Automatic Hit Advantage

[Dust Raven]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

No Normal Evasion

 

With this +1 Power Advantage, an attack does not require an Attack Roll in order to strike its target. Instead, the target is automatically affected unless they have the specified means of avoiding it. Whenever NNE is applied to a Power, a reasonably common effect must be defined that will cause the attack to miss. For example, a heat-seeking missile with NNE might miss any target that didn't emit heat above a certain temperature, or that had a means of masking its heat emissions. A magic missile might miss any target with appropriate defensive powers or spells (such as Shield ).

 

Like No Normal Defense, No Normal Evasion attacks do not cause BODY damage by default. If NNE is applied to an attack that you wish to have do BODY, you must also apply the Does BODY Advantage.

 

The cost of NNE is based on the assumption that the conditions allowing evasion are less "common" than being missed by the attack would normally be. If the conditions for evasion are common enough that the GM considers them to allow evasion as often as normal Attack Rolls vs DCV and so on would (the NNE equivalent of NND's "Equally Common Defense"), then the cost of NNE is only +1/2.

 

Interesting, but how does it apply when the attacker is Blind, or the target is invisible? How does it apply if the target is near the maximum range of the Power and the attacker would have a -10 OCV RMod?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

Interesting' date=' but how does it apply when the attacker is Blind, or the target is invisible? How does it apply if the target is near the maximum range of the Power and the attacker would have a -10 OCV RMod?[/quote']Did you miss the part where I admitted it was hasty and half-baked? Obviously, it would need to be fleshed out. It's just a germ of an idea.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

Obviously' date=' it would need to be fleshed out. It's just a germ of an idea.[/quote']

 

It is an interesting way of looking at the problem, though. It would not have occurred to me to model it after an NND.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

Nothing insurmountable, although the points you raise would need to be addressed. I will give my take on it.

 

Is it missile deflect-able?

 

Yes.

 

If so, then what's the associated OCV?

 

The character's current OCV.

 

Is it inherently indirect?

 

No. "Always hits" simply takes the place of a normal (successful) attack roll.

 

can it evade obstacles and/or cover?

 

No. "Always hits" simply takes the place of a normal (successful) attack roll.

 

What if you're flashed? Can you still use it to automatically hit even if you have no compensating targetting sense?

 

Here I would amend the Advantage to specify that the "Always hits" Advantage is only effective when the character is at their full OCV. Anything which halves the character's OCV, such as being Flashed or out of combat, would prevent the "Always hits" Advantage from coming into play.

 

What if the target is invisible and you have no targetting sense that can perceive the target?

 

See above.

 

What if the target is a perceived (and believed) image? Mental image?

 

"Always hits" simply takes the place of a normal (successful) attack roll. The Image or Mental Image will react as it would had the character hit it without the "Always hits" Advantage.

NICE considerations, bblackmoor! A lot of this was how I was thinking the Advantage would work. I like the part about not working when your OCV is halved. I was also thinking that maybe it wouldn't work if your overall OCV, minus the DCV of the hex in which the target resides (or any hex the target is in if it is bigger than normal), is less than zero. That would make it a little range-limited unless you bought some range Advantages. This might be unneeded complication, though.

[austenandrews]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

No Normal Evasion

That's a pretty cool idea. Though the more I think about it, the more I really want it to cost more than +1. I'd have to run through other Advantages to get a more concrete number, though (I'm at work atm).

[Fox1]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

Just passing through this thread. Won't staying in it to debate the point.

 

But did want to comment that I think it's a bad idea that in general breaks a key design path of HERO.

 

Carry on.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

I like Derek's 'No Normal Evasion' idea: it feels more in keeping with the Hero ethos that there is always a defence.

 

Mind you I'm not sure that the cost is right for any of this: I mean to make a 10d6 EB 'NNE' or Auto-Hitting (AH?) will cost an additional 50 points.

 

Phil pointed out at the start of the thread that it was only a matter of time before somesone said 'buy lots of CSLs'.

 

Well why not?

 

For 50 points you could get +25 OCV, and frankly that's just silly.

 

For most practical intents and purposes +10 OCV (20 points) is 'AH'.

 

It's cheaper, and works just as well. OK you can't stick limitiations on 2 point levels, but what do you want? Blood? Actually, I suppose you do....

[austenandrews]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

It'd definitely be a Stop Sign Advantage. I would only allow it in very justifiable circumstances. Otherwise no one would ever bother with Combat Levels, spending the points of defenses instead.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

That's a pretty cool idea. Though the more I think about it' date=' the more I really want it to cost more than +1.[/quote']

 

If you do it as Derek suggests, it would cost more than +1, because Derek's version is Stun-only.

 

Personally, I think +1 is about right, when compared to other Advantages.

[austenandrews]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

If you do it as Derek suggests' date=' it [i']would[/i] cost more than +1, because Derek's version is Stun-only.

Very good point.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

For most practical intents and purposes +10 OCV (20 points) is 'AH'.

 

That (combined with the No Range Modifier Advantage) is functionally equivalent to the initial suggestion. Calling the combination a +1 Advantage "Always hits" (or better: "No attack roll needed") merely has the benefit of simplicity.

 

I suppose it boils down to a difference those who like the system to have sharp edges and exposed rivets, and those would like to sand those jagged edges smooth.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

Hero is biased to let you hit 62.5% of the time, everything else being equal. These guys want you to hit: missing just slows down combat. I think +1 is probably too much.

 

I mean, it is one of those silly 'I love absolutes' things. Think it through - you hit more than half the time anyway, so if you hit all the time, that's less than twice as often, so the cost should be less than twice as much.

 

My objection to this sort of mularkey is that you'll really tick off the speedsters and martial artists who rely on DCV not defence, and I can't see why you'd want to.

 

Yeah, but, no, but...you don't complain about NND, do you, huh, huh? That's biased against characters with high defences. Actually, the way the maths works out you probably won't take anyone down with a single NND working to campaign AP levels (what are AP levels? We don't use them....). DCV intensive characters won't have high defences, or be able to take a big hit in many cases. NND can be really useful against lots of different characters and character types. AH is really only aimed at one charcter type: the high DCV merchants.

 

Why do you want this rule? Because you can do it in other game systems? Oh good grief, magic missile does very little damage and can only be used (at levels when a little damage may be significant) a very limited number of times a day. The limits are embedded in the system.

 

Hero should be able to do anything? Why? Hero should be able to do anything that makes for a good game. You want to be able to always hit? How would you feel about a power that always let you be missed? I mean, if the system can do anything, it should be able to handle logical contradictions, neh?

 

(Like starting a post saying that the proposed cost is too high then arguing against the whole thing. Hmm. Sounds familiar... )

[prestidigitator]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

Personally' date=' I've always thought the logic of an "automatic hit" effect should be built around [i']No Normal Defense[/i] rather than around Area Effect. An "automatic hit" attack strikes me (get it?) as being similar to NND in the sense that its usual opposing force does not apply.

 

Attack powers normally operate in opposition to defenses, and NND negates that opposition. Similarly here, attack rolls normally operate in opposition to DCV and other means of evasion (Dodge, Dive For Cover, Concealment, etc.), and the "automatic hit" effect negates that opposition.

 

So as a companion Advantage to NND, what about something like the following? (This is admittedly not fully-baked... I'm writing this up very quickly before leaving for work.)

 

No Normal Evasion

 

With this +1 Power Advantage, an attack does not require an Attack Roll in order to strike its target. Instead, the target is automatically affected unless they have the specified means of avoiding it. Whenever NNE is applied to a Power, a reasonably common effect must be defined that will cause the attack to miss. For example, a heat-seeking missile with NNE might miss any target that didn't emit heat above a certain temperature, or that had a means of masking its heat emissions. A magic missile might miss any target with appropriate defensive powers or spells (such as Shield ).

 

Like No Normal Defense, No Normal Evasion attacks do not cause BODY damage by default. If NNE is applied to an attack that you wish to have do BODY, you must also apply the Does BODY Advantage.

 

The cost of NNE is based on the assumption that the conditions allowing evasion are less "common" than being missed by the attack would normally be. If the conditions for evasion are common enough that the GM considers them to allow evasion as often as normal Attack Rolls vs DCV and so on would (the NNE equivalent of NND's "Equally Common Defense"), then the cost of NNE is only +1/2.

That's a really good idea too, Derek, but for evading something, Area of Effect attacks are already a part of the game, and players already know they can abort to a defensive action to try and evade them. This is as close as we already have to an automatic hit, and I wanted to stay kind of along the same lines, so people know what to expect (and hopefully so it isn't building in a completely new mechanic that can mess a lot with how other Powers and Modifiers interact).

 

I also don't want to build something that is going to completely screw over characters who are built around the concept of not being hit. Absolutes aren't common in Hero, and when they appear to be present, there is often something to balance them (Desolidified characters not being able to affect solid characters, for example).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

Derek, you're too hard on your proposal. These are easy.

 

Interesting' date=' but how does it apply when the attacker is Blind, or the target is invisible?1. Based on my experience in the office, far from it. I do not expect we are the exception in this regard.[/quote']

 

Simply add the following into your phrasing as follows:

 

With this +1 Power Advantage, an attack does not require an Attack Roll in order to strike its target. Instead, the target is automatically affected unless they have the specified means of avoiding it. The attacker must be able to perceive the target, either with a targetting sense or by making a PER roll to locate the target with a non-targetting sense.

 

How does it apply if the target is near the maximum range of the Power and the attacker would have a -10 OCV RMod?

 

It would hit. The attack always hits provided the attacker can perceive the target. The lack of penalty for range is effectively subsumed into the +1 advantage. For +1/2, he could have LOS range, or NRM anyway.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

Actually' date=' the only rules systems I've ever seen an automatic hit in is D&D and Palladium, and I've played Cyberpunk 2020, Shadowrun, White Wolf (Vampire, Mage, Aberrant), Traveller, Amber. Even in Palladium its a matter of interpretation of the Call Lightning spells, which simply states that a bolt of lightning comes down and strikes the target (no mention of a roll to hit, but no confirmation of not needing one).[/quote']

Er, sorry, but I kind of have to disagree with your argument where White Wolf games are concerned. For some Vampire Disciplines, for example, you merely roll your effect (the Thaumaturgy levels that allow you to drain blood remotely and boil blood, for example), and for Mage you really just make an effect roll. You could argue that this is an attack and effect roll wrapped into one, but targets can't necessarily dodge (well, you can dodge some spells, but not all, and not many Disciplines and Gifts). There are potentially other abilities that can counter these things, but those are really more like defenses or special countermeasures. Many powers require your effect roll to beat an opponent's skill roll, but I view this more like a Grab that you can oppose but that has automatically hit.

[nexus]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

Automatic Hits (or any Absolute) is Hero System's answer to Merits and Flaws from White Wolf. Some people love the idea dearly and want Steve Long to pencil it into the Freds personally, others hate the idea with such a passion they lose sleep over the idea that somewhere, somebody might be using it as an optional House Rule.

 

I don't think it'll ever be official beyond the advice for how to fake it, so every GM just has to decide on what side of the fence they sit.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

Automatic Hits (or any Absolute) is Hero System's answer to Merits and Flaws from White Wolf. Some people love the idea dearly and want Steve Long to pencil it into the Freds personally, others hate the idea with such a passion they lose sleep over the idea that somewhere, somebody might be using it as an optional House Rule.

 

I don't think it'll ever be official beyond the advice for how to fake it, so every GM just has to decide on what side of the fence they sit.

Hrm. Not sure what you mean about the Merits and Flaws thing. Just in terms about how people feel about them? Hero System's "answer?"

 

Heh. I am by no means demanding that this be made official or anything! My purpose is mostly to hear what other people think; get holes poked in the idea; hear how people would shore those holes up; see what I might be missing, and get others' opinions on how to do it differently or better balance the cost.

[nexus]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

Hrm. Not sure what you mean about the Merits and Flaws thing. Just in terms about how people feel about them? Hero System's "answer?"

 

In terms of how people feel about them. Merits and Flaws envoke some very passionate arguments on White Wolf forums. Absolute effects seem to do the same thing when it comes to Hero.

 

Heh. I am by no means demanding that this be made official or anything! My purpose is mostly to hear what other people think; get holes poked in the idea; hear how people would shore those holes up; see what I might be missing, and get others' opinions on how to do it differently or better balance the cost.

 

Yeah, I was just exxagerating for comedic effect.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

Personally' date=' I've always thought the logic of an "automatic hit" effect should be built around [i']No Normal Defense[/i] rather than around Area Effect. An "automatic hit" attack strikes me (get it?) as being similar to NND in the sense that its usual opposing force does not apply.

 

So as a companion Advantage to NND, what about something like the following? (This is admittedly not fully-baked... I'm writing this up very quickly before leaving for work.)

 

No Normal Evasion

I like it, Derek! You keep reminding me of why you're often on my "need to rep" list.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

That (combined with the No Range Modifier Advantage) is functionally equivalent to the initial suggestion. Calling the combination a +1 Advantage "Always hits" (or better: "No attack roll needed") merely has the benefit of simplicity.

 

I suppose it boils down to a difference those who like the system to have sharp edges and exposed rivets, and those would like to sand those jagged edges smooth.

 

Sharp edges, jagged bits and exposed rivets every time

 

I mean you smooth it down enough, and it all begins to look the same, doesn't it?

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

I mean you smooth it down enough' date=' and it all begins to look the same, doesn't it?[/quote']

 

I suppose it's a philosophical difference. My philosophy is that the game mechanics should disappear once you start role-playing. Mechanics that distract from the game are mechanics that need improvement. A concept as universal (or nigh-universal) as "no attack roll needed" should have a simple analogue in Hero. We should not need to cobble together a pile of skills, an Advantage or two, and then handwave the details to approximate it.

 

That's what I think, anyway. Those of other philosophies will obviously think differently.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

I suppose it's a philosophical difference. My philosophy is that the game mechanics should disappear once you start role-playing. Mechanics that distract from the game are mechanics that need improvement. A concept as universal (or nigh-universal) as "no attack roll needed" should have a simple analogue in Hero. We should not need to cobble together a pile of skills, an Advantage or two, and then handwave the details to approximate it.

 

That's what I think, anyway. Those of other philosophies will obviously think differently.

 

I see the point, but I don't see having a high OCV and no range modifiers as a problem that jars: of it may look a bit jagged in construction but it is transparent enough in play: I roll 3d6, my OCV is, let's see, 18. M'k, no range mods and you've got a DCV of 13 dodging. I hit you on 16 or less.

 

Thing is the alarm bells would be (or should be) ringing if anyone could get up to an 18 OCV.

 

OK if you automatically hit then you don't even need to roll, but the potential for abuse is ludicrous. Two words: carrier attacks....

[austenandrews]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

I suppose it's a philosophical difference. My philosophy is that the game mechanics should disappear once you start role-playing. Mechanics that distract from the game are mechanics that need improvement. A concept as universal (or nigh-universal) as "no attack roll needed" should have a simple analogue in Hero. We should not need to cobble together a pile of skills' date=' an Advantage or two, and then handwave the details to approximate it.[/quote']

I agree, especially in a "universal" system like Hero. Whether specific gamers use a game feature or don't seems secondary to me; there are plenty of "standard" Hero rules I've never used for philosophical reasons, and probably never will. I don't begrudge their existence. But if you pitch a system as being able to model any genre, why arbitrarily exclude some of the most obvious examples in several genres? "Because it can get complicated" is a cop-out as far as I'm concerned. Solve the problem, Stop Sign it if need be and move on.

 

Honestly, if Megascale is an acceptable addition to Hero, "No Attack Roll Needed" seems trivial by comparison. But as bb said, it's a philosophical issue, not necessarily a matter of which answer is logical and which isn't.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

OK if you automatically hit then you don't even need to roll' date=' but the potential for abuse is ludicrous. Two words: carrier attacks....[/quote']

 

I am not sure what you mean by "carrier attacks" (although I am pretty sure you are not talking about pigeons or paperboys ). Would you explain?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Automatic Hit Advantage

 

I am not sure what you mean by "carrier attacks" (although I am pretty sure you are not talking about pigeons or paperboys ). Would you explain?

 

When UPS attacks....

 

1 pip RKA, always hits, dart

 

150 active point poison smeared on the dart....

 

You get around it by requiring the poison to be built with the 'always hits' advantage too, but that's just accounting for the sake of it and makes no real sense. mind you, when has sense mattered, eh?

 

What about autofire AH attacks, how would they work? Potential bargain there....