Weapon Definition

[Heroman]

I was curious about an aspect of weapon definition that I saw in the FH book and wondering if some insight could be shed.

 

For more accurate weapons, it seems that OCV levels are built "as 5-point Combat Skill Levels with the OAF, Required Hands, and Real Weapon Limitations" [FH p165]

For a weapon with a a single attack, this means a +1 costs 2 CP, +2 is 4cp, +3 for 5cp, assuming you are using the 2H for Required Hands (1H weapons would be 2, 4 7 respectively).

 

The first issue would obvoiusly be the cost of the bonus. For a single attack weapon, it is a noticable increase from +1 for 1 (CSL: with any single attack with one specific weapon), +2 for 2, +3 for 3. Since it is defined as a CSL just for that attack from that weapon, it really does not seem to need limitations anyways. OAF is redundant since it is for that weapon, Required Hands the same, since the weapon needs hands to be used, Real Weapon the same.

 

Secondly, the limitations do not seem really as restrictive as they can be. To start, as a 5 point CSL HTH, you could technically carry 2 rapiers and then have a +2 to your OCV. Nothing about the 5 point limits it to just the attack with the weapon (not even the OAF, really). Secondly, at that level you could use the 5 point for a +1 DCV while using the weapon. While this is a cool side effect, it is not really called out in the weapon listing as a possibility so I must wonder if that was taken into account. That kind of versitility does not stand out, IMHO, to an inexperienced player and if it were indeed an intended side effect I would think it would be.

 

It seems that the weapon OCV should have an additional limitation (Lim: Only for weapon's attacks) -1 1/4 (-3 if you intend weapons to go to +3) to equalize the cost with the intended cost of a single weapon OCV leveling, or just use single attack OCV levels and ignore adding limitation, as they are redundant.

[Tech]

Re: Weapon Definition

 

I don't know if this is on the topic or not but since you brought up the point about OCV bonuses on weapons..

 

It occured to me that if someone were to pick up an exceptionally balanced, well-built rapier that adds +1 OCV due to the fine worksmanship, picking up another of the same well-built rapiers would not give you a total of +2 OCV. It would stand that each weapon built helps the wielder strike the intended target but would not be necessarily cumulative; it's just that each weapon is well-built and using either rapier would give you a +1 to hit.

 

Any thoughts on this?

[Heroman]

Re: Weapon Definition

 

Actually, as they are built (or at least described in the FH book), they actually would give a cumulative bonus. The bonus is not built as a 'single weapon attack' CSL.

 

I guess the issue is that the +1 OCV is build as a CSL: H-H. Techincally, given the currently described limitations in the FH book, that means as long as you have it in your hand (Required Hands lim), you get a +1 with all H-H combat.

 

Heck, you could technically hold it in your offhand (I assume Rapier is built with Required Hands: 1H otherwise you could not use a shield) and punch with a +1 OCV (thae rapier really helps balance you!). Holding 2 rapiers gives a +2 OCV overall (since both are just foci giving +1 HTH each). There is nothing in the limitations which force the +1 to only that weapon. If that is the intent, it is a noticable limitation from the +1 to all HTH and should be worth a limitation.

 

At the 5 point level, you could also hold it and get a +1 DCV (I believe 5 pt is the first amount where you can use CSLs for DCV) instead of the +1 OCV.....

[sbarron]

Re: Weapon Definition

 

Maybe the "real weapon" limit covers this? It makes no sense that the OCV be cumulative given these are "real weapons" and real weapons don't provide levels this way. Also, just holding a weapon in one hand doesn't make a weapon in the other more accurate (at least not "real" weapons). As a result, the levels don't work that way.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Weapon Definition

 

It seems to come down to a design assumption regarding game balance. By the rules a 5-point CSL is the smallest one that you can take Limitations for, regardless of what it's defined as applying to, which I assume is to keep Limited CSLs from becoming the munchkin's secret weapon. In the case of the bonus to OCV for a weapon, it's defined as applying to OCV only regardless of what it could theoretically be applied to. The bonuses wouldn't be cumulative because, as you rightly point out, it doesn't match the Special Effects of the weapon that they would be cumulative.

 

While I can understand and sympathize with your desire to build the weapon "right," for purposes of the Real Point cost of a weapon IMHO there's no harm in assuming that the Limitations to the default build that you consider inappropriate, actually cover the cost of the Limitations you do think would be appropriate which aren't included now.

[Heroman]

Re: Weapon Definition

 

Yup, def understand the 5 point being the min for applying lims to and no prob with that. It just seemed unusual to use a 5 point where a 1 point would do.

 

The 1 point would effectively do everythig the 5 point would, but be a little more straight forward and cheaper. I was curious if there were any other reasons why one would build it at the 5 point level, given the smattering of limitations and capabilities (given the sfx) make it no different in affect than the single attack CSL...

[sbarron]

Re: Weapon Definition

 

The 1 point would effectively do everythig the 5 point would' date=' but be a little more straight forward and cheaper. I was curious if there were any other reasons why one would build it at the 5 point level, given the smattering of limitations and capabilities (given the sfx) make it no different in affect than the single attack CSL...[/quote']I think you are mis-interpreting what the one point level does. You can only use it with one "attack" with any single weapon. And I'm pretty sure it can only be OCV or DCV, you'd have to choose when you buy it. So maybe you buy the one point level as +1 OCV with "martial strike" as the one attack for a weapon you're designing. Which means when you use that weapon, you would only get the +1 OCV when you use "martial strike," and wouldn't be able to use it for blocking, normal strikes, or any other of the host of maneuvers availible.

 

The 5 point level lets you use the level for OCV or DCV, you choose at the beginning of your phase, and the level can be used regardless of the type of maneuver you do. That's a pretty substantial difference.

[Old Man]

Re: Weapon Definition

 

Let me suggest that the point- and limitation- based system for weapon creation really doesn't work very well, and there's really no reason to stick to it, unless you're charging characters points for what they hold in their hands. I've found that it's much better to play the game with the stock weapon chart for a bit and then tweak from experience. Instead of getting bogged down in the minutiae of defining weapons as powers.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Weapon Definition

 

Actually, I see no problem with the cumulative +1 OCV. Or the +1 DCV in HtoH.

 

Why?

 

Because it IS useful to have them. If you're trying to not get stabbed, pointy weapons are good for keeping at bay. If you're trying to punch someone, makign them worry about the sword in your other hand is a good distraction.

 

If you have two weapons and are attacking with both, you have CV penalties anyway, the double rapier just makes it a little more accurate.

[Heroman]

Re: Weapon Definition

 

Actually, the CMs used thru weapons is the thing I am looking for as to a purpose of the current CSL assigned.

The current limitations still allow you to add multiple OCV together (ie 2 rapiers. It is a 5 pt after all) but I like the idea more of being able to use an offhand weapon to get a DCV bonus, kinda like a parry dagger.

 

Also, the point of understanding the OCV bonus is not getting bogged down in the details of the weapon but to be sure of the potential uses based on how it is defined. If I was not interested in building weapons and just wanted to use stock everything, I would go and play D20 or something