Limited Life Support

[Vondy]

I'm building a character who has an advanced immune system and adaptive biochemistry. Among the effects are immunity to diseases/bioweapons and poisoins/chemical agents. The problem I have is that the way life support works, its all or nothing. Either you're immune or your not. I wanted the character's body to have to adapt to the new element. Arbitrarily, I decided this would take ~20 minutes.

 

I came up with:

 

Adaptive Immune System: Immune to Diseases/Bio-Agents, Gradual Effect 20 Minutes (-1)

Adaptive Biochemistry: Immune to Poisons/Chem-Weapons, Gradual Effect 20 Minutes (-1)

 

The general idea is that the poison might put them down temporarily, or they may become violently ill before their immune system catches up, but then they're up and running again.

 

Does this seem like a sensible construct?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Limited Life Support

 

It looks good to me.

 

I'd probably do it a bit differently. Those LS could be bought with RSR: CON Roll and Extra Time (rather than gradual effect). If you make the CON Roll, the LS kicks in one step on the time chart later than the Extra Time (because of the -1 to the roll). For every point it's made by, it moves up one step sooner.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Limited Life Support

 

Yeah. Nice ideas, all the way around.

[Fox1]

Re: Limited Life Support

 

I believe that you'll need to combine it with some form of Healing. As is I think the power will eventually make you immune- but that won't recover the damage.

[Vondy]

Re: Limited Life Support

 

I believe that you'll need to combine it with some form of Healing. As is I think the power will eventually make you immune- but that won't recover the damage.

 

So, you maintain, to get the effect of a 10 point power: I need to buy healing (regeneration), with ressurection (since it might kill them in the interim), versus a limited damage type. This seems overly complex and expensive when I could just spend 10 points (with no convoluted construct) and be completely immune to the effects from the get go without being affected at all. Being a little sick in the interim, or falling unconscious seems like a concession to the special effects.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Limited Life Support

 

So' date=' you maintain, to get the effect of a 10 point power: I need to buy healing (regeneration), with ressurection (since it might kill them in the interim), versus a limited damage type. This seems overly complex and expensive when I could just spend 10 points (with no convoluted construct) and be completely immune to the effects from the get go without being affected at all. Being a little sick in the interim, or falling unconscious seems like a concession to the special effects.[/quote']

 

Yeah, but technically he's right. Ultimately though, you aren't spending 10 points (well, 20 for both) on that LS. You are spending far less after Limitations. Personally, I wouldn't charge any more than the difference between the final cost of the LS and the unmodified cost of the LS for the Regen though. Probably less actually (and it could probably be worked out the less with the right Limitations).

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Limited Life Support

 

Yeah' date=' but technically he's right. Ultimately though, you aren't spending 10 points (well, 20 for both) on that LS. You are spending far less after Limitations. Personally, I wouldn't charge any more than the difference between the final cost of the LS and the unmodified cost of the LS for the Regen though. Probably less actually (and it could probably be worked out the less with the right Limitations).[/quote']

 

uh... no. Gradual effect means that by the rules the damage has already been done (or in this case, prevented), but it's effects are delayed. Frankly, it's pretty much a custom limitation anyway, so yes dammit, it does work!

[prestidigitator]

Re: Limited Life Support

 

uh... no. Gradual effect means that by the rules the damage has already been done (or in this case' date=' prevented), but it's effects are delayed. Frankly, it's pretty much a custom limitation anyway, so yes dammit, it does work![/quote']

He has a point there, DR. I'd probably have to think about it rather carefully if I were GMing. It might depend a bit on the SFX and the intent the player had when creating the Power.

[Black Rose]

Re: Limited Life Support

 

I'd just throw "Character 'Suffers' Effects For Twenty Minutes Before LS 'Kicks In'" and make it whatever the GM is willing to let you get away with (I'd say -1/4, maybe -1/2). You're only temporarily inconvenienced, after all. Now, as far as in combat goes, you're screwed; you might as well not have the LS at all.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Limited Life Support

 

uh... no. Gradual effect means that by the rules the damage has already been done (or in this case' date=' prevented), but it's effects are delayed. Frankly, it's pretty much a custom limitation anyway, so yes dammit, it does work![/quote']

He has a point there' date=' DR. I'd probably have to think about it rather carefully if I were GMing. It might depend a bit on the SFX and the intent the player had when creating the Power.[/quote']

 

Wasn't I just agreeing? Maybe I wasn't.

 

Are you saying that because he's using Gradual Effect, he has completely negated the effects of the attacks the LS would protect against, but because it takes a while to set in he'll take damage while it does, but as soon as it does it's like he never took damage? Automatically healed?

 

Isn't that kinda like saying an attack with Gradual Effect won't kick in for a while, but once it does it will be like the character was dead or unconscious or whatever the whole time, even though he wasn't?

 

In any case, I don't think Gradual Effect works for non Attack Powers. There's nothing to grad otherwise.

[Vondy]

Re: Limited Life Support

 

Wasn't I just agreeing? Maybe I wasn't.

 

Are you saying that because he's using Gradual Effect, he has completely negated the effects of the attacks the LS would protect against, but because it takes a while to set in he'll take damage while it does, but as soon as it does it's like he never took damage? Automatically healed?

 

Isn't that kinda like saying an attack with Gradual Effect won't kick in for a while, but once it does it will be like the character was dead or unconscious or whatever the whole time, even though he wasn't?

 

In any case, I don't think Gradual Effect works for non Attack Powers. There's nothing to grad otherwise.

 

You could take it from the other direction. The character is immune to the effects from the outset - the attack never really hurt them - but because the power is gradual we pretend it did in the short term to satisfy SFX requirements and story tropes, which is why I put a lim on the power at all. Instead of gradually applying the damage, we gradually remove the pretend-damage. I really don't like regeneration as its written in Fred at all, let alone having to slap ressurection on it, and lims beyond the already convoluted healing mess to simulate what should be a very simple and minimal effect. Its like using an elephant gun to shoot a duck. Without the lim the character is completely immune no matter what. We can simulate the exact same thing (pretend damage being removed) with:

 

Adaptive Immune System: Immune to Diseases/Bio-Agents, Side Effects (Character May Become Temporarily Ill or Incapacitated) (-1)

Adaptive Biochemistry: Immune to Poisons/Chem-Weapons, Side Effects (Character May Become Temporarily Ill or Incapacitated) (-1)

 

The amount of hand waving you have to do is no different because the side effects have to be broad enough fit any possible disease or toxin; and in the latter one, since its not gradual effect or extra-time, there is no time element so its all very vague and unclear.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Limited Life Support

 

You could take it from the other direction. The character is immune to the effects from the outset - the attack never really hurt them - but because the power is gradual we pretend it did in the short term to satisfy SFX requirements and story tropes, which is why I put a lim on the power at all. Instead of gradually applying the damage, we gradually remove the pretend-damage. I really don't like regeneration as its written in Fred at all, let alone having to slap ressurection on it, and lims beyond the already convoluted healing mess to simulate what should be a very simple and minimal effect. Its like using an elephant gun to shoot a duck. Without the lim the character is completely immune no matter what. We can simulate the exact same thing (pretend damage being removed) with:

 

Adaptive Immune System: Immune to Diseases/Bio-Agents, Side Effects (Character May Become Temporarily Ill or Incapacitated) (-1)

Adaptive Biochemistry: Immune to Poisons/Chem-Weapons, Side Effects (Character May Become Temporarily Ill or Incapacitated) (-1)

 

The amount of hand waving you have to do is no different because the side effects have to be broad enough fit any possible disease or toxin; and in the latter one, since its not gradual effect or extra-time, there is no time element so its all very vague and unclear.

 

So what you are saying is that if he's hit with a poison that kills instantly (or within seconds) he will up and die, start to rot, but then suddenly become all better after lunch?

[Fox1]

Re: Limited Life Support

 

So what you are saying is that if he's hit with a poison that kills instantly (or within seconds) he will up and die' date=' start to rot, but then suddenly become all better after lunch?[/quote']

 

 

This is actually the PoV I was coming from. If the immunity takes a while to deal with the problem that means you're taking real damage from that problem in the meantime.

 

I'd buy the gradual effect down from 20 minutes, and buy a low grade healing who's time to fix the damage (i.e. repair the entire character) adds up to about 20 minutes.

 

And forget coming back from the dead, if you're dead before it kicks in you should be dead.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Limited Life Support

 

You could take it from the other direction. The character is immune to the effects from the outset - the attack never really hurt them - but because the power is gradual we pretend it did in the short term to satisfy SFX requirements and story tropes, which is why I put a lim on the power at all. Instead of gradually applying the damage, we gradually remove the pretend-damage. I really don't like regeneration as its written in Fred at all, let alone having to slap ressurection on it, and lims beyond the already convoluted healing mess to simulate what should be a very simple and minimal effect. Its like using an elephant gun to shoot a duck. Without the lim the character is completely immune no matter what. We can simulate the exact same thing (pretend damage being removed) with:

 

Adaptive Immune System: Immune to Diseases/Bio-Agents, Side Effects (Character May Become Temporarily Ill or Incapacitated) (-1)

Adaptive Biochemistry: Immune to Poisons/Chem-Weapons, Side Effects (Character May Become Temporarily Ill or Incapacitated) (-1)

 

The amount of hand waving you have to do is no different because the side effects have to be broad enough fit any possible disease or toxin; and in the latter one, since its not gradual effect or extra-time, there is no time element so its all very vague and unclear.

I think this is the best way to achieve the effect you're after, although I question whether it really justifies a full -1. I would think -½ is more in line with the benefits gained. But that's really up to the GM.

[Fox1]

Re: Limited Life Support

 

Adaptive Immune System: Immune to Diseases/Bio-Agents, Side Effects (Character May Become Temporarily Ill or Incapacitated) (-1)

Adaptive Biochemistry: Immune to Poisons/Chem-Weapons, Side Effects (Character May Become Temporarily Ill or Incapacitated) (-1)

 

I personally wouldn't let those limits go. After all the point of some of the stuff you're defending against is to make you Temporarily Ill or Incapacitated.

 

How about a normal LS that takes effect at once- with a side effect. You don't take actual damage from the attack, but you get a fever/chills- i.e. stun/little body drain. Since it's a Drain, it will heal on it's own in whatever time span you wish.

 

There. Done. I'm happy.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Limited Life Support

 

Wasn't I just agreeing? Maybe I wasn't.

 

Are you saying that because he's using Gradual Effect, he has completely negated the effects of the attacks the LS would protect against, but because it takes a while to set in he'll take damage while it does, but as soon as it does it's like he never took damage? Automatically healed?

 

Isn't that kinda like saying an attack with Gradual Effect won't kick in for a while, but once it does it will be like the character was dead or unconscious or whatever the whole time, even though he wasn't?

 

In any case, I don't think Gradual Effect works for non Attack Powers. There's nothing to grad otherwise.

 

An attack with Gradual Effect will be "Instantly Lethal", but take time to actually kill them. But once it's over, they've taken the full damage that was rolled.

 

A defense with Gradual Effect would be "Instantly Immune", but take time to actually nullify all the effects.

 

In both cases once the time is up the time is up. At that point the status of the character is as it would be if the limitation had not been taken; either dead, or alive (dead for attack, alive for defense).

[Dust Raven]

Re: Limited Life Support

 

An attack with Gradual Effect will be "Instantly Lethal"' date=' but take time to actually kill them. But once it's over, they've taken the full damage that was rolled.[/quote']

 

That doesn't make any sense, and doesn't even jive with the description for Gradual Effect. The whole point of that Limitation is that the target takes damage over time, and can do something about it while it's happening. By your interpretation, if a character is hit with a poison attack will hill kill him by the end of the day, he has no hope. No anti venom, cure or method of reversing the damage exists. He'll simply die when the Effect is done, because he was killed when the attack took place and just doesn't know it yet.

 

That's loony.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Limited Life Support

 

So what you are saying is that if he's hit with a poison that kills instantly (or within seconds) he will up and die' date=' start to rot, but then suddenly become all better after lunch?[/quote']

I would still use the Gradual Effect. With an attack that has Gradual Effect, the damage hasn't exactly, "already been done," but it has already been scheduled. It will be done once the duration is complete (as long as the method of turning it off hasn't been employed), and at the end of that duration, it will be as if the attack had just been performed (i.e. only the whole application of the attack has to overcome defenses, not each incremental point of damage).

 

Life Support effectively negates damage from a hazardous condition. You could think of it as an instantaneous Healing that exactly equals the amount of damage done, if it helps. So draw this effect out over a period of time, and I would say that yes, the damage is, "undone." The character gradually recovers from any adverse affects of the hazardous condition. If you wanted to retain the damage, the Life Support should be built with Extra Time instead of Gradual Effect.

 

Now, that isn't to say that the damage isn't real until the Life Support wears it away, nor that Gradual Effect would bring back the character from the dead. Drain Body can kill someone, even if it now (since 5E) has a Fade Rate; the target doesn't miraculously resurrect once the Body damage fades away. Likewise, I would say the damage (or effect) from a Gradual Effect attack can be healed (through Healing, not natural Recovery) before the time period elapses, but this will not (necessarily) keep the rest of the damage from being done. Death turns off even Persistent Powers IMHO (with very rare exceptions such as Resurrectional Regeneration, some Triggers, Armor that has the SFX of being a really tough/dense body, some Powers with Foci, etc.), so if the character suffers enough damage in addition to the STILL ACTIVE environmental damage to cause death, the character is dead. Period. If you truly want to overcome that death, I would say a Limited form of Resurrection Regeneration is necessary.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Limited Life Support

 

To me it seems reasonable that if the toxin or disease is so virulent it kills in less than 20 minutes then it might still kill the character before his Immunity kicks in. But very few poison attacks would actually be that lethal, and any disease that killed in mere minutes would be have to be alien or "super" in some other way anyway and so logically this Immunity wouldn't apply anyway. But most poisons are bought as Continuous Uncontrolled attacks and are not all that many dice; counting on their long time factor to eventually overwhelm the victim.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Limited Life Support

 

I would still use the Gradual Effect. With an attack that has Gradual Effect' date=' the damage hasn't exactly, "already been done," but it has already been scheduled. It [i']will[/i] be done once the duration is complete (as long as the method of turning it off hasn't been employed), and at the end of that duration, it will be as if the attack had just been performed (i.e. only the whole application of the attack has to overcome defenses, not each incremental point of damage).

 

Life Support effectively negates damage from a hazardous condition. You could think of it as an instantaneous Healing that exactly equals the amount of damage done, if it helps. So draw this effect out over a period of time, and I would say that yes, the damage is, "undone." The character gradually recovers from any adverse affects of the hazardous condition. If you wanted to retain the damage, the Life Support should be built with Extra Time instead of Gradual Effect.

 

The problem with this is it opens precident for buying Gradual Effect on FF and Armor. You get hit with an attack, but then the Armor kicks in and the damage vanishes. Damage vanishing is Healing or natural recovery and nothing else in my opinion.

[Fox1]

Re: Limited Life Support

 

Snort, people passed by my suggestion. Oh well.

 

Best take it to the official Question forum. I'm siding with Dust Raven on this- you can't use gradual effect this way. We've reached an impass on reasoning. Get a offical call.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Limited Life Support

 

The problem with this is it opens precident for buying Gradual Effect on FF and Armor. You get hit with an attack' date=' but then the Armor kicks in and the damage vanishes. Damage vanishing is Healing or natural recovery and nothing else in my opinion.[/quote']

LOL. If you want to buy Gradual Effect on your Armor, feel free. It's not going to help you any in the short term. Regeneration isn't much more expensive, and doesn't have a "cap" like retroactive defenses would in any case. Also, if you take enough damage to die, you die.

 

What about Drains? Do you use the 4th ed. rules for Draining Body, Stun, and End, where the Fade Rate doesn't apply because you have natural Recovery?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Limited Life Support

 

Snort, people passed by my suggestion. Oh well.

 

Best take it to the official Question forum. I'm siding with Dust Raven on this- you can't use gradual effect this way. We've reached an impass on reasoning. Get a offical call.

I didn't miss it. I think if you are going to buy the Healing/Regeneration, it would be more appropriate to take Extra Time on the Life Support instead of Gradual Effect (maybe even different levels on the Time Chart for different portions of it, though Life Support immunities don't usually have partial effect for fractions of the cost). I still think the Gradual Effect could work, though.

 

Asking Steve Long? Cool. It will be interesting to hear his opinion on the matter, too, though I'm not sure it will change my own. I think what we are runnning into are interpretations that can and should vary from GM to GM, which is fine. It is still good to describe your reasoning and point out aspects that might not have occurred to others, though.

[Fox1]

Re: Limited Life Support

 

I didn't miss it. I think if you are going to buy the Healing/Regeneration' date=' it would be more appropriate to take Extra Time on the Life Support instead of Gradual Effect [/quote']

 

Looks like you did miss it, my second suggestion didn't have healing/Regeneration as part of it at all. No extra point cost from anything in fact.

 

Extra Time likely wouldn't work since it's subject to being interrupted (the book claims all such powers must be subject to interruption) and I don't think we want that here.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Limited Life Support

 

Snort, people passed by my suggestion. Oh well.

 

Best take it to the official Question forum. I'm siding with Dust Raven on this- you can't use gradual effect this way. We've reached an impass on reasoning. Get a offical call.

 

The LS with Side Effect? I looks like a good idea except I'd probably make it a Variable Limitation (only Side Effects), that way you (rather, the GM) can taylor the Side Effect to match the attack/effect.