reserve can make a multipower cheaper than buying any one power in it, and even though there is some cannon that this is acceptable, it seems abusive to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Democracy Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 Re: Help with a gun build please. I would respectfully disagree with Dust Raven over applying 'time to shift slots' to the reserve, for this reason: Once the gun is in one mode you will be using it in that mode most of the time, it is not going to take extra time to activate each time, only each time you switch: the whisperlock mode seems to be the same as the normal mode but quiet, so that will probably be all you'd use. Applying the limitation about slot switching to the reserve can make a multipower cheaper than buying any one power in it, and even though there is some cannon that this is acceptable, it seems abusive to me. Canon/cannon. One of those times where the mis-spelling is almost appropriate! I had a look at this early on and thought it was OK - looking again I would question the value of the extra-time. Extra-time is costed when it takes extra time to use the power but, as you point out, if the mode isn't changed then there is no limitation on the power. Not sure whether it is worth +1/2 in that event. The limitation should be on the reserve as it takes extra time to activate and deactivate the whisperlock. The advantage of non whisper mode is that the pistol can then use the rapid fire combat manouevre. What the limitation should be is another question indeed. Is it worth +1/4 on the reserve as Dust Raven says? Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constantine Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 Re: Help with a gun build please. Hrrmmmm, I think the full phase to change between modes thing is worth the -1/4 advantage. There could definitely be times when you are going to want to change modes, and change modes quickly. I have a question, though, about the str minimum, strength doesn't add subtract from attack limitation. I didn't think strength normally added to RKA, so you seem to be getting a -1 limitation for having to spend two points on strength... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted February 18, 2005 Report Share Posted February 18, 2005 Re: Help with a gun build please. Canon/cannon. One of those times where the mis-spelling is almost appropriate! I wish I could claim I did it on puropse to be witty..... I had a look at this early on and thought it was OK - looking again I would question the value of the extra-time. Extra-time is costed when it takes extra time to use the power but, as you point out, if the mode isn't changed then there is no limitation on the power. Not sure whether it is worth +1/2 in that event. The limitation should be on the reserve as it takes extra time to activate and deactivate the whisperlock. The advantage of non whisper mode is that the pistol can then use the rapid fire combat manouevre. What the limitation should be is another question indeed. Is it worth +1/4 on the reserve as Dust Raven says? Doc My problem with allowing slot change limitations on the pool: Example 1 12d6 EB 60 points Example 2 60 point pool -1/4 limitation (1 full phase to change between slots) 48 points SLOT 1 ULTRA 12d6 EB (w/-1/4 limitation) 5 SLOT 2 ULTRA 4d6 RKA (w/-1/4 limitation) 5 Total cost 58 points Clearly despite the limitation the second example is just as powerful and more verstile than the first, but costs less. You could turn on the EB and leave it there forever and you'd still be as good but saving points. If there are longer periods the problem is exacerbated - a full day to change slots at -2 means the pool costs 20 points and the slots cost 2 each, and assuming you never, or rarely, bother changing slots there is no real limitation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted February 18, 2005 Report Share Posted February 18, 2005 Re: Help with a gun build please. Hrrmmmm, I think the full phase to change between modes thing is worth the -1/4 advantage. There could definitely be times when you are going to want to change modes, and change modes quickly. I have a question, though, about the str minimum, strength doesn't add subtract from attack limitation. I didn't think strength normally added to RKA, so you seem to be getting a -1 limitation for having to spend two points on strength... ...because that is how you build firearms....makes no sense, but there you go (5ER 479). Wouldn't allow it in Champions, but this is a DC build. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constantine Posted February 18, 2005 Report Share Posted February 18, 2005 Re: Help with a gun build please. Makes no sense at all, but, hey, I'll build my next Punisher type this way, and listen to the screams of my GM when I say, "Hey, this is what they told me to do in the rules!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dust Raven Posted February 18, 2005 Report Share Posted February 18, 2005 Re: Help with a gun build please. I would respectfully disagree with Dust Raven over applying 'time to shift slots' to the reserve' date=' for this reason:[/quote'] Ah, yes (I also see your example latter on). How could I have been so stupid? And to think I'm now encouraging new players to munchkin out there characters.... Shame on me. But you are right TRL, best to keep those limitations on the slots. In which case, it should be placed on each slot, but not the reserve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shem_whistler Posted February 20, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 Re: Help with a gun build please. Why is the reserve 40 points whent he highest active point total is 36? Ooops, when I was making this in HD I din't know how much it would be, so I set it at 40 and then didn't recuce it down again when I had finished. Thanks for that. You MIGHT save a point by having the laser sight built as a seperate piece of eqipment (I have not costed it up) Can you have a compound power with a simple CSL with OAF coupled with a multipower? Cheers Shem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shem_whistler Posted February 20, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 Re: Help with a gun build please. Ah, yes (I also see your example latter on). How could I have been so stupid? And to think I'm now encouraging new players to munchkin out there characters.... Shame on me. But you are right TRL, best to keep those limitations on the slots. In which case, it should be placed on each slot, but not the reserve. Thanks both of you I have seen the example and see what you're getting at. I'll leave the extra time where it is. Cheers Shem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted February 20, 2005 Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 Re: Help with a gun build please. Can you have a compound power with a simple CSL with OAF coupled with a multipower? Cheers Shem There's no problem building it that way but you might be paying extra: you pay the full cost on the reserve and, if it makes a difference in rounding on one of the slots, you pay an extra point there too. Most sights are detatchable anyway so it is not a bad idea to have the sight built seperately in case you want to remove it for any reason, or even stick it on another gun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shem_whistler Posted February 20, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 Re: Help with a gun build please. There's no problem building it that way but you might be paying extra: you pay the full cost on the reserve and, if it makes a difference in rounding on one of the slots, you pay an extra point there too. Most sights are detatchable anyway so it is not a bad idea to have the sight built seperately in case you want to remove it for any reason, or even stick it on another gun. Sorry for being slow, but would you eccept the possible extra points for the 'detachable' feature? Or does the 'detachable' effect have to be built differently? I am also not sure how you 'add' 2 powers together. Is it possible to build modular powers? For example if I created a template build for a sight and another for a silencer. Could I then just add these modules onto a gun build? I think this would be done with a compound power, but I'm not sure how well that adds together with a multipower. Any thoughts anyone? Cheers Shem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted February 20, 2005 Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 Re: Help with a gun build please. Sorry for being slow, but would you eccept the possible extra points for the 'detachable' feature? Or does the 'detachable' effect have to be built differently? I am also not sure how you 'add' 2 powers together. Is it possible to build modular powers? For example if I created a template build for a sight and another for a silencer. Could I then just add these modules onto a gun build? I think this would be done with a compound power, but I'm not sure how well that adds together with a multipower. Any thoughts anyone? Cheers Shem I'd build a laser sight as (say) 3 penalty skill levels against range. If you buy them for a single attack (a specific gun) then it will only work on that gun, but if you buy it for a tight group (rifles, for example, or 3 guns you have had adapted to accept the sight) then you can stick it on any of them AND you could definitely use the 'extra time to start' limitation as you transfer the sight over. You'd want to build the sight as an entirely seperate piece of equipment rather than an integral piece of the gun though. I think you would even if you are only using the one gun.... On the points saving let me try a simplistic example. 40 point pool (gun and sight) with the sight costing 5 points and everything having -1.5 of limitations: cost 40/2.5=16 Slot 1 ultra 16/10 =2 Slot 2 ultra 16/10 =2 Total cost 20 points Now build it as a 35 point gun multipower 35/2.5 = 14 Slot 1 ultra 14/10 =1 Slot 2 ultra 14/10 =1 AND a sight 5/2.5=2 TOTAL COST 18 points You get a 2 point saving because of the rounding on the slot costs. Won't always make a difference - depends on the relative costs, but it might! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shem_whistler Posted February 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 Re: Help with a gun build please. I'd build a laser sight as (say) 3 penalty skill levels against range. If you buy them for a single attack (a specific gun) then it will only work on that gun, but if you buy it for a tight group (rifles, for example, or 3 guns you have had adapted to accept the sight) then you can stick it on any of them AND you could definitely use the 'extra time to start' limitation as you transfer the sight over. You'd want to build the sight as an entirely seperate piece of equipment rather than an integral piece of the gun though. I think you would even if you are only using the one gun.... On the points saving let me try a simplistic example. 40 point pool (gun and sight) with the sight costing 5 points and everything having -1.5 of limitations: cost 40/2.5=16 Slot 1 ultra 16/10 =2 Slot 2 ultra 16/10 =2 Total cost 20 points Now build it as a 35 point gun multipower 35/2.5 = 14 Slot 1 ultra 14/10 =1 Slot 2 ultra 14/10 =1 AND a sight 5/2.5=2 TOTAL COST 18 points You get a 2 point saving because of the rounding on the slot costs. Won't always make a difference - depends on the relative costs, but it might! Thanks, this is a lot clearer in my head now. I will do a rebuild and then post it here for comment. Thanks to all for their comments. Shem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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