Mind swapping

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mind swapping

 

Isn't the new "Instant Change" basically using Transform on yourself with semantics twist of "No' date=' you're using it on your clothing"?[/quote']

 

 

Your clothes may be you, my clothes are not me.

 

I know what you mean: it is sailing close to the wind, but as you do not pay points for clothes I'd probably let it slide. I would not let someone use this to, for instance, instant change their power armour though. That would require a shapeshift or somesuch.

[OddHat]

Re: Mind swapping

 

Ah, but I tend to obey the rules even if I don't like them. That is why I'm so particular about getting them right.

 

Came to me today why I've been against the transform approach: for the very reason you can not do it given in the rules: it becomes a cheap multiform - you are getting a brand new body and brand new powers every time you use it. The 'right' power to do that is multiform (actually it is better than multiform as damage does not carry over).

 

You could build this as a multiform to change yourself into the body of your opponent and a transform to change their body into yours. Lot more expensive and mot such a quick and sure thing.

 

Using a Multiform VPP that requires the successful use of a Transformation attack on the target might not be a bad way to go. Physically switching places could be handled with a teleport. Price-wise, it might more accurately reflect the value of the power.

 

It would still fail to be any more legal. After all, Transform as a Side Effect is perfectly legal.

[OddHat]

Re: Mind swapping

 

Your clothes may be you, my clothes are not me.

 

I know what you mean: it is sailing close to the wind, but as you do not pay points for clothes I'd probably let it slide. I would not let someone use this to, for instance, instant change their power armour though. That would require a shapeshift or somesuch.

 

Steve has posted that Instant-Changing into your Power Armor is just a Special Effect, and costs nothing. Personally, I think he must have been drunk at the time.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mind swapping

 

Using a Multiform VPP that requires the successful use of a Transformation attack on the target might not be a bad way to go. Physically switching places could be handled with a teleport. Price-wise, it might more accurately reflect the value of the power.

 

It would still fail to be any more legal. After all, Transform as a Side Effect is perfectly legal.

 

I'm OK with transform as a side effect. Really. But if you are getting it as a limitation (even a -0 limitation) it should be a limitation. We are so close to agreeing here, if only I could shut up.......

 

Ach, can't do it.

 

Taking a long perspective here what the power does is gives you your opponent's physical abilities and powers. In effect it changes the points you were built on, especially if the original body was a wimp physically. Even though the SFX are that you move minds, the actual effect is that you get a new character: especially if there is a way to prevent having to revert (the sqishy option, we'll call it, eh?). However you describe it what you are doing is changing yourself. Improving yourself. I'm pretty sure that is not a legal use for a limitation, so saying the transform is a side effect is compounding matters.

 

I'm going to stop now. I've said my piece. **inserts large apple into mouth**

 

mphmmmggg mthggphm mthphmmmg?

[OddHat]

Re: Mind swapping

 

I'm OK with transform as a side effect. Really. But if you are getting it as a limitation (even a -0 limitation) it should be a limitation. We are so close to agreeing here, if only I could shut up.......

 

Ach, can't do it.

 

Taking a long perspective here what the power does is gives you your opponent's physical abilities and powers. In effect it changes the points you were built on, especially if the original body was a wimp physically. Even though the SFX are that you move minds, the actual effect is that you get a new character: especially if there is a way to prevent having to revert (the sqishy option, we'll call it, eh?). However you describe it what you are doing is changing yourself. Improving yourself. I'm pretty sure that is not a legal use for a limitation, so saying the transform is a side effect is compounding matters.

 

I'm going to stop now. I've said my piece. **inserts large apple into mouth**

 

mphmmmggg mthggphm mthphmmmg?

 

The Side Effect Limitation is not what gets you the new character. The Side Effect is what gets rid of your old body.

 

You are in fact objecting to the offensive side of the power, not the limitation.

 

You do not object to the Transform: His Mind into My Mind on the basis of rule legality, but game balance. I agree: It is potentially a vastly unbalancing power. It's also rules legal.

 

Feel free to ban it.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Mind swapping

 

In effect it changes the points you were built on' date=' especially if the original body was a wimp physically.[/quote']

 

An interesting way of looking at it. From that perspective, Transform looks like less of a kludge. What other Powers are based on the active points of the character being affected? Summon, Multiform, Duplication... any others?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mind swapping

 

Your clothes may be you, my clothes are not me.

 

I know what you mean: it is sailing close to the wind, but as you do not pay points for clothes I'd probably let it slide. I would not let someone use this to, for instance, instant change their power armour though. That would require a shapeshift or somesuch.

 

Well, clothes do make the man! [Maybe the clothes should have Transform...or Instant Change should be purchased by buying your clothes as a follower with Shape Shift!]

 

On the power armor issue, if you could Instant Change into it, I'd call it an IIF at best.

[Kristopher]

Re: Mind swapping

 

Violating the other players' trust in this fashion -- deliberately disrupting the game -- is about the worst thing a player can do' date=' short of physically or verbally attacking the other players. Shame on you.[/quote']

 

Whether that's any kind of violation depends entirely on the players and group dynamics of the actual group in question. For some groups, it would simply be a fun and harmless exercise -- and I don't mean groups full of oily juvenile munchkins of the worst order, either.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Mind swapping

 

Well' date=' clothes do make the man! [Maybe the clothes should have Transform...or Instant Change should be purchased by buying your clothes as a follower with Shape Shift!']

 

On the power armor issue, if you could Instant Change into it, I'd call it an IIF at best.

 

But it IS obvious that the powers come from the armour when the powers are being used!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mind swapping

 

But it IS obvious that the powers come from the armour when the powers are being used!

 

Actually, what I shoud have said was "-1/4 at best". It's probably closer to a limited form of Restrainable if you can summon it back with an exertion of Instant Change. While the focus can technically be removed, there's no way to keep it "removed".

[sinanju]

Re: Mind swapping

 

Violating the other players' trust in this fashion -- deliberately disrupting the game -- is about the worst thing a player can do' date=' short of physically or verbally attacking the other players. Shame on you.[/quote']

 

Hey, I didn't use it on the other players--only the bad guys. When we were captured by the master villain, it didn't take long for me to kill the master villain and possess his body, then order his goons to let everyone go. Getting away myself was a little more difficult--I didn't get to keep his phenomenally powerful body, darn it. I had to jump one of his minions and flee to rejoin the PCs.

 

On the other hand, the fact that any telepathic contact with me at all would cause me to jump the other person _did_ protect me from the PC who was quietly and undetectably programming the other PCs as they slept to become his loyal minions. He was afraid to try it on me.

[OddHat]

Re: Mind swapping

 

How would you feel about this?

 

Mind Switching – 25 points Per d6, Mental Power, Ranged, LOS, Works versus Ego Defense. May use Mind Scan to locate target.

 

Mind Switching works as an all-or-nothing transformation attack versus EGO. To switch minds, the attacker must roll more than twice the targets EGO. At that point, the target’s mind and the attacker’s mind will switch bodies. All skills travel with the “mindâ€, as do powers with a Psionics special effect, including the Mind Switch power itself. At the GM’s discretion, mental abilities that are purely physical in origin (skills gained through a physical skill chip implant, drug induced powers, etc) may remain with the body.

 

The user of Mind Switch may take a victim with a maximum character point value of 25 points per die of mind switch; if a victim is built on more than this number of points, the attacker will not have access to some of the body's physical powers and characteristics after the change. Note that this is the value before the switch, not after. Mind Switch does not give either the attacker or target access to the memories of the other. Mind Switch is permanent until reversed by another application of the power.

 

The maximum point value of the body that may be taken may be increased by 5 points per additional point spent on the power.

 

Example 1: Jump-R-Boy has 5d6 of mind switch, and targets Jack Normal, a 25 point character with an Ego of 8. Jump-R rolls 18 points of effect, and can possess a character worth up to 125 points. He easily takes Jack Normal’s body, and will have full access to all of Jack Normal’s characteristics, powers, and perks.

 

Example 2: Tired of Jack’s body, Jump-R decides to go for the 350 point heroine Modesty Blaze. Her EGO is 10. Jump-R hits, and rolls 21 points. Jump-R now has Modesty’s body, and Modesty is stuck in Jack’s body. Modesty has no access to her Super Strength or Flight, but her Pyrokinetic powers have traveled with her. Meanwhile, Jack is in Modesty’s body. He has no access to her Pyrokinetic powers, and since that still leaves her body as built on more than 350 points, he also has no access to her Flight or Super Strength. Jump-R is disappointed.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mind swapping

 

The Side Effect Limitation is not what gets you the new character. The Side Effect is what gets rid of your old body.

 

You are in fact objecting to the offensive side of the power, not the limitation.

 

You do not object to the Transform: His Mind into My Mind on the basis of rule legality, but game balance. I agree: It is potentially a vastly unbalancing power. It's also rules legal.

 

Feel free to ban it.

 

 

mnghgph mgphrmmph mmghr! mhhggmprphmr, mmmgphgmmrr mmrp! mgmg!

 

**removes large apple from mouth** but I quite like your mind switching power. Might have to make it you can possess up to 30 points per d6 or you'll always end up worse off (I think). How would you determine which powers you can access in marginal cases (or is it all or nothing?)

[OddHat]

Re: Mind swapping

 

mnghgph mgphrmmph mmghr! mhhggmprphmr, mmmgphgmmrr mmrp! mgmg!

 

**removes large apple from mouth** but I quite like your mind switching power. Might have to make it you can possess up to 30 points per d6 or you'll always end up worse off (I think). How would you determine which powers you can access in marginal cases (or is it all or nothing?)

 

It could be 50 points per D6 if each D6 cost 30 points. The power is costed as a transform with appropriate advantages and limits, and a Multiform VPP with "Only into Target+Own Mental Powers and Skills" added on. A minor fudge factor was used to keep the cost ending in 5 or 0.

 

I'd say that powers that rely on skill would be innaccessible, and powers relying on a mix of skill and raw power would be partially inaccessible. This is mainly done for mechanical reasons, to allow the Mind Switcher to take characters with higher point totals than his switching can perfectly duplicate.

[Basil]

Re: Mind swapping

 

Except that using Duplication as you suggest is both cumbersome (you are suggesting using Duplication to transform someone) and against the rules (No UAA for Duplication without special permission' date=' which can allow anything) while a direct transformation is simple and legal, if arguably overpowered. [/quote']

 

No, I'm saying that the Side Effect, "Transform, Me Into Someone With My Body but His Mind" is, in fact, creating a small-d duplicate of myself. I think that's best done with the Power, capital-D Duplication. That it's cumbersome is unfortunate, but better IMO than using Transform.

 

As for legality: 5th Ed page 102 says: "Unless he has GM's permission to do so, a character cannot buy Duplication Usable As Attack to make Duplicates of things he has not paid Character Points for or does not normally possess (for example, the Hope Diamond or the Mona Lisa)." Except for, perhaps, the new body's Physical Characteristics, this restriction doesn't apply.

 

Of course, it may not be necessary to have UAA at all. I am, after all, using the target as, in a way, a template for my Duplication; just as someone Summoning a zombie and needing a dead body as a Focus need not take UAA on the Summoning, it might be said this Duplication does not need UAA, just a person to be the Focus. That, however, seems to me to make the power too strong. Perhaps a Limited Power Limitation rather than UAA?

[Basil]

Re: Mind swapping

 

The same guy who created the rule "You can't transform yourself" also created the exception for Mind Switching on page 156 of the USPDB.

Actually, the write-up (which is on the next page) doesn't say which Power the Side Effect is. In fact, it looks like "Imperial Fiat" to me. IOW, no Power is used, it's just "Something That Happens."

 

Of course, perhaps that's the best thing to do in this case.

[Basil]

Re: Mind swapping

 

Using a Multiform VPP that requires the successful use of a Transformation attack on the target might not be a bad way to go. Physically switching places could be handled with a teleport. Price-wise' date=' it might more accurately reflect the value of the power.[/quote']

Hmmm...

 

OK, I think this is the best way to do it. Transform him have your body, Multiform yourself to have his; VPP so you can Multiform to anyone. Neat and straightforward.

 

Thanks, Oddhat; I think you've got it.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mind swapping

 

Steve has posted that Instant-Changing into your Power Armor is just a Special Effect' date=' and costs nothing. Personally, I think he must have been drunk at the time. [/quote']

 

That or he has some really impressive powered armour. With beer goggles, no doubt!

[zornwil]

Re: Mind swapping

 

Published Champions characters (and published supplements) break the rules with impunity. They always have.

And it's not really a bad thing, if you think about it, as I have more and more . HOWEVER, I wish they'd state outright, basically, "we break the rules sometimes because that's what a designer does - we encourage you to do so when it makes sense." Because to me that is one of the beauties of HERO, it's rules are made to be bent and broken but the holisitc nature of the system lets the whole work so long as you don't go too far.

[zornwil]

Re: Mind swapping

 

I know this discussion started with "how to do this by the rules", but anyway I shall go ahead and refer anyone interested in one possible way to do this with a new power to http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=577044&postcount=10 . And to be clear, this was bulit on other posters' work to a large extent, though it was more by osmosis and I'm sorry I can't give specific credits.

 

Bblackmoor, maybe this will help if you want to do the same thing again and don't mind a new power. Or maybe not.