[Would-Be Hero-GM]Lethality

[GaryB]

Re: [Would-Be Hero-GM]Lethality

 

We had problems with that recently - the GM wanted to threaten the PCs with crossbows in a D&D game. As we were 8th level' date=' we could ignore less than 5 crossbows pointed at us - they had no chance of killing us. Stupid system.[/quote']

 

Yeah, it seems unrealistic there. But then again d20 people argue that a level 8 character is fairly powerful and skilled. Also the fact that WotC writers explain that HP doesn't just cover 'life force', but is also a mixture of luck.

 

Sure the crossbow only did 8 points of damage. This would have killed the average commoner or put a low level barely trained soldier down into the ground. The same crossbow hit of 8 damage on an 8th level character also represents his skill in avoiding the injury. Possibly moving just enough that it was only a nick.

 

However, thats where the detail of that system ends and HERO shines. HERO allows for adjustable levels of lethality. Just using hit locations on a Heroic level campaign is enough to take someone out of the fight in a single hit. But HERO characters have more options than, "I hit him with my sword. I rolled a 14 plus my blah blah blah". In a HERO phase a fighter has several maneuver options that can set him up more defensively or offensively. A basic strike almost seems foolish.

[Just Joe]

Re: [Would-Be Hero-GM]Lethality

 

A good way to simulate the Conan-type character' date=' wading through bodies of foes while only being scratched would be High-DCV (making all those scratches that look bad just a visual effect of missing), Combat Luck (the rationale being the armor reflects his stamina and ability to make big hits into small ones), or even damage reduction (perhaps good vs minions only).[/quote']

I agree, but I would add that if I were building Conan (or a similar character), I would give him at least 18 body, and possibly up to 25.

[cursed]

Re: [Would-Be Hero-GM]Lethality

 

Your helpful answers/comments have helped me to make my decision. I'll

buy new HERO as soon as I can resurrect my financial situation. It's not

doing very well at the moment.

 

So, the system is brutal/deadly/realistic? That's good and something I'm

looking for. I recalled that the system was deadlier than real life.

I'm happy to be proved wrong.

 

Thank you all.

 

-Cursed

[Doc Democracy]

Re: [Would-Be Hero-GM]Lethality

 

Reading through all of teh replies I noticed that no-one mentioned using normal damage instead of killing damage as an option to make the system less deadly.

 

If you make all killing attacks into normal attacks then the system immediately becomes more likely to knock you out than kill you. The 2D6+1K Battle Axe is a 7D6 normal attack - likely to do 7 BODY but your own PD defends against that - less simulationist? yes - less deadly - yes.

 

I think the beauty of the toolbox is that you can tweak your game to make it what you want it to be. You could say that half, or a third of normal PD is resistant - that would be another way to make the game less deadly - possibly better than using normal damage...

 

 

Doc

[Just Joe]

Re: [Would-Be Hero-GM]Lethality

 

So' date=' the system is brutal/deadly/realistic? That's good and something I'm looking for. I recalled that the system was deadlier than real life. I'm happy to be proved wrong.[/quote']

I would say rather that is flexible enough that it can be these things, depending on GM decisions about optional rules and other things.

[Just Joe]

Re: [Would-Be Hero-GM]Lethality

 

Reading through all of teh replies I noticed that no-one mentioned using normal damage instead of killing damage as an option to make the system less deadly.

I suppose that's a possibility, but it's an awfully radical move. It's bad enough that (on the standard rules) an 8 PD human can easily survive a dozen blows from a gorilla with a baseball bat. Using this suggestion, one could survive a dozen hits from a two-handed sword.

[paigeoliver]

Re: [Would-Be Hero-GM]Lethality

 

I always thought hero was a lot less lethal on beginning characters of the fantasy variety than D&D was.

 

In Rules Cyclopedia D&D (which is the variety I play) assuming a +1 con bonus (which is about average, as most people tend to put their second highest roll into CON), and being slightly nice on the hit point roll (assuming the DM is allowing you to reroll a 1) then first level characters have this many hit points on average.

 

Fighter, Dwarf 6

Cleric, Elf, Halfling 5

Mage, Thief 4

 

Swords do 1-8 damage, killing most beginning thiefs and mages with the first hit, having a 50 percent chance on the clerics, elves and halflings, and having a 37 percent chance of killing the fighters and dwarves.

 

And D&D armor doesn't subtract damage either.

[badger3k]

Re: [Would-Be Hero-GM]Lethality

 

I always thought hero was a lot less lethal on beginning characters of the fantasy variety than D&D was.

 

In Rules Cyclopedia D&D (which is the variety I play) assuming a +1 con bonus (which is about average, as most people tend to put their second highest roll into CON), and being slightly nice on the hit point roll (assuming the DM is allowing you to reroll a 1) then first level characters have this many hit points on average.

 

Fighter, Dwarf 6

Cleric, Elf, Halfling 5

Mage, Thief 3

 

Swords do 1-8 damage, killing most beginning thiefs and mages with the first hit, having a 50 percent chance on the clerics, elves and halflings, and having a 37 percent chance of killing the fighters and dwarves.

 

And D&D armor doesn't subtract damage either.

 

But only at low levels. Once you start going up, the comparison reverses itself (despite some of the uber-damage builds people work up).

[Doc Democracy]

Re: [Would-Be Hero-GM]Lethality

 

I suppose that's a possibility' date=' but it's an awfully radical move. It's bad enough that (on the standard rules) an 8 PD human can easily survive a dozen blows from a gorilla with a baseball bat. Using this suggestion, one could survive a dozen hits from a two-handed sword.[/quote']

 

Yeah - its radical but if you are looking for a game where death is a remote possibility then it is an easy way to put it into the game.

 

By doing that you can use killing damage as a shocker in special combats or for special weapons. Makes some weapons 'deadly'.

 

Anyway - that human might survive a dozen blows but he's not going to have noticed many of the last six or seven....

[The Hyborian]

Re: [Would-Be Hero-GM]Lethality

 

I suppose that's a possibility' date=' but it's an awfully radical move. It's bad enough that (on the standard rules) an 8 PD human can easily survive a dozen blows from a gorilla with a baseball bat. Using this suggestion, one could survive a dozen hits from a two-handed sword.[/quote']

 

 

In nearly 20 years of gaming Im pretty sure I have never seen a gorilla attack someone with a baseball bat. Not that I disagree with your assessment of the rules, they are spot on, but the image just made me giggle.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: [Would-Be Hero-GM]Lethality

 

I suppose that's a possibility' date=' but it's an awfully radical move. It's bad enough that (on the standard rules) an 8 PD human can easily survive a dozen blows from a gorilla with a baseball bat. Using this suggestion, one could survive a dozen hits from a two-handed sword.[/quote']

 

Well... it can take twice that to decapitate someone. And mr 8 PD is one of the toughest men alive, with a rib cage like steel, etc.

[Greenstar]

Re: [Would-Be Hero-GM]Lethality

 

Here's how I handle infection in my games (FH, based on 100+50, all optional combat rules, so things are kind of nasty)

 

Anytime a character takes a wound in combat, they must make a CON roll to avoid sepsis. Modifiers to the roll are:

 

Wound does more than 3 BODY: -1

Wound does more than 6 BODY: -2 (not cumulative with above)

Wound does more than 10 BODY: -3 (not cumulative with above)

Wound is not properly bound: -1

Wound is a puncture: -1

Wound is a puncture to a body area covered in pliable clothing: -2 (not cumulative with above)

Wound is to the torso: -1

Fire damage: -2

Particularly unsanitary conditions: -1

 

In general, you do not get any bonuses for having someone with Paramedics skill help you out, you just avoid penalties. That's because the concept of "sanitary wound conditions" is extremely recent.

 

The penalty is larger for punctures as they drive deeper and may actually carry in bits of clothing which is almost certainly dirty and loaded with bacteria.

 

Fire damage is particularly nasty as well, as it so compromises the skin and the natural barriers to infection.

 

Sepsis, once it sets in, progresses as follows (all have recovery times of 1 week):

 

Day 1: Drain 1D6 END & STUN

Day 2: Drain 2D6 END & STUN, Drain 1D6 STR

Day 3: Drain 3D6 END, Drain 1D6 each STR, DEX, BODY, & STUN

Day 4+: Drain 4D6 END, Drain 2D6 each STR, DEX, BODY, & STUN

 

This goes on until the victim dies, is (magically)healed, or has drastic measures applied. Anytime before day 3 an attempt may be made to debride and cauterize the wound. This requires a PS:Churigeon or a Paramedics check, the latter at -4. If it succeeds, the character will take 1/2D6K to the afflicted area, and will scale back down the chart until the infection is gone, then heal normally. If the roll fails, you take 1/2D6K and still have the infection.

 

If you the wound is to a limb amputation & cauterization may be attempted anytime before Day 5. This is checked as per above, but the damage done is sufficient to totally disable the limb in question, and the limb is removed, but the infection is halted. A failure on the roll means the limb is removed and the infection halted, but that the patient takes an additional 2D6K damage, which may well kill the poor soul.

[GamePhil]

Re: [Would-Be Hero-GM]Lethality

 

Pah. Three pages. Thought the first page was everything.

 

If you want the game to be, at the same time, more "gritty" and less lethal, it's an unusual combination but doable. I'd increase "normal human" Body somewhat, probably even over the 10 that normal heroes start with. Off hand, I'd say around 12, leaving them able to survive even maximum damage 3d6 Killing Attacks with a few Body points to spare. They'd need medical attention within a bit over a minute to survive, though.

 

Don't use any of the Optional Damage rules, except maybe Bleeding Damage (in addition to losing Body when at a negative score).

 

There are a variety of environmental effects in HERO 5th, including temperature extremes and overexposure to sunlight, but I don't recall anyplace they currently have detailed rules for real or magical diseases, save when one creature or another has the ability to cause them. I could be wrong, though. I expect Ultimate Skill will address this, since it will presumably address Paramedic (but I could be wrong about that, too, and it isn't out until '06).