Automatic Hit Advantage

[Sean Waters]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

Nothing insurmountable, although the points you raise would need to be addressed. I will give my take on it.

 

can it evade obstacles and/or cover?

 

No. "Always hits" simply takes the place of a normal (successful) attack roll.

 

 

...but all concealment does is reduce your OCV (not halve it) - other things do that - like the target being smaller than normal.

 

Moreover as this is an advantage you'd always have to use it, so using this rule, even if you could hit the object easily if you didn't have AH, despite cover, you couldn't hit it.

 

I'm sure we can come up with rules to cover every situation, but I don't think you can come up with one simple rule of general applicability that makes the suggested advantage easy to use.

 

I could be wrong....

 

You could make it an attack power adder. Say 20 or 30 points (which would be +10 to +15 OCV if you bought it as levels). That might work better than an advantage.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

What about autofire AH attacks' date=' how would they work? Potential bargain there....[/quote']

 

Or Rapid Fire.

 

Mind you, as the attack doesn't require a normal roll to hit, atofire costs double, so this is getting expensive fast. Let's assume 10d6, Always Hits (+1). Add in Autofire (to get, say, 5 shots) at +1, that's 150 points. We could have had 15d6 that always hits instead. If 10d6 would get damage through, 15d6 will get solid damage through.

 

Of course, we could also have had a 30d6 normal attack, spread for +10 OCV (there's that 18 OCV you were nervous about before) and done 20d6 damage.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

I agree, especially in a "universal" system like Hero. Whether specific gamers use a game feature or don't seems secondary to me; there are plenty of "standard" Hero rules I've never used for philosophical reasons, and probably never will. I don't begrudge their existence. But if you pitch a system as being able to model any genre, why arbitrarily exclude some of the most obvious examples in several genres? "Because it can get complicated" is a cop-out as far as I'm concerned. Solve the problem, Stop Sign it if need be and move on.

 

Honestly, if Megascale is an acceptable addition to Hero, "No Attack Roll Needed" seems trivial by comparison. But as bb said, it's a philosophical issue, not necessarily a matter of which answer is logical and which isn't.

Nicely said.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

When UPS attacks....

 

1 pip RKA, always hits, dart

 

150 active point poison smeared on the dart....

 

You get around it by requiring the poison to be built with the 'always hits' advantage too, but that's just accounting for the sake of it and makes no real sense. mind you, when has sense mattered, eh?

Yes you do. Just like if you want no range modifier on a linked attack, you have to buy it for all the attacks.

 

What about autofire AH attacks, how would they work? Potential bargain there....

Good point. I'd say: you hit. Roll damage. Once. If you want to hit more than once, roll. MAYBE the first attack always hits, so if you roll and "miss" the damage is still done once. I'd have to think about it.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

Or Rapid Fire.

 

Mind you, as the attack doesn't require a normal roll to hit, atofire costs double, so this is getting expensive fast. Let's assume 10d6, Always Hits (+1). Add in Autofire (to get, say, 5 shots) at +1, that's 150 points. We could have had 15d6 that always hits instead. If 10d6 would get damage through, 15d6 will get solid damage through.

 

Of course, we could also have had a 30d6 normal attack, spread for +10 OCV (there's that 18 OCV you were nervous about before) and done 20d6 damage.

 

Oh can't you see them slavering, and hear that terrible munchkin howl?

 

1d6 NND (+1) AH (+1) Autofire 40 shots (+3) Does BODY (+1) total cost 35 points, delivers, on average, 140 Stun and 40 Body per attack, no chance of missing...

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

What about autofire AH attacks' date=' how would they work?[/quote']

 

Autofire attacks would probably cost double, like they do when combined with some other Advantages.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

Or Rapid Fire.

Well, my idea of requiring an overall OCV of 3 (at the hex of the target) would probably work here. It would still be similar to a Rapid Fire Area of Effect, and additional shots fired after your OCV dropped below 3 would require attack rolls.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

1d6 NND (+1) AH (+1) Autofire 40 shots (+3) Does BODY (+1) total cost 35 points' date=' delivers, on average, 140 Stun and 40 Body per attack, no chance of missing...[/quote']

 

It does fall apart at very low and very high base point costs, but that's a weakness of the multiplicative nature of Advantages rather than any specific Advantage. Hero System does have its vulnerabilities.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

...but all concealment does is reduce your OCV (not halve it) - other things do that - like the target being smaller than normal.

 

Moreover as this is an advantage you'd always have to use it, so using this rule, even if you could hit the object easily if you didn't have AH, despite cover, you couldn't hit it.

 

I'm sure we can come up with rules to cover every situation, but I don't think you can come up with one simple rule of general applicability that makes the suggested advantage easy to use.

The way I've been thinking about it is like Area of Effect. I'm comfortable with being able to hit someone behind cover automatically if you could place an Area of Effect attack there--or very nearby--easily (have at least an 11- roll). Maybe that's not the best exact criteria to use, but I think it gives a good guideline for thinking about any problems with the Advantage.

 

You could make it an attack power adder. Say 20 or 30 points (which would be +10 to +15 OCV if you bought it as levels). That might work better than an advantage.

That's an idea, but I kind of like it being more expensive for bigger attacks.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

It does fall apart at very low and very high base point costs' date=' but that's a weakness of the multiplicative nature of Advantages rather than any specific Advantage. Hero System does have its vulnerabilities.[/quote']

Very true. If you apply a bunch of Advantages and Limitations, and they are roughly equal, then adding another Advantage or Limitation changes things very little....

[Sean Waters]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

The other thing I can see happening is the rise of the low DEX high SPD Can't Miss Machine.

 

DEX is a huge expenditure for most characters, often the single most expensive characteristic, and second only to STR for bricks.

 

Can you imagine how boring two of these monkies fighting each other would get.

 

It seems to me that this sort of advantage would green light the munchkins, and could substantially change the dynamic of the game.

 

I don't buy the austinandrews approach: I appreciate that people don't have to use the advantage, but I've seen enough bad law on the statute books to know that the idea that rules will only be used in appropriate situations is either bunkum or a great demonstration of the flexibility of the word 'appropriate'.

 

Megascale doesn't get overused because it is not actually that useful, at least for heroes. I can kill everything in a 10KM radius, HAHA! Well, if I didn't have a code against killing I could....This modification seems to be in an entirely different category.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

That's an idea, but I kind of like it being more expensive for bigger attacks.

 

Advantages fall into different categories: scalable and non scalable. This is more in the latter category than the former: it provides a single advantage that is pretty much independent of the points in the power. An adder would deal with the munchkin build I suggested by making the starting point far too expensive. It also mirrors the fact that, if you did it with levels, the cost would not change as the base power increased.

 

BTW are we looking at the Heimforth build here or not?

[austenandrews]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

What about autofire AH attacks' date=' how would they work? Potential bargain there....[/quote']

Same as they work for AE attacks, I expect.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

Oh can't you see them slavering, and hear that terrible munchkin howl?

 

1d6 NND (+1) AH (+1) Autofire 40 shots (+3) Does BODY (+1) total cost 35 points, delivers, on average, 140 Stun and 40 Body per attack, no chance of missing...

Depends on what the "reasonably common" defense is, I suppose.

 

The other thing to watch out for with this set-up is Knockback. It's going to do a minimum of 29" and a maximum of 39".

[Dust Raven]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

Did you miss the part where I admitted it was hasty and half-baked? Obviously' date=' it would need to be fleshed out. It's just a germ of an idea.[/quote']

 

Didn't miss a thing. Just making an observation I'd hoped you'd take into account as you developed your germ into a full blown virus .

[Dust Raven]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

Er' date=' sorry, but I kind of have to disagree with your argument where White Wolf games are concerned. For some Vampire Disciplines, for example, you merely roll your effect (the Thaumaturgy levels that allow you to drain blood remotely and boil blood, for example), and for Mage you really just make an effect roll. You could argue that this is an attack and effect roll wrapped into one, but targets can't necessarily dodge (well, you can dodge [i']some[/i] spells, but not all, and not many Disciplines and Gifts). There are potentially other abilities that can counter these things, but those are really more like defenses or special countermeasures. Many powers require your effect roll to beat an opponent's skill roll, but I view this more like a Grab that you can oppose but that has automatically hit.

 

I suppose it's a matter of interpretation where rolls in White Wolf games are concerned. In my opinion, saying that just because you make one roll to determine the success of the attack or ability means it automatically hits is like saying that Hit Points in D&D represents how much physical damage you can take (or how many time it takes to run your through before you die). It doesn't really work that way, even though it skips the "middle-man" as far as rolling dice are concerned. If I recall, the target number for rolling successes for such abilities is a trait of the target, which can be seen as the target's defense/DCV/ability to avoid the attack/affect.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

It does fall apart at very low and very high base point costs' date=' but that's a weakness of the multiplicative nature of Advantages rather than any specific Advantage. Hero System does have its vulnerabilities.[/quote']

 

It seems to fall apart much faster too. Is they any other say to build such a thing that does that much damage with a single attack? That's just a few Advantages as well. Most only begin to break down with 5 or more seperate Advantages with a value of +6 or more. Sean's example is just nuts!

[Sean Waters]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

It seems to fall apart much faster too. Is they any other say to build such a thing that does that much damage with a single attack? That's just a few Advantages as well. Most only begin to break down with 5 or more seperate Advantages with a value of +6 or more. Sean's example is just nuts!

 

Thank you

 

And a big shout out to all my squirrel fans too!

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

It seems to fall apart much faster too. Is they any other say to build such a thing that does that much damage with a single attack?

 

Oh, there are far worse combinations. Autofire + Increased Stun Mutliplier, for example. You are letting your philosophy obscure your vision.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

1d6 NND (+1) AH (+1) Autofire 40 shots (+3) Does BODY (+1) total cost 35 points' date=' delivers, on average, 140 Stun and 40 Body per attack, no chance of missing...[/quote']

 

Since I wouldnt allow an abusive construct, I'm not really scared of it. "But it's legal" can easily be cleared with "OK, Group, here's a construct we're thinking of. Do you want this available to the bad guys?" There are lots of ways in the system as it stands to build abusive power constructs, especially if we accept as many "signed" advantages as are desired.

 

If you're going to use your construct or mine, though, you should add in "0 END" and make it 40 points (+1 since it's autofire). Otherwise, that attack just cost you 80 END (I think you compute END before the autofire advantage; if not it's 120 END).

 

And you have two chances of "missing". First, the target may have the defense to the autohit. Second, he may have the defense to yor NND. I would certainly require these defenses differ - you have two very distinct advantages, so you should have two very distinct weaknesses.

 

EDIT: Example abuse: 1d6 Ego Blast Autofire 40 shots (+3), does BOD (+1) costs 50, has a similar effect (esp. if yoiur NND defense is "ego defense"), is invisible to all but mental senses, and can be used through a Mind Scan, so I don't have to risk being targeted by my opponent.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

I would certainly require these defenses differ - you have two very distinct advantages' date=' so you should have two very distinct weaknesses.[/quote']

 

That's a wise policy. I'll have to remember that.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

The other thing I can see happening is the rise of the low DEX high SPD Can't Miss Machine.

 

Why don't we have that now? Area Effect 1 hex Accurate has similar effect, since I always target a 3 DCV. 1d6 NND (+1) AE1HA (+1/2), LOS range or NRM (+1/2) Autofire 40 shots (+3) Does BODY (+1) total cost 35 points, delivers, on average, 140 Stun and 40 Body per attack, [yes, that's your construct with a few sub's] Tack on a few OCV boinuses (2 point levels) and his only hope is to dive for cover. Since you postulate a high SPD character, he'll have more phases than his target, so DFC can't go on forever.

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

We already have a "can't miss". It's called Area Effect: Hex, Megascale (+1/4), one target only (-1/2, or -1/4, or whatever), no range (-1/2). Let's see you dive for cover a half kilometer away.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

We already have a "can't miss". It's called Area Effect: Hex' date=' Megascale (+1/4), one target only (-1/2, or -1/4, or whatever), no range (-1/2). Let's see you dive for cover a half kilometer away.[/quote']

Under those circumstances, I wouldn't call "one target only" a Limitation, because it keeps you from hitting yourself, teammates, innocent bystanders, and so on. I would make you pay more (probably a lot more) for that ability as a Power Advantage.

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

Under those circumstances' date=' I wouldn't call "one target only" a Limitation, because it keeps you from hitting yourself, teammates, innocent bystanders, and so on. [u']I[/u] would make you pay more (probably a lot more) for that ability as a Power Advantage.

 

Yeah, but take a look at the writeup for Omega Beams (or whatever they're called) in UNTIL Superpowers Database. My way is cheaper, but uses the same limitation.