Sweep + 2-weapon fighting

[Herolover]

Hello all.

 

I thought I understood this, but re-reading the rules I am starting to question myself.

 

The situation.

2-Weapon fighting man is facing two nobodies.

 

How many attacks does 2-weapon fighting man get on his phase?

 

One with each weapon? Can he sweep (make multiple attacks with each weapon?)

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Sweep + 2-weapon fighting

 

Hello all.

 

I thought I understood this, but re-reading the rules I am starting to question myself.

 

Never a bad thing....go ahead.

 

The situation.

2-Weapon fighting man is facing two nobodies.

 

okay...

 

How many attacks does 2-weapon fighting man get on his phase?

 

As many as he wants and his OCV can handle...

 

One with each weapon?

 

Yep!

 

Can he sweep (make multiple attacks with each weapon?)

 

Sure!

 

Okay, now that I'm done with my vague answers, let me clarify this for you:

 

Sweep and Two Weapon Combat are the same thing.

 

To clarify a bit more, Two Weapon Combat is a variation on the Sweep Maneuver. What TWC consists of, is limited Ambidexterity (only for wielding X weapons in off hand) and 2 skill levels with Sweep w/X weapons. This allows a character with the TWC skill to perform a Sweep attack to hit twice with no off-hand penalty. Characters who use TWC are still subject to the same penalties that users of the Sweep and Rapid Fire maneuvers are (1/2DCV, full phase action, if any strikes miss subsequent attacks are forfeit). Since TWC is the same as the Sweep maneuver, characters can use TWC to perform more than 2 attacks, and accrue OCV penalties accordingly. (-2 for 3 attacks, -4 for 4 attacks etc)

Thus in your example above of the character with TWC facing 2 thugs, yes he could use TWC to attack twice with each weapon for a total OCV penalty of -4, full phase action and 1/2DCV...

 

Now, before you ask "If TWC is simply a variation on Sweep, why did they even include it?" I'll answer:

Because some GM's may not want to normally allow Sweep and Rapid Fire in their campaigns, but allow a character who purchases Two Weapon Combat skill (for a hefty 10pts) to do so...but only if they purchase the skill.

 

And there you have it.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Sweep + 2-weapon fighting

 

Actually with TWF and Rapid shot the character has a -2 to DCV can make sweeps or Rapid fires as half phase actions and can make as many actions as he wants and his OCV can handle.

 

I *love* this game.

 

Hawksmoor

[Herolover]

Re: Sweep + 2-weapon fighting

 

Thanks. That is the way I understood it as well and the way I have been running it. I just was thinking to much I think.

 

 

Here is a question however. 2-weapon man is using

1) Longsword.

2) shortsword.

 

Now obviously they do different damage. So 2-Weapon man attacks the two nobodies twice each. That is four attacks. How do you decide which weapon hit?

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Sweep + 2-weapon fighting

 

Actually with TWF and Rapid shot the character has a -2 to DCV can make sweeps or Rapid fires as half phase actions and can make as many actions as he wants and his OCV can handle.

 

Do you mean the Rapid Attack skill?

 

If so, then all that does for you is turn Rapid Fire or Sweep into a 1/2 Phase action, allowing a character to half-move (or any other half-phase action thats not an attack) before performing a Sweep or Rapid Fire maneuver. It does not reduce the DCV penalty. The characters DCV is still halved.

 

I *love* this game.

 

Hawksmoor

 

You and me both.

 

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Sweep + 2-weapon fighting

 

Thanks. That is the way I understood it as well and the way I have been running it. I just was thinking to much I think.

 

Bah. No such thing as thinking too much.

 

Here is a question however. 2-weapon man is using

1) Longsword.

2) shortsword.

 

Now obviously they do different damage. So 2-Weapon man attacks the two nobodies twice each. That is four attacks. How do you decide which weapon hit?

 

The person attacking determines that. He/She determines which weapons are attacking when. Using the 4-attack example above, the character could concievably:

 

1: Attack 2 w/longsword and 2 w/shortsword

2: Attack 1 w/Longsword and 3 w/shortsword

3: Attack 3 w/longsword and 1 w/shortsword

4: Attack 0 w/longsword and 4 w/shortsword

5: Attack 4 w/longsword and 0 w/shortsword.

 

Don't forget that Sweep/Rapid Fire aren't "exclusive" maneuvers, which means they can be mixed and matched with other Standard, Optional and Martial maneuvers aside from the general "Strike" maneuver. This includes Grab, Throw, Disarm, Bind etc. The only restriction is that Defensive maneuvers cannot be mixed with offensive maneuvers (you can't Strike/Block with Sweep) and there are some few maneuvers that aren't compatible with Sweep, such as Haymaker (for obvious reasons)

 

Thus, using that to our PC's advantage, the character could use his Longsword to Bind an enemy's weapon (disallowing him to counterattack) then attack his foe 3 times with his shortsword! Or disarm then strike multiple times etc. The options are near-limitless...

[Dust Raven]

Re: Sweep + 2-weapon fighting

 

On the topic of what weapon makes what strike...

 

Technically, when you have two weapons, you can make a Multiple Power Attack if attacking the same target, and have no penalty. Not even an off-hand penalty. So if the GM allows this, and you have a longsword and a shortsword, you can just strike a single target with one attack roll and do damage with both weapons. I'm not sure how it merges with Sweep, but I think you can Sweep a MPA, striking two HTH targets with each weapon, and only have a -2 OCV penalty (or none with Two Weapon Fighting) because you are only making two attack rolls.

 

Now, this is just from what I've read in 5E. I don't know if 5ER cleans this up at all.

[Herolover]

Re: Sweep + 2-weapon fighting

 

Once again thanks for all the replies. For those that want to know I am using this is a Fantasy Hero campaign.

 

Two Weapon fighting does reduce the penalty to DCV to just a -2.

 

Dust Raven.

It is up to the GM about the use of MPA's, but I think you are right. The way I read it you could do that. I, however, don't see me ever allowing this because I think it would be way out balancing, at least for my Fantasy Hero campaign.

 

I also, was thinking that it was the players choice on what weapon hit. However, I don't like this because if the player has a good weapon and an average weapon why ever choose to hit with the average weapon?

 

So far I have been running it that 2-weapon man gets two attacks with this "good" hand and two attacks with his "off-hand." The way I am going to run is that the first attack is at -0 OCV (he has two weapon fighting) and all other attacks after that are at -2 OCV cumulative.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Sweep + 2-weapon fighting

 

Actually I suggest you reread 5ER pg 73-74 for clarification NsG. The reduction in DCV penalty is listed as the second benefit for games that allow Rapid Fire and Sweep manuvers. Further it recommends that if reducing the DCV by -2 would half or come close to halving the DCV the penalty should be reduced to -1.

 

Hawksmoor

[Dust Raven]

Re: Sweep + 2-weapon fighting

 

Actually I suggest you reread 5ER pg 73-74 for clarification NsG. The reduction in DCV penalty is listed as the second benefit for games that allow Rapid Fire and Sweep manuvers. Further it recommends that if reducing the DCV by -2 would half or come close to halving the DCV the penalty should be reduced to -1.

 

Hawksmoor

 

This was changed in 5ER? That sucks!

 

I need to get 5ER, but I'm afraid if I do I'll never want to play the game again.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Sweep + 2-weapon fighting

 

Here is a question however. 2-weapon man is using

1) Longsword.

2) shortsword.

 

Now obviously they do different damage. So 2-Weapon man attacks the two nobodies twice each. That is four attacks. How do you decide which weapon hit?

Given the inherent Limitation that is part of Two Weapon Fighting, I would say that if you want to use this Skill, you may not strike another time with any weapon until you have struck again with all other weapons involved in the maneuver. For your example, that would mean the character could start with either the longsword or shortsword, but his next attack will have to be with the other, then back to the first weapon used, etc. If the longsword is the, "better," weapon, then the natural progression would thus be: longsword, shortsword, longsword, shortsword....

[prestidigitator]

Re: Sweep + 2-weapon fighting

 

This was changed in 5ER? That sucks!

 

I need to get 5ER, but I'm afraid if I do I'll never want to play the game again.

Ditto.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Sweep + 2-weapon fighting

 

Actually I suggest you reread 5ER pg 73-74 for clarification NsG. The reduction in DCV penalty is listed as the second benefit for games that allow Rapid Fire and Sweep manuvers. Further it recommends that if reducing the DCV by -2 would half or come close to halving the DCV the penalty should be reduced to -1.

 

Hawksmoor

 

Ah. I don't have revised. I'm ignoring that rule. I have my own benefits that I apply to TWC.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Sweep + 2-weapon fighting

 

Once again thanks for all the replies. For those that want to know I am using this is a Fantasy Hero campaign.

 

Two Weapon fighting does reduce the penalty to DCV to just a -2.

 

I was just informed. I don't have revised, so bear with me.

 

Dust Raven.

It is up to the GM about the use of MPA's, but I think you are right. The way I read it you could do that. I, however, don't see me ever allowing this because I think it would be way out balancing, at least for my Fantasy Hero campaign.

 

Smart move. Allowing MPA and Sweep/Rapid Fire in the same action is simply overkill. MPA or Sweep/Rapid Fire on their own can be game-breakers if you have the wrong kind of players in your group (as I discovered recently playing Champions. Unrestricted use of OEnd Energy Blast, Ranged Martial Arts [Offensive shot, no less] and Rapid Fire was far too powerful) to mix and match them would be madness, unless you were playing in some of the more Over-the-Top type of Wuxia or Anime style campaigns.

 

I also, was thinking that it was the players choice on what weapon hit. However, I don't like this because if the player has a good weapon and an average weapon why ever choose to hit with the average weapon?

 

One could reasonably rule that since the attacks are based on the Two Weapon Fighting skill, you would have to make at least 1 attack with the off-weapon. Taking this further, one could rule that odd/even attacks are more likely to be made alternating good-hand/off-hand. Thus in the example above, attacks would go: Longsword-Shortsword-Longsword-Shortsword. That way if a character atacks only 3 times, the Longsword hits twice and the shortsword once. If the character attacks 4 times, they both hit twice...I wouldn't go this far, but I would make the character attack with his off-hand weapon at least once.

 

One of the things that I do is include the skill WF: Off-hand in the Two Weapon Fighting skill purchase (that is if they purchase TWF, they get WF: Off-hand for free). This means if the character with TWF isn't using their second weapon to attack, they gain a +1DCV bonus (similar to having a bucklar shield). However, they lose that DCV bonus if they use it to attack using TWF. With this method, a character wielding two weapons could use a normal Sweep attack with his primary weapon, to hit multiple times and still recieve the +1 DCV bonus, but they would use the normal rules for Sweep, not the modified rules for TWF...

 

So far I have been running it that 2-weapon man gets two attacks with this "good" hand and two attacks with his "off-hand." The way I am going to run is that the first attack is at -0 OCV (he has two weapon fighting) and all other attacks after that are at -2 OCV cumulative.

 

You do realize that the cumulative OCV penalty applies to all the attacks in the combo don't you?

With TWF, a character gets 2 strikes at no penalty (-0 OCV). A 3rd strike applies a -2 OCV penalty to all three strikes. A 4th strike adds a -4 OCV penalty to all 4 strikes etc, etc.

[Silbeg]

Re: Sweep + 2-weapon fighting

 

Given the inherent Limitation that is part of Two Weapon Fighting' date=' I would say that if you want to use this Skill, you may not strike another time with any weapon until you have struck again with all other weapons involved in the maneuver. For your example, that would mean the character could start with either the longsword or shortsword, but his next attack will have to be with the other, then back to the first weapon used, etc. If the longsword is the, "better," weapon, then the natural progression would thus be: longsword, shortsword, longsword, shortsword....[/quote']

 

I would definately agree with that myself.

[Black Rose]

Re: Sweep + 2-weapon fighting

 

Given the inherent Limitation that is part of Two Weapon Fighting' date=' I would say that if you want to use this Skill, you may not strike another time with any weapon until you have struck again with all other weapons involved in the maneuver. For your example, that would mean the character could start with either the longsword or shortsword, but his next attack will have to be with the other, then back to the first weapon used, etc. If the longsword is the, "better," weapon, then the natural progression would thus be: longsword, shortsword, longsword, shortsword....[/quote']

 

I wouldn't say struck. Say rather Acted. So long as you do something with it, you're good. Heck, I'd even allow a player to pull a RRLL, instead of the RLRL we're discussing, provided the reasoning seemed sound.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Sweep + 2-weapon fighting

 

I wouldn't say struck. Say rather Acted. So long as you do something with it' date=' you're good.[/quote']

Yes...except that I believe all attacks within a Sweep must be identical, so if you Strike with the first attack, you must Strike (not Disarm, Grab--if appropriate--etc.) with all the others. I could be wrong; if so, I would tend to agree with you.

 

Heck, I'd even allow a player to pull a RRLL, instead of the RLRL we're discussing, provided the reasoning seemed sound.

I believe your Sweep always ends with the first attack that misses (is that right?), in which case it could make a big difference. Given that assumption, I might allow it, too, given some good situational reasoning, but I'd say it would not be my default.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Sweep + 2-weapon fighting

 

I would just ask the player to declair how many attacks he's performing with each weapon and against which target, and to list what order he's doing them in. The only restriction I'd place is that he can't use a weapon more than once more than the other (no three longsword with only one shortsword strikes). These strikes can be in any order, so long as he's declaired all of them, pain any applicable END for them and is taking the penalties for them. So if he's doing five attacks (a -6 penalty with TWF), and wants to strike three times with the longsword and twice with the shortsword, he can easily declair he's making all of his longsword strikes first. He's getting the full penalties no matter what order they are in.

 

I'd only put this restriction if the character is using TWF though. He can Sweep a single weapon or two weapons however many times he wants if he isn't getting the TWF bonus.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Sweep + 2-weapon fighting

 

I'd only put this restriction if the character is using TWF though. He can Sweep a single weapon or two weapons however many times he wants if he isn't getting the TWF bonus.

Oh certainly! Any restrictions I would place on the composition and/or order of a Sweep with two weapons would be because of the inherent Limitations of TWF. Of course, without using TWF, there may be little reason for using two weapons at all in a Sweep (I guess they could have significantly different affects; like one of them might be poisoned, or have a much better chance of hitting but do less damage).