Armor = Normal Damage

[RDU Neil]

This occurred to me in a Dark Champs/Heroic level discussion. I wouldn't really think about this for Supers at all...

 

What if Armor turned a KA into a Normal Attack.

 

Example: Shoot a character with a 1d6+1 RKA (9mm pistol). If they have a bullet proof vest... it doesn't add defense... it just changes that shot into 4d6 normal damage, which they apply their PD against. Take a few stun, likely no body, done.

 

The beauty of this is that you simply would look at the rDef of the armor, compared to the DC of the KA.

 

So for a vest to stop a 9mm as above, it would have to be 4 rPD at least. 4 Def vs. 4 Killing DC.

 

If you had a vest of less than 4, maybe the shot blows right through. Not enough body armor to stop it, acts like it isn't there.

 

So, now you have a way (more attuned to real life, in some ways) where armor is matched for the level of weapon it is designed to stop.

 

AP would cut the rPD in half, then compare to DC of attack... so AP could be very lethal... but that can be the case. 7.62 at 2d6+1, becomes a 7d6 normal attack vs. 7rPD, etc.

 

 

Anyway... just another brain spew, coming from the idea that for "light hearted guns" you can treat them as normal attacks... so what if armor turned them INTO normal attacks.

 

Anybody every tried something like this? (Again, I'm thinking at Heroic levels... not in Supers levels with powers and such.)

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Armor = Normal Damage

 

Or AVLD: Resistant Defense

 

Another idea: each point of resistant defense converts 1DC of killing damage to "not so killing damage". Body still applied against rDef. Some wonkiness at the 1DC level.

 

Ex: 2d6 RKA shoots 4 rDef/10 total def armored person. 4rDef converts attack to a 4d6 "EB" + 1/2D6 RKA. 5,4,3,2 come up on the normal dice (4 body/14stun), KA rolls 2 bodyx3=6 stun. Total of 6 Body, 20 Stun. Target takes 2 body, 10 Stun.

[OddHat]

Re: Armor = Normal Damage

 

Personally, I dislike adding extra conversion steps in combat.

 

I'm in favor of doing away with killing attacks entirely and replacing them with a +1/2 Advantage: Killing, vs Resistant Defense. 15 points would get you an average of 2 body and 7 Stun versus Resistant Defenses, versus the current 3.5 Body and 8.75 stun, but it would simplify mechanics and end the Stun lottery. You could also do it as a +1/4 advantage, making Killing Attacks slightly more powerful point-for-point.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Armor = Normal Damage

 

Personally, I dislike adding extra conversion steps in combat.

 

I'm in favor of doing away with killing attacks entirely and replacing them with a +1/2 Advantage: Killing, vs Resistant Defense. 15 points would get you an average of 2 body and 7 Stun versus Resistant Defenses, versus the current 3.5 Body and 8.75 stun, but it would simplify mechanics and end the Stun lottery. You could also do it as a +1/4 advantage, making Killing Attacks slightly more powerful point-for-point.

 

Ahhhhh, yes! I would like to see this particular approach adopted: it is far more in keeping with the way the rest of the system is designed. I'd even allow (in a superhero game) a +0 advantage (killing attack) as the majority of opponents will have resistant DEF or other ways to avoid taking damage.

 

Mind you, before this turns into a 30 page thread, I know my wish will never come true: the killing attack devotees are far to entrenched to see sense

 

On the conversion point I think it makes sense as it is the way that a real bullet proof vest works - a combination of absorbing damage and spreading the impact, you can kinda do it at present: there's nothing to say that armoured vests have to be built just with armour: you can, for instance, buy 4 points of armour (for 6 points) and add on 6pd (which will be effective as you have some resistant def) for 6 more points, total cost 8 with the OIF limitation, but it means that that you can still take BODY but some of the wilder excesses of the STUN lottery. The vest is then 4/10 rPD/PD on top of your normal defences

[RDU Neil]

Re: Armor = Normal Damage

 

I did away with the Stun Lotto so long ago, I don't even consider it in any of my rules discussions. It is totally non-existent, as far as I'm concerned.

 

While the conversion might be too much, I kinda like some simplicity.

 

If Armor has less rDef than the DC of attack, the armor might as well not exist... straight up KA damage to target.

 

If Armor equal to DC of attack, change Killing DC become equal normal DC vs PD/ED.

 

If Armor r/Def EXCEEDS the DC of the attack, it turns it normal AND reduces the DC by 1 for every r/Def over the attack.

 

Example: 2d6 RKA vs. a r4 vest... punches right through.

2d6 RKA vs. r6 vest... becomes 6d6 normal damage.

2d6 RKA vs. r8 vest... becomes 4d6 normal damage (6-2=4)

2d6 RKA vs. r12 vest... nullified completely.

 

Note: Armor does not add to the natural PD and other defenses of the character... it just reduces/converts the actual dice rolled.

 

Again... this might just be genre specific to gun and body armor... but I kinda liked the idea.

 

I'd move away from a combinate normal and killing damage attack... as that would really make my head hurt.

[Beastial]

Re: Armor = Normal Damage

 

You could also do it as a +1/4 advantage' date=' making Killing Attacks slightly more powerful point-for-point.[/quote']

 

A defense should always be as expensive or cheaper than the attack it stops:

 

Example #1 hardening vs AP/Penatrating: Hardening is +1/4, where AP/Pen are +1/2 each.

 

Example #2 EB: 5 pts, 1d6. 4 points of defense will stop it, on average.

 

Example #3 Drain: 10pts, 1d6: 6 points of power defense will totally shut down a 10pt drain. 4 pts will stop it most of the time

 

Example #4 KA: 15 pts, 1d6. 15 points of defense will get to 10rDef, always stopping all the body, and (on average: 3.5 * 2.5 = ~9) the stun. The Dreaded Stun Lottery is still a threat. 30 stun is gonna sting a bit.

 

Resistant defense is effectively a +1/2 advantage, so no way the attack against it should be cheaper... though I certainly wouldn't have a problem with making Rdef a +1/4 as well.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Armor = Normal Damage

 

It's for a supers game, but I instituted a house rule that if rDef was at least 2x the body rolled on the KA, it was completely ignored.

[OddHat]

Re: Armor = Normal Damage

 

A defense should always be as expensive or cheaper than the attack it stops:

 

Example #1 hardening vs AP/Penatrating: Hardening is +1/4, where AP/Pen are +1/2 each.

 

Example #2 EB: 5 pts, 1d6. 4 points of defense will stop it, on average.

 

Example #3 Drain: 10pts, 1d6: 6 points of power defense will totally shut down a 10pt drain. 4 pts will stop it most of the time

 

Example #4 KA: 15 pts, 1d6. 15 points of defense will get to 10rDef, always stopping all the body, and (on average: 3.5 * 2.5 = ~9) the stun. The Dreaded Stun Lottery is still a threat. 30 stun is gonna sting a bit.

 

Resistant defense is effectively a +1/2 advantage, so no way the attack against it should be cheaper... though I certainly wouldn't have a problem with making Rdef a +1/4 as well.

 

So, if you go for Killing a a +1/4 advantage, you can reprice resistant (if you'd like). Or you can go for the original "Killing as a +1/2 advantage" idea, and accept that guns and such will do slightly less damage on a point-by-point basis.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Armor = Normal Damage

 

On the conversion point I think it makes sense as it is the way that a real bullet proof vest works - a combination of absorbing damage and spreading the impact, you can kinda do it at present: there's nothing to say that armoured vests have to be built just with armour: you can, for instance, buy 4 points of armour (for 6 points) and add on 6pd (which will be effective as you have some resistant def) for 6 more points, total cost 8 with the OIF limitation, but it means that that you can still take BODY but some of the wilder excesses of the STUN lottery. The vest is then 4/10 rPD/PD on top of your normal defences

 

This does work... but my problem is that then you say, "Well, that plus 10 non-res PD is good against a bullet... but does it really help against a baseball bat or other attacks? What about vs.a knife or something?"

 

Suddenly that light bullet proof vest means they are practically invulnerable in a fist fight... which is utter crap.

 

If you are afraid of the Stun Lotto... remove it... don't work around it. I don't even remember it exists until one of you remind me about it. I left it behind years ago.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Armor = Normal Damage

 

If you are afraid of the Stun Lotto... remove it... don't work around it. I don't even remember it exists until one of you remind me about it. I left it behind years ago.

 

Hmmm...must be a Speed Chart issue then...

[Phil]

Re: Armor = Normal Damage

 

I'm in favor of doing away with killing attacks entirely and replacing them with a +1/2 Advantage: Killing, vs Resistant Defense.

 

Ditto. Having 2 damage mechanics adds little IMHO, especially when HERO already has more than enough different resolution mechanics for us simple-minded folk

[Sean Waters]

Re: Armor = Normal Damage

 

This does work... but my problem is that then you say, "Well, that plus 10 non-res PD is good against a bullet... but does it really help against a baseball bat or other attacks? What about vs.a knife or something?"

 

Suddenly that light bullet proof vest means they are practically invulnerable in a fist fight... which is utter crap.

 

If you are afraid of the Stun Lotto... remove it... don't work around it. I don't even remember it exists until one of you remind me about it. I left it behind years ago.

 

Well, a bulletproof vest will definitely help against normal attacks: most of them contain some sort of padding (the vests, not the normal attacks) at the very least, which will absorb some of the impact.

 

I agree though that it will be far less effective against certain types of damage. It shouldn't be a whole heap of use against knives and probably about half value against blunt trauma. It would certainly absorb a good part of the energy from a punch and a lot of the sting from a baseball bat.

 

So the Armour part had the limitation 'only against bullets' which would be somewhere between -1/2 and -1 depending on frequency of bullets.

 

That would mean your bulletproof vest is useless against knives and arrows and adds +6pd against normal attacks and 4/10 rPD/PD against bullets. You can obviously tinker with the exact proportions of rPD and PD and what they are effective against until you get something you are happy with.

 

I know it leaves quite a lot of ink on the paper, but that's the price you pay to model a real-world item in a realistic way. Well, reasonably realistic: truth be told I haven't tried whacking someone wearing a bulletproof vest with a baseball bat. Looks like the weekend's going to be interesting...

 

I like your approach to the STUN lotto (DIE!), but I'm a sucker for the rules as written. In practice it isn't a problem: whilst I haven't removed it from the rules, I've removed killing attacks from most of my games.

[OddHat]

Re: Armor = Normal Damage

 

Well, a bulletproof vest will definitely help against normal attacks: most of them contain some sort of padding (the vests, not the normal attacks) at the very least, which will absorb some of the impact.

 

I agree though that it will be far less effective against certain types of damage. It shouldn't be a whole heap of use against knives and probably about half value against blunt trauma. It would certainly absorb a good part of the energy from a punch and a lot of the sting from a baseball bat.

 

So the Armour part had the limitation 'only against bullets' which would be somewhere between -1/2 and -1 depending on frequency of bullets.

 

That would mean your bulletproof vest is useless against knives and arrows and adds +6pd against normal attacks and 4/10 rPD/PD against bullets. You can obviously tinker with the exact proportions of rPD and PD and what they are effective against until you get something you are happy with.

 

I know it leaves quite a lot of ink on the paper, but that's the price you pay to model a real-world item in a realistic way.

 

I've read about cases where ordinary sweaters and jackets stopped knife attacks from getting through. A bullet proof vest might work, depending on the type of vest.

 

Reality is complicated.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Armor = Normal Damage

 

I've read about cases where ordinary sweaters and jackets stopped knife attacks from getting through. A bullet proof vest might work, depending on the type of vest.

 

Reality is complicated.

 

No, reality is simple, there's just a lot of it

[Saxondog]

Re: Armor = Normal Damage

 

A few years ago, there was a fellow around here who was on the police force and played with our local SCA group. He showed up at fighter practice in his vest. He thought if it could stop a bullet, it would be good for our combat as well. For those who don't know. we use rattan, 1.25" thick or more. One swing, not full force, across the gut and he had second thoughts. It took the wind right out of him. Game terms.... he was stunned. A simple stick, 3.5' foot long, swung by a friend, took him out.

 

It would stop most hand gun rounds and most likely a knife as well but the blunt impact was not stopped much. Made for an interesting experiment anyway. He wore his leather and pads the next week.

[Force]

Re: Armor = Normal Damage

 

I've read about cases where ordinary sweaters and jackets stopped knife attacks from getting through. A bullet proof vest might work, depending on the type of vest.

 

Reality is complicated.

 

Ballistic vests are only truly effective vs low-medium velocity, low mass blunt objects/projectiles.

 

It won't protect you from blunt force trauma or a knife, unless it has been formed into a hard balistic armor via other materials and adhesives or if the device has trauma plates.

 

That's it in a nutshell.

 

This goes back to my comments made in the recent 'normal' thread when the discussion got sidetracked on the DEF of an M1A1 mbt. The hero system allows complex power constructs without really dealing with how certain types of attacks compare to certain types of armor.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Armor = Normal Damage

 

Ballistic vests are only truly effective vs low-medium velocity' date=' low mass [i']blunt[/i] objects/projectiles.

 

It won't protect you from blunt force trauma or a knife, unless it has been formed into a hard balistic armor via other materials and adhesives or if the device has trauma plates.

 

That's it in a nutshell.

 

This goes back to my comments made in the recent 'normal' thread when the discussion got sidetracked on the DEF of an M1A1 mbt. The hero system allows complex power constructs without really dealing with how certain types of attacks compare to certain types of armor.

 

The rules do: the source material doesn't - you CAN build armour that does exactly what you want, but HERO doesn't. Frankly I doubt whether any system does this really well: there's probably no consistent data on how 120mm shells act on human bodies as compared to tank armour - it's all guesses.

[Brother Jim]

Re: Armor = Normal Damage

 

i'm guessing that the human body will react badly to a 120mm round passing through it......or even grazing it.