Magic systems in Champions

[BlueBuddha]

How do people handle magic, i.e. superpowers with mystic origins and special effects in Champions?

 

Personally, I feel that since magic can justify the use of almost any power , it should be restricted in creative ways, depending on the paradigm or "style" of magic being used. Hermetic magic could be restricted in the way that is described in Ars Magica, for instance, where the rules say you can't overrule God, can't affect the soul, and can't easily create something from nothing and make it last for any length of time.

 

I created a character who followed a hermetic/tolkienesqe style of magic where any lethal (killing) power came with a price of corruption (a side effect of a BOECV transform which would turn him evil and enslave him until the plot said otherwise). Also, healing magic was very limited. Other mystics may have mastered the ability to do this without corruption, but they were in their own ways restricted.

 

What do you think?

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Magic systems in Champions

 

How do people handle magic, i.e. superpowers with mystic origins and special effects in Champions?

 

Personally, I feel that since magic can justify the use of almost any power , it should be restricted in creative ways, depending on the paradigm or "style" of magic being used. Hermetic magic could be restricted in the way that is described in Ars Magica, for instance, where the rules say you can't overrule God, can't affect the soul, and can't easily create something from nothing and make it last for any length of time.

 

I created a character who followed a hermetic/tolkienesqe style of magic where any lethal (killing) power came with a price of corruption (a side effect of a BOECV transform which would turn him evil and enslave him until the plot said otherwise). Also, healing magic was very limited. Other mystics may have mastered the ability to do this without corruption, but they were in their own ways restricted.

 

What do you think?

 

I think the main thing is to give everyone else a niche. Magic should not be used as freely as normal superpowers, and it shouldn't be as useful in combat.

 

There should be a mechanical reason why the Mage only casts when he has to. Probably having a relatively low END/REC score.

 

But in the Comics, Supermages can do a huge variety of things, if they have to. So let them.

[gojira]

Re: Magic systems in Champions

 

I basically agree with you. Healing should be limited because it's not really in the genre. Cosmic VPPs should be limited to powerful NPCs, basically arch-mages who have forgotten more spells than most mages even know.

 

(I don't remember seeing any healing at all five years ago, except for Wolverine and various baddies with regeneration. Healing in the super hero comics used to be a hospital bed and a whole lotta bandages. Or a character had "empathy" but that was really slow. Now Angel has healing powers--I blame EQ for popularizing the whole idea of a healer being essential to a group.)

 

Beast Boy has a cosmic VPP, but he's limited to shapechange and even then to (mostly) normal animals. That's a pretty good limitation.

 

Magic to me is just another origin story. Magic users have magical warding (FF), magic blasts of fire or mystic light or something (EB), maybe one other tricky atack (NND, Ego attack), and flight (flight). There's your basic mage right there, all in a nice EC framework.

 

Player concept should rule, guarded only by a GM's keen sense of cheese. And I really like your Tolkien mage.

[BlueBuddha]

Re: Magic systems in Champions

 

Yeah, the "Tolkien Mage" is subtly styled after Gandalf. He's a normal mortal human, but he wears a gray coat and uses a staff. His powers aren't fire-based, but his style is definitely a supporting/useuful type character, rather than an offensive type. He's actually pretty screwed in combat, even against supers his level.

 

Basically, his staff is bought as a +4 DC HA (pretty tough, I know, but with his 10 STR, he needs it just to hurt anybody), and +10 REC. Also, all of his powers are bought partially OAF. All of his spells in his multipower, as well as the the reserve, are 40 AP, with the last 20 points bough OAF. The idea is that the staff, which he crafted himself, helps him focus his power. He's like a low-powered hero without his staff, a normal powered hero with it.

 

I just think that origins and sfx should be used as a guideline to limit powers. In the case of magic, it's hard to find obvious limitations for powers, and sometimes you need to be a little creative and use limits that might seem arbitrary.

[Jhamin]

Re: Magic systems in Champions

 

My thought on the matter is that you need to decide what kind of magic you are using then work from those effects. In this way Magic is not different from Mutant Powers or Supertech. Cyclops and Storm are both mutants, but Cyc will not be summoning hurricanes any time soon as it isn't in his concept.

 

In the same way, a Tolkien style mage will not be animating Zombies or using the Evil Eye, while a Native American Shamen will not be reading the Dragon Lines.

From my point of view, supers like Witchcraft & Dr. Strange are a type of mage unique to comics, the "Super Mage". In general these folks have lots of attacks, lots of defences, and alot of dimensional type powers (Astral Travel, entity summoning, etc) but generally do not have the ability to augment their own abilities (like a totemic shamen might) and generally do not recieve their magic from an outside source. They might call on other sources for help, but usually "manipulate magic directly" rather than relying on a god or somesuch to furnish them with their mojo.

[Lightray]

Personally' date=' I feel that since magic can justify the use of almost any power , it should be restricted in creative ways, depending on the paradigm or "style" of magic being used. Hermetic magic could be restricted in the way that is described in Ars Magica, for instance, where the rules say you can't overrule God, can't affect the soul, and can't easily create something from nothing and make it last for any length of time.[/quote']

While I adore Ars Magica it is spectacularly crappy at portraying what any real-world scholar would recognize as Hermetic magic. The Mysteries attempted to bring a bit of Hermeticism into things, but it's still completely in fantasy land.

 

That said, the limits on Ars Magic are pretty good inasmuch as they're designed to make things more gameable.

 

In my own campaign - which was originally a Mystic Masters type, now rebooted 15 years later - the SuperMage characters each have a particular style and specialty. Otherwise the characters all look the same. It helps knowing that Sahir specializes in djinni summoning and names, and Circe specializes in illusions and transformations, and Aleator uses mathematical and chaos theory magics.

 

This way, I know that none of them should be able to just whip up a "Fireball" spell, although they might be able to justify something similar using their own style of magic.

[zornwil]

Re: Magic systems in Champions

 

I don't mind being fairly broad with the application of magic and what it can do in a mid- or high-powered Chamipons campaign. If magic is just fueling a particular power then that's just the background and I don't really require too much aside from a basic understanding of the magical energy on some level. However, I do treat magic as its own distinct force if the attack is purely supernatural, i.e., it does not obey physical laws. In this case I have Supernatural Defense (INT/5), Supernatural Attack (similar to Energy Blast or Hand to Hand, but goes against SD of course), and Supernaturally Advantaged (same as basing something on mental but this is for supernatural effects of course).

 

As to the SFX/background, the degree and usage varies per campaign. For a general background on magic in my game, see http://www.realschluss.org/x-champions/x-champions_setting/x-magic.htm The house rules have more information on what I discussed above regarding Supernatural defense/attack, http://www.realschluss.org/x-champions/house_rules/index.html

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Magic systems in Champions

 

In the same way' date=' a Tolkien style mage will not be animating Zombies or using the Evil Eye, while a Native American Shamen will not be reading the Dragon Lines.[/quote']

 

Unless they learned their magic from Llewellyn New Age paperbacks. Egyptian Runic Kabbalah, anyone? :-P

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Magic systems in Champions

 

Let me just get the obligatory "The Mystic World goes into the issues of supermagic in considerable detail" plug out of the way...

 

One thing about comic-book magicians is that, while they may seem to incant rhyming words, wiggle their fingers, use amulets and other paraphernalia, they never seem to actually be restricted by those things; they can still cast spells if bound and gagged, their mystic bling is taken away, etc.

 

While the 5E interpretation of these things is that they're pure SFX and have no game impact, I've always been fond of an idea from the 4E Ultimate Supermage book, which suggested that all supermage spells take Variable Limitations. This represents the mage needing to do something to cast spells, but if his hands and mouth are bound he can substitute Concentration and/or Extra Time, for example.

[BlueBuddha]

Re: Magic systems in Champions

 

I've always been fond of an idea from the 4E Ultimate Supermage book' date=' which suggested that all supermage spells take Variable Limitations. This represents the mage needing to do [i']something[/i] to cast spells, but if his hands and mouth are bound he can substitute Concentration and/or Extra Time, for example.

 

Oh, that's a good one. Never thought of that. It seems to fit perfectly with the mystic concept too. Thanks.

[Lightray]

Unless they learned their magic from Llewellyn New Age paperbacks. Egyptian Runic Kabbalah' date=' anyone?[/quote']

[gojira]

Re: Magic systems in Champions

 

One thing about comic-book magicians is that, while they may seem to incant rhyming words, wiggle their fingers, use amulets and other paraphernalia, they never seem to actually be restricted by those things; they can still cast spells if bound and gagged, their mystic bling is taken away, etc.

 

While the 5E interpretation of these things is that they're pure SFX and have no game impact, I've always been fond of an idea from the 4E Ultimate Supermage book, which suggested that all supermage spells take Variable Limitations. This represents the mage needing to do something to cast spells, but if his hands and mouth are bound he can substitute Concentration and/or Extra Time, for example.

 

 

You know, this is a very good point. But the thing is, ALL super heroes are able to use the powers in wierd and unexpected ways, when the chips are down. Often they do it just by trying really hard, concetrating harder or longer, focusing, or by grimacing and sweating a lot.

 

This is what the the rules seem to be simulating by allowing a super to "push" his attacks. A variable limitation would just give the super much more flexibility how his power may be pushed. I'm thinking now of adding a house rule that allows a variable advantage pool on any power, with GM's permission and subject to the rule: Only to Get Out of a Really Tight Jam.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Magic systems in Champions

 

You know, this is a very good point. But the thing is, ALL super heroes are able to use the powers in wierd and unexpected ways, when the chips are down. Often they do it just by trying really hard, concetrating harder or longer, focusing, or by grimacing and sweating a lot.

 

This is what the the rules seem to be simulating by allowing a super to "push" his attacks. A variable limitation would just give the super much more flexibility how his power may be pushed. I'm thinking now of adding a house rule that allows a variable advantage pool on any power, with GM's permission and subject to the rule: Only to Get Out of a Really Tight Jam.

 

Not a bad idea, that.

 

Perhaps a Variable Advantage Naked Advantage for a group of closely related Powers, appropriately Limited.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Magic systems in Champions

 

Not a bad idea, that.

 

Perhaps a Variable Advantage Naked Advantage for a group of closely related Powers, appropriately Limited.

 

Or a campaign rule that in desperate circumstances PC's may substitue for certain common magic limitations with others from the list at a double rate (so to sub for a -1/2 limit that you can't use, you have to take -1 worth of limits from the list)

 

"Can you send that thing back to Hell?"

"Well.... I usually breach the wall between worlds with the power of the Star of Morning, but they stole it from me. I might be able to raise the power from my staff of mastery."

"You can do that?"

"Yes, in theory. In practice? If the energy gets away from me then I might open a door that lets something that makes THAT *points at demon* look like a girl scout convention."

[Lightray]

Perhaps a Variable Advantage Naked Advantage for a group of closely related Powers' date=' appropriately Limited.[/quote']

Things like that I allow as power tricks using the wizard's Magic Power Skill, just like I allow similar uses of the Power Skill for other power special effects. No need to penalize the supermages just because they're not mutants.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Magic systems in Champions

 

Magic to me is just another origin story.

 

Exactly. Don't make the player jump through hoops just because the special effect is "Atlantean Sorcery" rather than "Gamma Radiation". A magical character should follow the same commonsense guidelines (e.g., unifying themes for Power Frameworks, respect for each character's niche in the group, etc.) as any other character: no more, no less.